Guest guest Posted December 27, 2002 Report Share Posted December 27, 2002 , " Neil Pregozen " < neil.pregozen@m...> wrote: > In your discussion of naturopathy, you mentioned an example of a client with rheumatoid arthritis who has been in remission for 4 years which you consider to be typical of your RA patients. I have not treated anyone with RA and am curious how long it usually takes before you notice obvious results and if you could decribe the process more fully. Using an eclectic therapy centered on chinese herbs, I expect results within 2 weeks visa ve reduction of pain meds and improved daily activity assessment. this is a good example of where TCM fails. most RA patients test positive for various parasites, food allergies. this is based upon clinical research and my own observations. while many chinese journals report formulas that cure RA, I have not seen that to be the case. In fact, I would love to hear about a case of RA treated by TCM alone that was cured. I have asked for reports on such cases in this forum for over three years and no one has presented one yet. My hunch would be that the iatrogenic effects of WM are not as prevalent in china, so the herbs are adequate. It is also possible that results are skewed, diagnosis was wrong, spontaneous remission and lack of true long term followup to insure success. chinese research is not peer reviewed in any trustworthy manner and alon has pointed out that when he did followup on dozens of supposedly cured patients during his sojourn in China, he found the results to be disappointing, to say the least. the research is helpful in that it shows what people are doing in china and what works short term or during therapy. I have not seen any translated materials that did adequate followup. todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2002 Report Share Posted December 27, 2002 This for me is the wild card in the practice of Chinese medicine in the West; the fact that most of our patients with such conditions as RA are on powerful medications. It changes the focus of how we treat and the patterns that we see. I, for one, think that treating the same symptoms with both herbs and drugs at the same time is not always a good idea. On Friday, December 27, 2002, at 08:53 AM, < wrote: > My hunch would be that the iatrogenic effects of WM > are not as prevalent in china, so the herbs are adequate. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2002 Report Share Posted December 27, 2002 What does the group think of these published Chinese treatment outcomes for RA? Cure was defined as complete disappearance of all symptoms, normalization of all tests and examinations, and no recurrence within one year. Such tests consisted of hand grasp strength, blood sedimentation rate, anti-O, rheumatoid factor, C-reactive protein, complete blood analysis, and urinanalysis. Marked effect was defined as basic disappearance of symptoms, blood sedimentation rate tending to be high, some joint swelling, a slight degree of osteoporosis, rheumatoid factor and C-reactive protein turning negative, and no obvious recurrence within six months. Some effect was defined as partial improvement in general and disease symptoms and variable degrees of improvement in physical and laboratory examinations. No effect meant that there was no improvement either in general or disease symptoms nor in physical or laboratory examinations. Based on the above criteria, within the treatment group, 10 patients (13.3%) were judged cured, 33 (44%) got a marked effect, 27 (36%) got some effect, and five (6.7%) got no effect, for a total effectiveness rate of 93.3%. In the comparison group, two cases (6.7%) were cured, seven cases (23.3%) got a marked effect, 13 (43.3%) got some effect, and eight (26.75) got no effect, for a total effectiveness rate of 73.3%.In terms of total effectiveness rates, the P value was 0.01. They are from an RCT we will be publishing in full in the April 2003 issue of the Blue Poppy On-line CM Journal. Bob , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > This for me is the wild card in the practice of Chinese medicine in the > West; the fact that most of our patients with such conditions as RA are > on powerful medications. It changes the focus of how we treat and the > patterns that we see. I, for one, think that treating the same > symptoms with both herbs and drugs at the same time is not always a > good idea. > > > On Friday, December 27, 2002, at 08:53 AM, > <@i...> wrote: > > > My hunch would be that the iatrogenic effects of WM > > are not as prevalent in china, so the herbs are adequate. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2002 Report Share Posted December 27, 2002 I, for one, think that treating the same symptoms with both herbs and drugs at the same time is not always a good idea. When not, and under what circumstances would you treat the same symptoms with both herbs and drugs at the same time? I have positive experience using wind heat dispelling medicinals for allergic asthma treated with steroids or combined with antibiotics for infections. There are studies showing positive affects for the treatment of lupus with herbs and steroids combined. Will Morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2002 Report Share Posted December 27, 2002 West; the fact that most of our patients with such conditions as RA are on powerful medications. >>>Excuse me but they use powerful drugs with MUCH MUCH more misuse in China. Just a red haring here. Does it work or not Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2002 Report Share Posted December 27, 2002 This doesn't change the fact that one has to adjust one's treatment to treat patients on strong medications, misuse or not. That was the point of my post. This is not a 'red herring'. This is an important consideration in designing treatment plans. These variables are much less common in Western medicine. Without accounting for variables, we are not going to be very accurate in our studies. They are not going away. On Friday, December 27, 2002, at 01:01 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > West; the fact that most of our patients with such conditions as RA are > on powerful medications. > >>>Excuse me but they use powerful drugs with MUCH MUCH more misuse in > China. Just a red haring here. Does it work or not > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2002 Report Share Posted December 27, 2002 This doesn't change the fact that one has to adjust one's treatment to treat patients on strong medications, misuse or not. That was the point of my post. This is not a 'red herring'. This is an important consideration in designing treatment plans. >>>Yes but it is not different in "western patients." The question of drug effects on diagnosis is very important and not very well understood problem, ie pulse, tongue S/S. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 Antibiotics do not release the exterior, they would be closest in my estimation to clear heat and toxin medicinals such as huang lian or lian qiao, so combining with exterior releasing medicinals shouldn't be a problem, in fact, it may be a good combination. (I should also point out that most exterior conditions should be able to be treated with herbs only, we are all aware of the abuse of antibiotics). An example of duplicating treatment for the same symptoms would be combining herbal medicinals to disinhibit urination along with diuretics, which could aggravate dryness and/or yin vacuity. Another example would be using blood moving medicinals such as dan shen, tao ren or hong hua with coumadin (wayfarin). The duplication has been shown in studies to be risky. Using herbal medicines and steroids in treating lupus patients is not duplication therapy, the herbs are doing different things from the steroids (one cannot duplicate steroid therapy exactly with herbs). Again, not a problem, and not what I am pointing out. If one does a careful pattern differentiation, these problems shouldn't arise. However, there is a surprising tendency to attempt to duplicate drug therapies with herbs. Not such a great idea. On Friday, December 27, 2002, at 05:18 PM, WMorris116 wrote: > When not, and under what circumstances would you treat the same > symptoms with both herbs and drugs at the same time? I have positive > experience using wind heat dispelling medicinals for allergic asthma > treated with steroids or combined with antibiotics for infections. > There are studies showing positive affects for the treatment of lupus > with herbs and steroids combined. > > Will Morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 (I should also point out that most exterior conditions should be able to be treated with herbs only, we are all aware of the abuse of antibiotics). >>If still in the exterior there is no need for antibiotics at all, unless the patient is in danger of developing other problems alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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