Guest guest Posted December 15, 2002 Report Share Posted December 15, 2002 Hi Jason, & All, > It seems like everyone gets 100% results... Even God does not get 100% results ... at least God has left (or allows) a huge mess on this planet - war, poverty, disease and misery, etc. IMO, no human being can get 100% results; even the BEST of us suffers from some medical ailments, and we ALL will die sometime. > ... but I just noticed something interesting - that in Chinese > texts it is not uncommon for them to mention how difficult a given > condition it is to treat - and 'truthfully' discuss prognosis... Yes, but some Chinese sources, especially articles written in the past 30 years, claim unbelievably high success rates in difficult conditions. > ... but in comparison when one looks at a Western similar book (i.e. Maciocia) it will say something like acupuncture and Chinese herbs have astounding results regardless of a Western diagnosis, etc. etc....so I think it is there more than we think - but less in the west... Here acupuncture is thought to be able to cure everything.. right? Jason If AP could cure everything, why should we have to study western methods, and the gamut of complementary methods that we use in our search for an integrated medical system that combines the best of all available methods? Best regards, WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland WWW : Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2002 Report Share Posted December 15, 2002 Phil, Maybe my tone/sarcastic intent of some of my comments did not come through... let me clarify... > > It seems like everyone gets 100% results... > > Even God does not get 100% results ... at least God has left (or > allows) a huge mess on this planet - war, poverty, disease and > misery, etc. > > IMO, no human being can get 100% results; even the BEST of us > suffers from some medical ailments, and we ALL will die sometime. Of course.. my 100% comment was purely sarcastic... > > > ... but I just noticed something interesting - that in Chinese > > texts it is not uncommon for them to mention how difficult a given > > condition it is to treat - and 'truthfully' discuss prognosis... > > Yes, but some Chinese sources, especially articles written in the > past 30 years, claim unbelievably high success rates in difficult > conditions. no argument > > > ... but in comparison when one looks at a Western similar book > (i.e. Maciocia) it will say something like acupuncture and Chinese > herbs have astounding results regardless of a Western diagnosis, > etc. etc....so I think it is there more than we think - but less in the > west... Here acupuncture is thought to be able to cure everything.. > right? Jason > > If AP could cure everything, why should we have to study western > methods, and the gamut of complementary methods that we use in > our search for an integrated medical system that combines the best > of all available methods? > Of course... My point was how unrealistic even some of the western TCM texts are where there Chinese counterpart is more realistic. I was merely showing the other side of the coin. This is not denying that Chinese do not also exaggerate. I just think there is more out there on prognosis (the way the Chinese see it) than sometimes we think, but again much still needs to be translated. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 Yes, but some Chinese sources, especially articles written in the past 30 years, claim unbelievably high success rates in difficult conditions. >>>>Welcome i needed another voice on this issue. Almost all the articles that are translated and the Chinese abstracts that appear in English are unbelievably high in reported success. I think for us as a profession this is a very important issue to confront. We need to grow up. Openly discussing limitations or criticizing what looks like unrealistic reports only makes us stronger not weaker. There should be as much attention paid to positive reports as to negative ones. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 I just think there is more out there on prognosis (the way the Chinese see it) >>>Jason since you read Chinese do you think or know there is? I have seen what seems to be very good translations of articles (bob flaws) for example and still I do not see realistic reporting. Also Journals from china that have English abstracts still by far have unrealistic reporting far exceeding realistic ones. Many English writers have strong monetary interests in what they write so that saying this and that is wonderful and works like magic is suspects on many levels, from ignorance to self serving. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > >>>>Welcome i needed another voice on this issue. Almost all the articles that are translated and the Chinese abstracts that appear in English are unbelievably high in reported success. I think for us as a profession this is a very important issue to confront. We need to grow up. Openly discussing limitations or criticizing what looks like unrealistic reports only makes us stronger not weaker. There should be as much attention paid to positive reports as to negative ones. Alon: Miki Shima mentioned this problem several years ago at the PCOM Conference. He had talked to a Chinese journal editor about their unusual success rate and the editor admited that they were pressured into making their studies look more successful. Probably similar to the pressure that Western studies are put to by pharmeceutical companies. This is why we will be forced to verify everything ourselves (the findings in the classics as well as modern studies) to maintain creditability. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 Miki Shima mentioned this problem several years ago at the PCOM Conference. He had talked to a Chinese journal editor about their unusual success rate and the editor admited that they were pressured into making their studies look more successful. Probably similar to the pressure that Western >>>NEJM 347(17)1335-41, 1362-3, 2002 Serious conflicts of interest between scientists and drug companies were fount in a survey of 108 medical schools. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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