Guest guest Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 >Greg Livingston, who is also a CHA r, has been quite diligent in >his Chinese language studies for the past five years and might have other light to >shed on this subject. I know he has given me sound advice. >It would be good to hear from others about their experiences with Chinese >language learning and future goals. > >Jeffrey Chapman As Jeff mentioned, I've been studying Chinese pretty seriously for the last five years. The first two years were in China, and I've kept up my studies since returning to the US three years ago. It helps a lot (understatement!) that my wife, Huiyu, is Chinese and has a Bachelor's from Beijing TCM University. As for shedding light on the subject, I may not be the most qualified person on this list to do that, but I can give the group an idea of what I've done if that's of use to anyone here. I started with Unschuld's Learn to Read Medical Chinese books (I never really used Vol. 2) as well as some standard texts for learning common, everyday Chinese. I also got a set of the standard TCM textbooks used in China (Shanghai Ke Xue Ji Xu Chu Ban She- those green paperback books used in most if not all TCM schools in China) and started plugging away at a couple of them with dictionary in hand. Then I spent a lot of time in the clinic in a sink or swim situation since mostly I had no translator. I spent many hours a day looking things up in the dictionary. I also spent a lot of time writing each day, mainly copying the lessons from various text books, or copying the text of the CM Basic Theory book, etc. I'd say the first six months in China I was struggling hard, but learning pretty fast. Once I had a bit of a base though, I began to learn much more quickly and easily and continue to do so. The first phase may be the most difficult and slow going, but once you have some fundamentals it's faster and easier, and more fun and interesting, obviously. As for what I do now.... I pretty much only bother with TCM texts in Chinese (I can't afford the English books, even if I wanted them!), so I'm constantly reading Chinese. I spend time writing every day as well. I have a bunch of fountain pen calligraphy books that are used to help develop good handwriting, and I practice with those a bit everyday. They have nicely written characters on the main pages with built in tracing paper pages to write on. This is a must if you desire decent looking hand writing. Even if I didn't care about good handwriting, I feel it's important to write everyday as this aids me in retention of the characters as well as the content of what I'm writing. I also spend a fair amount of time speaking Chinese each day with Huiyu and an old TCM doctor here that I study with. So that's about it. It's been a lot of work, but it's definitely been worth it. I would concur with other's on this list who feel that learning Chinese made a big difference in their understanding of CM, and development as a practitioner. I've only been out of school for five years and am far from being a master practitioner, but I've occasionally met with some of my classmates, and I know for sure that I'm way ahead of most of them. This is in part due to the two years in China, and in part due to access to materials and teachers that they don't have. In my humble opinion, I do feel learning Chinese is absolutely necessary to go to the next level. Not so much because there's so much hidden meaning in the characters (although there is some), but mainly, I feel, because there's just so much that hasn't been translated. Also, certain things do get confusing when translated because of terminology problems and misunderstandings, etc, but that seems to be on the mend. Of course all of this is just my personal opinion based on my limited experience and is subject to change. :-) Anyway, I'll stop rambling. Hope that may be of use to someone. :-) Happy studying! Greg Greg A. Livingston, L.Ac. 121-1/2 11th Ave San Francisco, CA 94118 (415) 752-3557 shanren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 , Greg Livingston < shanren@c...> wrote: I do feel learning Chinese is absolutely necessary to go > to the next level. Not so much because there's so much hidden meaning in > the characters (although there is some), but mainly, I feel, because > there's just so much that hasn't been translated. I am glad there are people like you with the ability and inclination to do this, however, the argument can equally be made that an adavanced understanding of western science, osteopathy, naturopathy, etc. can also advance one to the " next " level. It all depends on what one conceives of as the next level. If the next level is an integrative medicine, then we need those who are looking backwards to retrieve, retain and fully understand the past, as well as those who are looking forward to how this will all play out in the modern world. I am in the latter camp mostly, but I rely on people like you to insure I am not making things up. You may read chinese, but I am well grounded in western medicine and biology and spend most of my time reading research abstracts that others find boring or incomprehensible. Alon has demonstrated his knowledge of orthopedics, anatomy and biomechanics goes far beyond TCM. Steve Morrissey is an expert on production, laboratory anaysis, etc. Sometimes the importance of this diversity gets lost in the fray. despite the idealistic view of some that we all learn chinese (or orthopedics or western science) on top of whatever else we already do, the consensus on this list, in the field, amongst most of my peers, is that many skills are desirable and we can't all have them all. I started this list partly so we could access other's knowledge in areas we are lacking. I encourage people to use the list for this purpose. And I discourage others from bashing those who ask for help because you think they should have known the answer if they just _________ (fill in the blank --- read chinese, ordered lab tests, did a physical exam, studied the SHL more closely). By showing how a different approach leads to a different answer can be far more effective than just chastizing someone for not having the necessary knowledge. I see this everyday in clinic. It is the same online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 Sometimes the importance of this diversity gets lost in the fray. despite the idealistic view of some that we all learn chinese (or orthopedics or western science) on top of whatever else we already do, the consensus on this list, in the field, amongst most of my peers, is that many skills are desirable and we can't all have them all. I started this list partly so we could access other's knowledge in areas we are lacking. I encourage people to use the list for this purpose. And I discourage others from bashing those who ask for help because you think they should have known the answer if they just _________ (fill in the blank --- read chinese, ordered lab tests, did a physical exam, studied the SHL more closely). By showing how a different approach leads to a different answer can be far more effective than just chastizing someone for not having the necessary knowledge. I see this everyday in clinic. It is the same online. >>>Amen Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 > however, the argument can equally be made that an adavanced > understanding of western science, osteopathy, naturopathy, etc. can also > advance one to the " next " level. It all depends on what one conceives of as > the next level. If the next level is an integrative medicine, then we need those > who are looking backwards to retrieve, retain and fully understand the past, > as well as those who are looking forward to how this will all play out in the > modern world. I agree with you completely. What I meant by stressing the importance of reading Chinese was purely related to learning Chinese Medicine, and attaining the highest levels of that system of medicine, nothing else. I am sure that there are many people out there who don't read Chinese that are better practitioners than I am, but if those people could read Chinese they'd be able to go even further. I also feel that each practitioner needs to figure out what's important to them and prioritize their studies. Studying Chinese is extremely time consuming and could conceivably get in the way of other studies. For me, I am mainly interested in Chinese Internal Medicine, so I felt learning Chinese was neccesary for me. Of course, I have the luxury of the time and means to do that. I also spend a fair amount of time studying western medicine and do so mostly in English for obvious reasons (ease, speed, fewer headaches :-) ). >I am in the latter camp mostly, but I rely on people like you to > insure I am not making things up. You may read chinese, but I am well > grounded in western medicine and biology and spend most of my time > reading research abstracts that others find boring or incomprehensible. Alon > has demonstrated his knowledge of orthopedics, anatomy and biomechanics > goes far beyond TCM. Steve Morrissey is an expert on production, laboratory > anaysis, etc. Again, I in no way mean to say that these are not valuable or worthwhile, and there's obviously no need to learn Chinese to study those subjects. My point, again, is just related to the study of CM. > > Sometimes the importance of this diversity gets lost in the fray. despite the > idealistic view of some that we all learn chinese (or orthopedics or western > science) on top of whatever else we already do, the consensus on this list, in > the field, amongst most of my peers, is that many skills are desirable and we > can't all have them all. I don't necessarily think everyone *should* spend their time studying Chinese. Realistically speaking, I don't think it's worth doing unless you're going to be able to put in a lot of time with it. One can't get to a satisfactory level very easily, so you either go for it or forget about it. I've put in a lot of hours to get where I'm at with Chinese and that's because of my focus on Chinese Internal Medicine. That means I've sacrificed time that I could have spent studying other things. It has been a trade off. I guess it just depends what you want to do. It sounds like many on this list (I hesitate to speak for anybody, but judging from my observations of this list) do well without reading Chinese. I am without doubt that Alon is far superior than me in orthopedics, anatomy and biomechanics, and other on the list have their strengths and weaknesses. I agree %100 as you say, many skills are desirable and we can't have them all. >I started this list partly so we could access other's > knowledge in areas we are lacking. I encourage people to use the list for this > purpose. And I discourage others from bashing those who ask for help > because you think they should have known the answer if they just > _________ (fill in the blank --- read chinese, ordered lab tests, did a physical > exam, studied the SHL more closely). By showing how a different approach > leads to a different answer can be far more effective than just chastizing > someone for not having the necessary knowledge. I see this everyday in > clinic. It is the same online. I hope that I didn't come accross as " bashing " people for not knowing Chinese. If it sounded that way, I apologize. I am with you all the way in the sharing of knowledge. I hope that when I have questions I can come here and get friendly advice, not a beating. I also hope that I may be of help to people if and when Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2002 Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 I am sure that there are many people out there who don't read Chinese that are better practitioners than I am, but if those people could read Chinese they'd be able to go even further. >>>Except the point is that there is only 24 hours in a day. If one is reading and studying orthopedics and osteopathy like i do, then time spent on Chinese would retract from these activities. Therefore as I said priorities have to made all the time. If it takes me a whole week to read a section in chinese with a dictionary and in this week I can read five different translations of similar material for me it is better time spent reading translations. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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