Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Jason since the eclectics had intern clinics in their colleges, there would have been a lot of scrutiny of methods between students and faculty. It wasn't just solo private practice where you can make up any lie you want to aggrandize yourself. rhubarb was apparently considered an important astringent, not a minor one. so one would suspect it was used frequently (I have queries out about this). some of these docs worked at teaching colleges for over 30 or 40 years. they were not writing popular herbals for profit. do you really think that in 40 years of practice and teaching, no one would have noticed that every time rhubarb was prescribed for diarrhea, it got worse or the treatment failed. to suggest that dances dangerously close to a position I abhor, which is the that the chinese were the only keen observers to health and disease in all of history and everyone else was just wrong. In fact, the chinese missed a lot. check out yoga of herbs to see how ayurveda uses many TCM herbs quite differently. Since TCM developed amongst scholars and solo practitioners, not in med schools, there was not the same scrutiny. You may lie to yourself or your colleagues, but you can't deny what is before your very eyes and having dealt with a cat having colitis for 2 weeks, diarrhea is hard to miss. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Since TCM developed amongst scholars and solo practitioners, not in med schools, there was not the same scrutiny.\ >>>Unfortunately still very little scrutiny. Just read any modern J. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 You may lie to yourself or your colleagues, but you can't deny what is before your very eyes and having dealt with a cat having colitis for 2 weeks, diarrhea is hard to miss.>>>But if it has to do with "saving face" and you would be surprised what can happen. Statement like well yes from what I have seen this is not true But "may be"(ha ha) it is his observation (i.e. the senior dr that you want to study with, curry favor with, get a job from etc and for which you write the paper) Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 , " Alon Marcus " < alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > You may lie to yourself or your colleagues, but you can't deny what is before your very eyes and having dealt with a cat having colitis for 2 weeks, diarrhea is hard to miss. > >>>But if it has to do with " saving face " and you would be surprised what can happen. Statement like well yes from what I have seen this is not true But " may be " (ha ha) it is his observation (i.e. the senior dr that you want to study with, curry favor with, get a job from etc and for which you write the paper) > Alon then any anecdote is suspect. why should I trust you or anyone else on this list. You can't dismiss the clinical experience of an entire 200 year tradition of being about saving face. this could be true, but since the chinese are the kings of face savers, one would suspect this bias is magnified manyfold in TCM history and even modern practice. I have a query out to my ND friend to practices this style. he is also a longtime product developer and lab analyst. he is well known in his field for his attention to scientific rigor. All his products have extensive scientfic support and he is dismissive of anything not proven by some valid test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 , " Alon Marcus " < alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Since TCM developed amongst scholars and solo practitioners, not in med schools, there was not the same scrutiny.\ > >>>Unfortunately still very little scrutiny. Just read any modern J. > Alon perhaps not enough,but still way more than the past. having worked in school clinics for most of the past 14 years, I can assure you that we all become aware of suspect ideas and are quite cognizant of things like whether our patients keep getting worse diarrhea every time we try and cure it with a standard remedy. Consider the well known use of tong xie yao fang for diarrhea. What if every time we used this formula, diarrhea got worse. no one would notice? we would all keep lying and injuring patients to save face? I am a cynic and a pessimist, but my god, if you guys are right, there is not a scrupulous person on the planet. I may be naiive, but I still think most doctors are ethical and have their patient's best interests at heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 then any anecdote is suspect. why should I trust you or anyone else on this list. You can't dismiss the clinical experience of an entire 200 year tradition of being about saving face. >>>Correct and that is why i strongly feel we should never loose basic objective logic thinking. Look at a stated outcome, does it sound reasonable? too good to be true? how many have repeated these findings? have you seen others get the same outcome? so on. It is too easy to look at a TCM process, see that is sound "possible"in TCM logic thinking and therefore conclude that it works. loosing sight of objective logics, such as is it likely? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 All his products have extensive scientfic support and he is dismissive of anything not proven by some valid test.>>>>>Experience shows this to be a good basic rule to start at Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 What if every time we used this formula, diarrhea got worse. no one would notice? we would all keep lying and injuring patients to save face? I am a cynic and a pessimist, but my god, if you guys are right, there is not a scrupulous person on the planet. I may be naiive, but I still think most doctors are ethical and have their patient's best interests at heart.>>>>Obviously not. My questions arise about Chinese J articles. Nothing is 100% good or bad. What I question is the process. How open is it? Do we put emphasis on discussion of positive and negative findings equally. Where are discussions on trying to replicate protocols in J. Just the other day I heard of a very known and well educated TCM practitioner (that also read Chinese very well) stating that often he/she feels "betrayed by the medicine," why is stuff like that not in the open? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 What does this practitioner mean by this, and what does what he say mean to you? Betrayal is strong language. On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:36 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > I heard of a very known and well educated TCM practitioner (that also > read Chinese very well) stating that often he/she feels " betrayed by > the medicine, " why is stuff like that not in the open? > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Betrayal is strong language. >>>Its about doing everything right but no results. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Betrayal is strong language. > >>>Its about doing everything right but no results. > Alon I am curious how he 'can do everything right' and get nothing.. when there are plenty of us out here who only do half the things right and get tremendous results.. ? -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 I am curious how he 'can do everything right' and get nothing.. when there are plenty of us out here who only do half the things right and get tremendous results.. >>>Well he/she is on the list I will leave it up to them Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 I am curious how he 'can do everything right' and get nothing.. when there are plenty of us out here who only do half the things right and get tremendous results.. >>>>Also, I want to make it clear, I get good results using TCM and other OM techniques every day. I am not saying that the medicine never works. Only that there is much to much little conversation on when it does not and no public discussion on reports from China Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 > >>>>Also, I want to make it clear, I get good results using TCM and other OM techniques every day. I am not saying that the medicine never works. Only that there is much to much little conversation on when it does not and no public discussion on reports from China Alon, Ok.. I do agree that it should be talked about more.. Its seems like everyone gets 100% results... but I just noticed something interesting-that in Chinese texts it is not uncommon for them to mention how difficult a given condition it is to treat - and 'truthfully' discuss prognosis...but in comparison when one looks at a Western similar book (i.e. Maciocia) it will say something like acupuncture and Chinese herbs have astounding results regardless of a Western diagnosis, etc. etc....so I think it is there more than we think - but less in the west... Here acupuncture is thought to be able to cure everything.. right? - Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 Dear group, does anyone have any experience in treating Arterio venous malformation? I have a 7 year old male patient, who has this- he was asymptomatic for his first 7 years but now suffers severe headaches requiring hospitalization. His western doctors have never seen this in a child and are unable to offer much help. Has anybody seen this or heard of it? Would it be prudent to use the headache chinese disease protocols? thanks in advance David Appleton L.AC. --- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > I am curious how he 'can do everything right' and > get nothing.. when there are plenty of us out here > who only do half the things right and get tremendous > results.. > >>>>Also, I want to make it clear, I get good > results using TCM and other OM techniques every day. > I am not saying that the medicine never works. Only > that there is much to much little conversation on > when it does not and no public discussion on reports > from China > Alon > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 Dear group, does anyone have advice or a protocol for withdrawing patients with genital herpes from acyclovir? Are there any significant side effects? Will there be immediate flare-up of the lesions? thanks in advance David Appleton L.Ac > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 so I think it is there more than we think >>I wish this was translated more Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.