Guest guest Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Wow, what fabulous topics. And in a not-so-twisted way, very related to one another. Rey- Thank you so much for passing on the books. I can't wait to get them, but unfortunately will have to wait till back in Beijing (Feb.). In the meantime, I would love it if you could send me the characters -- for both titles, authors, and especially the verse you translated. I don't know what Chinese input system you use, but attachments usually work best for me (I use the XP Global IME, which is incompatible with Chinese Windows in email). Anyway, my more private address is spritzker, and I look forward to hearing from you! And Ken, wow, speaking of synchronicity (and I'm thrilled to hear you recommending Allen C.) -- I was just thinking about time and temporality this morning. I was studying needling techniques in the very banal way required for the state board exam (ick), and was struck by the repeated use of linear time structure in the modern description of acupuncture, i.e., "rapid qi, rapid effect; slow qi, slow effect" which is supposedly quoted from Ode of the Golden Needle. Assuming that the translation is correct, ( with kuai, fast, and man, slow being the insinuated yet unlikely original words), it's remarkable how easily this can be seen as describing "time" in the modern linear sense. But what was really meant? For a great analysis of time, space, and metaphors in Chinese, I refer everyone to Ning Yu's Contemporary Theory of Metaphor: A Perspective from Chinese. Three definitions of time are examined here (p. 85): Time as linear: "time is one-dimensional, moving from the past through the present to the future, or vice versa, depending on different theories." Time as cyclic: "time is two-dimensional, forming a 'closed loop' along which one can go 'forward to the past'" Time as spiral: "time has to occupy a three-dimensional space while moving around and upward (or forward)." Yu points out that all of these models are dependent upon time's relationship to space, and that I think is a fascinating question to examine in terms of ancient Chinese medicine. The body in space, the body in time, etc. While Yu looks at modern Chinese linguistic expression and finds many similarities to the linear TIME PASSING IS MOTION metaphor in English, classical Chinese is not explored. From what I know of it (which is really not much), classical Chinese has a completely different orientation in time and space than does modern Chinese or English. I look forward to reading what Needham has to say on the topic, but from my experience it feels like the traditional Chinese interpretation of time was a combination of time as spiral, time as cyclic, and time as linear, that none was exclusive and the flexibility of time was probably a lot more profoundly recognized than it is today. I liked the way Z'ev described this in relation to the patient's body and experience of time. It would seem to make sense that the more harmonious we are with nature, the more flexible our definition of time becomes. The other thing that the discussion of time brings up is the way that we as practitioners (whether in China or the West) can re-interpret meaning over time. In anthropology, it is said that "archaeological or ethnographic artifacts are continually being taken out of their contexts and reinterpreted within museums within different social and cultural contexts" (Hodder, 1998, p. 119). Even more so for a living, breathing practice like Chinese medicine. In fact, I almost feel like because there are so many different interpretations of the practice, so many "ways of knowing," it's almost ridiculous to try and define matter-of-factly the relationship of meaning to time in a medicine that is still continually unfolding. Still, having an idea or two about what the ancients thought of time would probably only enhance our current interpretation, integrating that perspective into our own practice and experience of time. I would love to claim that I had mastered this, but unfortunately I am presently caught in the time-warp of memorization and regurgitation. Regards, SonyaGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Sonya, Z'ev, Marco and others... The interpretation of time (much like interpretations of anything) reflects as much or more on the individual(s) doing the intrepretation than on time itself. I think we can develop more useful insights by phrasing the question as, Who were these traditional Chinese who have forumlated traditional Chinese medicine over the millennia? And, What values were they using in order to establish and propagate their interpretations of time? Clearly they were agricultural folks, at least by the time that the cultural identity we now call Chinese began to emerge and coalesce. The problem with answering the question as I've stated it above is that these people are all dead and gone. But they have left traces, and in fact they were somewhat obsessed with the leaving of traces. They also left a living tradition that is a rich, complicated aggregate of many schools of thought and practice. This is part of the rationale for the importance of the study of language, literature, and history in the understanding of the most basic terms and concepts of Chinese medicine, by the by. We can now conveniently refer to Descartes error, i.e., that the body and the mind are two distinctly different things rather than two names for varying interactively related aspects of one whole thing. And we can raise the question of how people who were not laboring under this misconception may have experienced and felt the movements in the natural world that appear to the dichotomized mind as a never ending series of 90 and 180 degree choices and obligations. We can even consider the dynamics of the neural architecture and the way that different mental habits and patterns replicate themselves in the brain's matter and therefore the way this neurological- mental matter develops and evolves without the sense of itself as having been split in two. By such means, I suggest that we can progress towards an experiential understanding of traditional Chinese medicine that can be enormously useful in the clinic, as Z'ev points out. By experiential understanding I mean comprehending and feeling the feeling of what was happening when someone was thinking or saying or using certain concepts, say yin1 and yang2 or qi4. There's just one way to get it. To once again cite Musashi, The way is in training. But to neglect or avoid the study of the traces that have been left behind denies access to part of the morphic, if we can use this term to describe fields that have generated in China for such a long... What draws so many people to Chinese medicine, as Z'ev points out clearly, is that it represents some movement or change in their understanding and appreciation of time. It is old. It is built upon the speculations and considerations of people who were very concerned about longevity and survival, and we only know of it today because to a very great extent these concerns have been translated into workable approaches to the challenges that face all human beings who seek to survive. These very basic considerations ought not be minimized in terms of their importance in the clinic, especially if one looks at the clinic through the eyes of the patient rather than the eyes of the doctor. It's time for a patient centered medicine that gives people the capacity to treat patients before they get ill. The mass of humanity has grown to a size at which the sustainability of a human-conduive biosphere is being challenged by the number of humans vying for survival on earth. Who is going to take care of all these people? I agree with you, Sonya, when you point out that time, suicide and creativity are inter-related. It might be fruitful to envision the current suicide epidemic in the Chinese countryside as the collision of two enormous waves of time. The forces generated in this collision are beyond the capacity of a growing number of people to sustain...to continue to create their own lives. Of course it might all be reduced in some people's minds to a matter of economics. But map the large scale movements of human beings that are being generated by China's headlong rush into the future after centuries of reliance upon its traditional senses and values of time, culture, and human action in general. Some fairly daunting trends emerge, and when these are extrapolated into the future...even the very near future, the importance of effective medicine is greatly increased. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Marco, > > What is/was the concept of body in Chinese medicine? We've discussed some of these terms and ideas preivously, and I won't go over the ground already covered. But one point I want to reiterate is that many if not most of the descriptions and definitions of and relating to the body in Chinese medicine involve qi4. As such, they also involve and enfold certain other fundamental terms and concepts such as yin1 and yang2 along with a number of other essentially philosophical and even cosmological notions. One of the factors that complicates the translation of Chinese medical terms into English is the resonance that develops between the medical and non-medical usages of various terms. I think again and again of the oft-debated terms xu1 and shi2. Why can't we just go with flow that says, " well we've called these things deficiency and excess for so long now, so why don't we just continue out of respect for our own traditions? " Or something like that. As I said, this has been discussed often and elsewhere, so I will try not to belabor the point. But the point is that without incorporation of the philosophical, cosmological and epistemological dimensions of various basic terms in Chinese medicine, a good deal of the resonant meaning of these terms is sacrificed. And in the name of what? Clinical efficacy? Not enough time? That just doesn't make sense. Particularly in light of our current discussion about the importance of time sense in a patient- centered perspective on clinical medicine. What is the body in Chinese medicine? Whatever it is for anyone who consturcts a definition in the terms of Chinese medicine, it is an aggregation of various qi4's. It was this recognition that led Yuhuan and me to write a book about qi4. If you read that book you'll see we don't really try to offer our own interpretations of qi4, we try, as much as is possible to give readers access to and some help in understanding what various Chinese voices have had to say about this curious little word for centuries. It was always meant to be a model for the kind of investigations that might pay off for those who want to understand the basic terms and concepts of the subject in light of what the people who created these things meant them to be. I want to make it very clear that I do not hold that the way they were meant to be is the way that we must understand and use them. For part of the traditional model of knowledge in ancient China included this very important dimension in which the individual must create the knowledge for him or herself. And this is part and parcel of the answer to your question: What is the body in terms of Chinese medicine? It is something that the individual creates for himself or herself following the genetive and ancestral plans and patterns. Every day you make your body just a little bit at a time. The inscription cited on the stone tablets that contain the text of the Confucian classics include this important admonition based upon this understanding of the body and of the life that dwells in and around it: make it new every day. The taiji classics contain another provocative line that I believe can be useful in developing answers to this question about the nature of the body from the viewpoint of traditional Chinese medicine: each place in the body has the same xu1 and shi2. One of my students said something that I think is also useful in understanding the traditional Chinese concept/experience of the body. It is the thing that unites heaven and earth. I'm sure there are lots of other things to say about this subject. But one important point is that virtually all traditional Chinese descriptions of the body develop from the use of metaphors. And if a student ignores the linguistic dimensions of these meanings, a great deal is lost...long before you get to translations. Ken > > Not only was the Descartes mind body dichotomy not too formulated, at least not a dominating trend through out China (history) and its medical paradigm(s) up till late Qing? > > but presumably the structure leading to function dichotomy, was also of a lesser preoccupation? (till late Qing?) > > My current " understanding " of the body in " terms " of Chinese medicine is that the body is assembly of constellations-functions subjected to the same " laws " as Earth Heaven - Yin Yang interactions (these " three " components being and making qi) i.e. at times qi can be consider " interactions " ? > > Since things are always changing (as the saying goes). > > Chinese medical history surly " must " be more then a history of ideas, and as such ought to be a more pronounced part in any curriculum of learning Chinese medicine. This I am saying with out knowing how the situation is today but where I was studying forget it, thus, making it more difficult in learning to: > > thinking-knowing Chinese medical practices. > > Presumably the classics would serve the fundamental purpose in learning to thinking Chinese medicine? (when commentaries take the temporal and spatial factors in question) i.e.. contextualise interpretations... > > > Any comment on Chinese medicine and the body most welcome... > > Marco > > - > dragon90405 <yulong@m...> > > Friday, January 03, 2003 8:58 PM > Re: Time, Suicide, and Creativity > > > Sonya, Z'ev, Marco and others... > > The interpretation of time (much like > interpretations of anything) reflects > as much or more on the individual(s) > doing the intrepretation than on time > itself. I think we can develop more > useful insights by phrasing the question > as, Who were these traditional Chinese > who have forumlated traditional Chinese > medicine over the millennia? And, What > values were they using in order to > establish and propagate their interpretations > of time? > > Clearly they were agricultural folks, > at least by the time that the cultural > identity we now call Chinese began to > emerge and coalesce. The problem with > answering the question as I've stated > it above is that these people are all > dead and gone. But they have left traces, > and in fact they were somewhat obsessed > with the leaving of traces. > > They also left a living tradition that > is a rich, complicated aggregate of > many schools of thought and practice. > > This is part of the rationale for the importance > of the study of language, literature, > and history in the understanding of > the most basic terms and concepts of > Chinese medicine, by the by. > > We can now conveniently refer to Descartes > error, i.e., that the body and the mind are > two distinctly different things rather than > two names for varying interactively related > aspects of one whole thing. And we can raise > the question of how people who were not > laboring under this misconception may have > experienced and felt the movements > in the natural world that appear to the > dichotomized mind as a never ending series > of 90 and 180 degree choices and obligations. > > We can even consider the dynamics of > the neural architecture and the way that > different mental habits and patterns > replicate themselves in the brain's > matter and therefore the way this neurological- > mental matter develops and evolves without > the sense of itself as having been > split in two. > > By such means, I suggest that we can > progress towards an experiential understanding > of traditional Chinese medicine that > can be enormously useful in the clinic, > as Z'ev points out. > > By experiential understanding I mean > comprehending and feeling > the feeling of what was happening when > someone was thinking or saying or using > certain concepts, say yin1 and yang2 or > qi4. There's just one way to get it. > > To once again cite Musashi, The way is > in training. > > But to neglect or avoid the study of > the traces that have been left behind > denies access to part of the morphic, > if we can use this term to describe > fields that have generated in China for such a > long... > > What draws so many people to Chinese medicine, > as Z'ev points out clearly, is that it represents > some movement or change in their understanding > and appreciation of time. It is old. It is > built upon the speculations and considerations > of people who were very concerned about longevity > and survival, and we only know of it today because > to a very great extent these concerns have been > translated into workable approaches to the challenges > that face all human beings who seek to survive. > > These very basic considerations ought not > be minimized in terms of their importance > in the clinic, especially if one looks at > the clinic through the eyes of the patient > rather than the eyes of the doctor. > > It's time for a patient centered medicine > that gives people the capacity to treat > patients before they get ill. The mass of > humanity has grown to a size at which > the sustainability of a human-conduive > biosphere is being challenged by the > number of humans vying for survival > on earth. > > Who is going to take care of all these > people? > > I agree with you, Sonya, when you point > out that time, suicide and creativity > are inter-related. It might be fruitful > to envision the current suicide epidemic > in the Chinese countryside as the collision > of two enormous waves of time. > > The forces generated in this collision > are beyond the capacity of a growing > number of people to sustain...to continue > to create their own lives. > > Of course it might all be reduced in > some people's minds to a matter of > economics. But map the large > scale movements of human beings that > are being generated by China's headlong > rush into the future after centuries > of reliance upon its traditional senses > and values of time, culture, and > human action in general. > > Some fairly daunting trends emerge, > and when these are extrapolated into > the future...even the very near future, > the importance of effective medicine > is greatly increased. > > Ken > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 > Marco wrote, > > What is/was the concept of body in Chinese medicine? Marco: One interesting place to start is The Taoist Body by Kristofer Schipper, Karen C. Duval (Translator), University of California Press; ISBN: 0520082249; Book Description from Amazon.com: The ancient system of thought known as Taoism remains today the least well known of the world's great religions and one of the most inaccessible aspects of Chinese culture. This is in large part because Western thought clings to the notion of the separation of matter and spirit, body and soul. Taoism refuses this dualism and considers the body's perfection as essential as the soul's redemption is to Christianity. Kristofer Schipper's elegant and lucid introduction to the traditions of Taoism and the masters who transmit them will reward all those interested in China and in religions. The result of over twenty-five years of research, including eight years of fieldwork in China, Schipper's book retraces, step by step, the way that leads from Chinese shamanism and traditional village life to the physical Tending Life techniques, which in turn lead to the mysticism of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Schipper shows the fundamental unity underlying all aspects of Taoism as Taoism considers itself to be. The social body, the community, the village, and the land corresponds in all aspects to the physical body in Taoism. In both of them the survival of humanity is decided here and now. " My destiny is within me, not in Heaven! " Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003  Dear Jim, Thanks a lot for the suggestion... Yet another book on my "hit list"... If the following book is in the English language (since I do not yet speak Chinese) It has been highly recommended. 身體與自然 (Shenti yu ziran) Body and nature, subtitled, taking the Huangdi neijing to discuss the view of the body in ancient and traditional China, by 蔡璧å, Cai Bi-ming published, NTU Wenshi congkan, 1997 國立å°ç£å¤§å¸æ–‡å²å¢åˆŠ, 1997 Has any one read it? Marco - James Ramholz <jramholz Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:25 PM Re: Time, Suicide, and Creativity > Marco wrote,> > What is/was the concept of body in Chinese medicine?Marco:One interesting place to start is The Taoist Bodyby Kristofer Schipper, Karen C. Duval (Translator), University of California Press; ISBN: 0520082249; Book Description from Amazon.com:The ancient system of thought known as Taoism remains today the least well known of the world's great religions and one of the most inaccessible aspects of Chinese culture. This is in large part because Western thought clings to the notion of the separation of matter and spirit, body and soul. Taoism refuses this dualism and considers the body's perfection as essential as the soul's redemption is to Christianity. Kristofer Schipper's elegant and lucid introduction to the traditions of Taoism and the masters who transmit them will reward all those interested in China and in religions. The result of over twenty-five years of research, including eight years of fieldwork in China, Schipper's book retraces, step by step, the way that leads from Chinese shamanism and traditional village life to the physical Tending Life techniques, which in turn lead to the mysticism of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Schipper shows the fundamental unity underlying all aspects of Taoism as Taoism considers itself to be. The social body, the community, the village, and the land corresponds in all aspects to the physical body in Taoism. In both of them the survival of humanity is decided here and now. "My destiny is within me, not in Heaven!" Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Where is this book available? -Neal White. - Marco Friday, January 10, 2003 8:57 AM Re: Re: Time, Suicide, and Creativity Dear Jim, Thanks a lot for the suggestion... Yet another book on my "hit list"... If the following book is in the English language (since I do not yet speak Chinese) It has been highly recommended. 身體與自然 (Shenti yu ziran) Body and nature, subtitled, taking the Huangdi neijing to discuss the view of the body in ancient and traditional China, by 蔡璧å, Cai Bi-ming published, NTU Wenshi congkan, 1997 國立å°ç£å¤§å¸æ–‡å²å¢åˆŠ, 1997 Has any one read it? Marco - James Ramholz <jramholz Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:25 PM Re: Time, Suicide, and Creativity > Marco wrote,> > What is/was the concept of body in Chinese medicine?Marco:One interesting place to start is The Taoist Bodyby Kristofer Schipper, Karen C. Duval (Translator), University of California Press; ISBN: 0520082249; Book Description from Amazon.com:The ancient system of thought known as Taoism remains today the least well known of the world's great religions and one of the most inaccessible aspects of Chinese culture. This is in large part because Western thought clings to the notion of the separation of matter and spirit, body and soul. Taoism refuses this dualism and considers the body's perfection as essential as the soul's redemption is to Christianity. Kristofer Schipper's elegant and lucid introduction to the traditions of Taoism and the masters who transmit them will reward all those interested in China and in religions. The result of over twenty-five years of research, including eight years of fieldwork in China, Schipper's book retraces, step by step, the way that leads from Chinese shamanism and traditional village life to the physical Tending Life techniques, which in turn lead to the mysticism of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Schipper shows the fundamental unity underlying all aspects of Taoism as Taoism considers itself to be. The social body, the community, the village, and the land corresponds in all aspects to the physical body in Taoism. In both of them the survival of humanity is decided here and now. "My destiny is within me, not in Heaven!" Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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