Guest guest Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 Clinically I have used 2grams per pack (2 days) = 1 gram da huang per day, and not seen a constipating effect. ALso if low doses of da huang had this constipating effect wouldn't we see this with almost every patent formula or tincture - which has ultra low doses of everything? Also in the rhubarb book, what are the preperation instructions that are attributed with this constipating effect? -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2002 Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 , " < @h...> " <@h...> wrote: ALso if low doses of da huang had this constipating effect wouldn't we see this with almost every patent formula or tincture I was thinking the same thing, except with tinctures, the tannins are not extracted (being alcohol insoluble) and the anthraquinones are weakened. but pills should be universally constipating due to their low dose and they are not. Perhaps it is because tannins require a watery medium to do their thing and the anthraquinones in pills have not been touched by heat, thus maintaining full potency.. According to simon mills, tannins act only locally (and any remote effects from astringents, such as stopping bleeding should be suspect). So neither tinctures nor pills would deliver much active tannins. the only way to deliver large amounts of active tannins would be a water extract. If this was long cooked, it would certainly have high astringency and low purgation (rhubarb was actually prized for its post purgation astringency that in moderate doses callowed it to treat constipation without damaging intestinal tone; in fact, Mill says evidence is that fan xie ye, with similar actives, actually reeducated the colon in moderate doses and proper use cured, not just palliated, chronic constipation). It would seem to me that one would get even stronger astringency by long cook, high dose, which would yield even more tannins, but maintain low anthraquinones. I also have never seen even low doses of da huang be constipating, but how low? I think Will said .6 g/day, which is lower than I have ever prescribed. the fact that the eclectics used low dose rhubarb for astringing diarrhea is all the evidence I need that it has this function (and Felter's mentions powdered rhubarb, not just the tinctures typically used by the eclectics). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 Todd: You wrote " the fact that the eclectics used low dose rhubarb for astringing diarrhea is all the evidence I need that it has this function (and Felter's mentions powdered rhubarb, not just the tinctures typically used by the eclectics). " Where is the evidence for this? I've found no research corroborating this. The fact that this one book mentions this function is certainly not enough to convince me. My mind is open but I have yet to see any clinical evidence of this. Warren In , " <@i...> " <@i...> wrote: > , " < > @h...> " <@h...> wrote: > ALso if low doses of da huang had this constipating effect wouldn't we see > this with almost every patent formula or tincture > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 , " wsheir <wsheir@a...> " < wsheir@a...> wrote: The fact that this one book mentions this function is > certainly not enough to convince me. I have not used the low doses suggested by either Will or the eclectics for this purpose. However it makes sense biochemically and it would not be the first time the chinese missed or ignored a property of an herb. For instance, the use of mo yao is quite limited in TCM compared to arabic medicine. Or qian cao gen is an important longevity tonic in ayurveda. Tannins have quick local effects at lower doses than anthraquinones. Merely contacting the tissues of the large intestine will cause immediate astringency. Da huang, according to all sources, exerts its laxative effects over 4-8 hours. As for felter's materia medica, this was written after the culmination of a century of eclectic practice in 1919. It was a medical text of its era and was considered to include information that was standard consensus in the field. It is quite conservative, often dismissing the value of manyherbs that are lauded in popular herbals. the german phytochemistry industry, which pioneered standardized extracts and controlled research of herbology is rooted in eclecticism. the extraction techniques pioneered by John Uri Lloyd were used as the basis for the german pharmaceutical industry. The information recorded by Felter about the use of herbs has largely turned out to be correct. The eclectics were using saw palmetto, echinacea and kava-kava 150 years ago. they were the supreme empiricists. Thus, they recorded what worked and discarded what didn't. they had a very lively journal tradition, some of which can be found on Michael Moore's website. they also did clinical studies on their remedies. So this " one book " represents the sum total of a tradition that went to too early an grave, sent there by the very industry it spawned. It summarizes the contents of King's dispensatory (basically the zhong yao da ci dian of eclecticism) and must be considered a precursor of the german commission E monographs, which it inspired. Potter's encyclopedia, which has official british herbology information lists rhubarb as having both astringent and cathartic properties that are dose dependent. does anyone have an herbal PDR. that has german commission E info. what does it say there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 , " <@i...> " < @i...> wrote: > > Potter's encyclopedia, which has official british herbology information lists > rhubarb as having both astringent and cathartic properties that are dose > dependent. says the same thing in the Herb Book written by John Lust, son of Benedict Lust, one of the founders of modern naturopathy: take 1 tsp (about 3-4 grams in water for constipation); take 1/4 teaspoonfor diarrhea This is three pretty respectable western materia medicas from three different traditions and they all say the same thing. Rhubarb has been used in europe since at least 200 AD, so they are no stranger to this herb and its many uses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 Warren brings up a good point... You and others are always touting the Chinese classics because they offer no modern research - They are just books. fair enough... But because you seem to have some affinity with the eclectics, you are doing quite the same thing with their books. You mention they are empiricists, well the CHinese are also, and from my viewpoint the CHinese have much much more empirical observations than western herbalism. IMO, I find western herbalism, as great as it is, still a infant compared with chinese herbalism theory and usages. You also say it makes sense " biomedically " (again your affinity) is this any different than someone else saying " well it makes since in chinese theory. " - ? - Why is the biomedical model higher than the CHinese medical model? MAybe I am misunderstanding you, please clarify... But I am not saying the Chinese did or didn't miss anything I just feel your argument is somehow discounting Chinese thinking... You talk tannins like it means something more than qi/ xue/yin/yang. Also you say the book is a cumulative 100 year consensus? IS not the modern Chinese materia medica the same thing but 1000+ years? I do think the eclectics have a lot to offer and I personally have enjoyed the Lloyd library many times, but why is one right and the other not? You say 'they kept what works, but discarded what didn't' again, how is this different that anyone else? Isn't that what the Chinese DO? They no longer rub dog feces over the patient under a full moon to cure night blindness??? You also made the statement " the large intestine will cause immediate astringency. Da huang, according to all sources, exerts its laxative effects over 4-8 hours. " Can you explain this. -JAson , " <@i...> " <@i...> wrote: > , " wsheir <wsheir@a...> " < > wsheir@a...> wrote: > > The fact that this one book mentions this function is > > certainly not enough to convince me. > > I have not used the low doses suggested by either Will or the eclectics for this > purpose. However it makes sense biochemically and it would not be the first > time the chinese missed or ignored a property of an herb. For instance, the > use of mo yao is quite limited in TCM compared to arabic medicine. Or qian > cao gen is an important longevity tonic in ayurveda. Tannins have quick local > effects at lower doses than anthraquinones. Merely contacting the tissues of > the large intestine will cause immediate astringency. Da huang, according to > all sources, exerts its laxative effects over 4-8 hours. > > As for felter's materia medica, this was written after the culmination of a > century of eclectic practice in 1919. It was a medical text of its era and was > considered to include information that was standard consensus in the field. It > is quite conservative, often dismissing the value of manyherbs that are lauded > in popular herbals. the german phytochemistry industry, which pioneered > standardized extracts and controlled research of herbology is rooted in > eclecticism. the extraction techniques pioneered by John Uri Lloyd were > used as the basis for the german pharmaceutical industry. The information > recorded by Felter about the use of herbs has largely turned out to be correct. > The eclectics were using saw palmetto, echinacea and kava-kava 150 years > ago. they were the supreme empiricists. Thus, they recorded what worked > and discarded what didn't. they had a very lively journal tradition, some of > which can be found on Michael Moore's website. they also did clinical studies > on their remedies. So this " one book " represents the sum total of a tradition > that went to too early an grave, sent there by the very industry it spawned. It > summarizes the contents of King's dispensatory (basically the zhong yao da ci > dian of eclecticism) and must be considered a precursor of the german > commission E monographs, which it inspired. > > Potter's encyclopedia, which has official british herbology information lists > rhubarb as having both astringent and cathartic properties that are dose > dependent. does anyone have an herbal PDR. that has german commission > E info. what does it say there? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 Can anyone elaborate on the various preparation methods for Da Huang? Specifically, can anyone report the effects of using it charred to stop bleeding? Is that also at a smaller dose? Also, I think someone made reference to a monograph on Da Huang. What is the title? Finally, I've been wondering about if/how the changes in an herb's functions as the result of pao zhi translate to granules or tablets. Thanks. Brandt Stickley Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 The Expanded Commission E Monographs doesn't contain rhubarb, surprisingly. On Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 10:04 AM, < wrote: > Potter's encyclopedia, which has official british herbology > information lists > rhubarb as having both astringent and cathartic properties that are > dose > dependent. does anyone have an herbal PDR. that has german commission > E info. what does it say there? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 , brandt stickley < kbstickley> wrote: pao zhi > translate to granules or tablets. > pao zhi is considered equally important for powders and pills. traditional pills are typically listed with prepared ingredients as necessary. if pao zhi is valid (and I think it is), it is a matter that is left unaddressed. Many local chinese and vietnamese herbalists do pao zhi in their shops and they consider it very crucial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 Another herb that is related to this thread on paradoxical herb functions is Sheng Ma. I'm thinking in particular of it's use the the formual Ji Chuan Jian. The formula is for constipation. Sheng's ma's ascending nature is said to raise the clear yang to allow the turbid to descend. Any comments? Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 Brandt, I can't speak for all companies, but I can tell you that, at Blue Poppy Herbs, when we manufacture concentrated powdered extract formulas, we specify to our suppliers the exact methods of pao zhi for each ingredient where we believe pao-zhi-ing plays and important part. Bob , brandt stickley <kbstickley> wrote: > Can anyone elaborate on the various preparation > methods for Da Huang? Specifically, can anyone report > the effects of using it charred to stop bleeding? Is > that also at a smaller dose? > Also, I think someone made reference to a monograph on > Da Huang. What is the title? > Finally, I've been wondering about if/how the changes > in an herb's functions as the result of pao zhi > translate to granules or tablets. > > Thanks. > Brandt Stickley > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 Cara, In addition, at low doses, Sheng Ma lowers BP and ay higher doses it raises BP. Bob , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > > Another herb that is related to this thread on paradoxical herb functions > is Sheng Ma. I'm thinking in particular of it's use the the formual Ji Chuan > Jian. The formula is for constipation. Sheng's ma's ascending nature is said > to raise the clear yang to allow the turbid to descend. > Any comments? > > Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 Bob, what is considered low and what is considered high? and do you understand the mechanism involveed? -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company " Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 " <pemachophel2001 Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:41:34 -0000 Re: chai hu --> da huang Cara, In addition, at low doses, Sheng Ma lowers BP and ay higher doses it raises BP. Bob , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > > Another herb that is related to this thread on paradoxical herb functions > is Sheng Ma. I'm thinking in particular of it's use the the formual Ji Chuan > Jian. The formula is for constipation. Sheng's ma's ascending nature is said > to raise the clear yang to allow the turbid to descend. > Any comments? > > Cara Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Cara, 1-3g low; 9+ high. As for the mechanisms, Blue Poppy Herbs just published a newsletter on upbearing yang in order to lower BP. According to this contemporary extension of yin fire theory, it is depressive heat due to a liver-spleen disharmony which leads to ascendant liver yang hyperactivity. So, by upbearing yang and thereby resolving depression, one can undercut the root mechanism of ascendant liver yang hyperactivity, ascending liver fire, and internal stirring of liver wind. However, it would seem that, past a certain point, this approach can cause ascendant liver yang hyperactivity, probably due to damage and consumption of yin in turn due to overuse of an acrid, windy-natured medicinal. In that case, yin vacuity fails to control yang sufficiently. Blue Poppy Herbs new Rx, HyperQuell, is based, at least in part on this theory and includes a low dose of Sheng Ma for just this purpose. Bob , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > Bob, > what is considered low and what is considered high? and do you understand > the mechanism involveed? > -- > Cara O. Frank, R.Ac > herbbabe@e... > China Herb Company > > > " Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001> > > Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:41:34 -0000 > > Re: chai hu --> da huang > > > Cara, > > In addition, at low doses, Sheng Ma lowers BP and ay higher doses it > raises BP. > > Bob > > , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> > wrote: > > > > Another herb that is related to this thread on paradoxical herb > functions > > is Sheng Ma. I'm thinking in particular of it's use the the formual > Ji Chuan > > Jian. The formula is for constipation. Sheng's ma's ascending nature > is said > > to raise the clear yang to allow the turbid to descend. > > Any comments? > > > > Cara > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 thanks. Now does anyone understand it's pharmacological action? Cara 1-3g low; 9+ high. As for the mechanisms, Blue Poppy Herbs just published a newsletter on upbearing yang in order to lower BP. According to this contemporary extension of yin fire theory, it is depressive heat due to a liver-spleen disharmony which leads to ascendant liver yang hyperactivity. So, by upbearing yang and thereby resolving depression, one can undercut the root mechanism of ascendant liver yang hyperactivity, ascending liver fire, and internal stirring of liver wind. However, it would seem that, past a certain point, this approach can cause ascendant liver yang hyperactivity, probably due to damage and consumption of yin in turn due to overuse of an acrid, windy-natured medicinal. In that case, yin vacuity fails to control yang sufficiently. Blue Poppy Herbs new Rx, HyperQuell, is based, at least in part on this theory and includes a low dose of Sheng Ma for just this purpose. Bob , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > Bob, > what is considered low and what is considered high? and do you understand > the mechanism involveed? > -- > Cara O. Frank, R.Ac > herbbabe@e... > China Herb Company > > > " Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001> > > Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:41:34 -0000 > > Re: chai hu --> da huang > > > Cara, > > In addition, at low doses, Sheng Ma lowers BP and ay higher doses it > raises BP. > > Bob > > , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> > wrote: > > > > Another herb that is related to this thread on paradoxical herb > functions > > is Sheng Ma. I'm thinking in particular of it's use the the formual > Ji Chuan > > Jian. The formula is for constipation. Sheng's ma's ascending nature > is said > > to raise the clear yang to allow the turbid to descend. > > Any comments? > > > > Cara > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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