Digest Number 1239

[Guest guest]

the following message is from ,

12/13/02 1:51 PM

 

>> >>>>Also, I want to make it clear, I get good results using TCM and other

OM

>techniques every day. I am not saying that the medicine never works. Only

>that there is much to much little conversation on when it does not and no

>public discussion on reports from China

>

>

>Alon,

>

>Ok.. I do agree that it should be talked about more.. Its seems like

>everyone gets 100% results...

 

Jason and Alon,

 

I'm not sure what your sources are, but I often see in journals the

mention of patients that either got limited or no benefit from a given

treatment, and even mention of patients getting worse.

 

Greg

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure what your sources are, but I often see in journals the mention of patients that either got limited or no benefit from a given treatment, and even mention of patients getting worse.

>>>For example, if you go to Blue Poppy web and check on translated articles the results are often not realistic. Yes there are failures but the total effective rates for many serous disorders are not realistic. This is true for most of the translated article.

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <

alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

Yes there are failures but the total effective rates for many serous disorders

are not realistic. This is true for most of the translated article.

> Alon

 

It is quite clear in these abstracts that the total effective rate includes

those

were cured and those who experienced varying degrees of relief. the cure

rate is usually less than 15-20%. another 50-60% get varying degrees of

relief. I don't think this is really unrealistic. However presenting this as

is the

style in chinese journals as a 65-80% success rate is quite misleading. I

would say at least 65% of my patients get some degree of lasting relief from

their complaints, whatever they may be.

 

[Guest guest]

I would say at least 65% of my patients get some degree of lasting relief from their complaints, whatever they may be.>>>No argument but we need to be much more specific in what the relief is, how measured etc. Unfortunately most of the articles being translated do not ring true on many levels. Definitely the ones I had first hand knowledge of were very misleading and were written in the usual way of fairly vague definition of what cure is, very improved, improved and not improved. And then the total effective rate.

 

Some examples, 120 patients in this study met the WHO criteria of more than 60% sleep loss. After acupuncture treatment Based on these criteria, in the treatment group, 24 cases (40%) were judged cured. Do you get 40% cure rate in chronic insomnia using acupuncture alone?

 

This Chinese medical view of middle-aged and elderly low back pain is evidenced by an article written by Zheng Ai-guo and Yu La-mei titled “The Treatment of 40 Cases of Low Back Muscular Strain with Self-composed Zhuang Bei Tang (Strengthen the Back Decoction)”

Cure was defined as disappearance of any lumbar region soreness, distention, or pain with normal bending and stretching of the low back region. Based on the above criteria, 31 patients (77.5%) were judged cured. Do you get 80% cure of back pain with herbs alone?

 

treated 60 cases of congestive heart failure with a Chinese herbal formula called Xin Li Shu Kang Wan. Clinical cure meant that heart function either returned to normal or was grade I, that the patients’ symptoms basically disappeared, and that all other tests basically returned to normal. Marked effect meant that the patients’ heart function improved two grades, that their symptoms basically disappeared, and that all other tests markedly improved. Based on the above criteria, within the Chinese medical treatment group, four patients (6.6%) were judged cured, 36 (60.0%) experienced a marked effect. Do you see 60% of these type of patient have all the symptoms basically disappear?

 

I could go on and on

Alon