Guest guest Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 group, Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling pulse...? -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 , " < @h...> " <@h...> wrote: > group, > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling pulse...? > > -JAson just to be clear. any topic that is relevant to the practice of study of chinese herbology can be posted here, including those that involve diagnostics or combination therapy (herbs with acupuncture or supplements). The frame of reference can be pharmacological, clinical, theoretical, biomedical or TCM, as long as it relates to herbal practice. so, for example, long threads on acupuncture that have nothing to do with herbology are off topic, but sharing of experiences where combination acuherb therapy was more effective are allowed, as are posts suggesting acupuncture is more effective than herbology for certain complaints. post freely and I will decide what is off or on topic. FYI, I usually reject less than a dozen posts per year (out of about 5000). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " . Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to the Dai mai. Jim Ramholz , " <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > group, > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling pulse...? > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Jason - this is a translation of 'dai', it is a belt channel pulse. See my article in AT for graphic and verbal description of the pulse. This pulse is basically more full in the guan position than the others. http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2002/jan/01morris.html Will the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text, basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says "xian2 dai4 shuo4" - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 extra dai mai pulse. Thanx, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text, basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 extra dai mai pulse. Thanx, -JAson , " James Ramholz <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " . > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to the > Dai mai. > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > , " > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > group, > > > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling > pulse...? > > > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 There is also a diagram of this pulse in Miki and Chip's " Channel Divergences " text, no? On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 08:15 AM, WMorris116 wrote: > Jason - this is a translation of 'dai', it is a belt channel pulse. > See my article in AT for graphic and verbal description of the pulse. > This pulse is basically more full in the guan position than the > others. > > http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2002/jan/01morris.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Jason: Depending on the way the character is written, dai4 could also be an intermittent pulse. To make sure, you can compare the two dai characters by looking at Wiseman's E-C C-E Dictionary of Chinese Medicine, p.438. Jim Ramholz , " <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text, basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says > " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 extra dai mai pulse. Thanx, > > -JAson > > > > , " James Ramholz <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " . > > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to the > > Dai mai. > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > , " > > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > > group, > > > > > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling > > pulse...? > > > > > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 In a message dated 1/8/2003 10:57:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, zrosenbe writes: There is also a diagram of this pulse in Miki and Chip's "Channel Divergences" text, no? There is. Jeffrey Yuen talks about the Dai Mai being related to the divergent meridians - holding sublimated emotional material for someone. "Keeping it under their belt", which has really held with my patients who have presented with this pulse. Something is trying to come more to consciousness. Jeffrey Yuen has a lot of great information about the physical & emotional correlations of the 8 Extra Meridians which I use a lot in conjunction with Will's / Channel Divergences 8EM pulse info. I'm trying to look at herbal correspondences for the 8EM now. Does anyone have a source for information on that? I've found only a small amount online. Thanks, Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Ann - I refer to my article one because it is immediately and freely available. And two because it is the first organized English language version. In addition, it is graphically rendered in a clear and somewhat understandable fashion. In that article I cite two sources of Ye Tian Shi's commentary on herbs for the eight extraordinary vessels. One is Yang Tiande's translation posted by Al Stone at the acupuncture.com site. The other is Bob Flaw's translation at bluepoppy.com. The use of these pulse for establishing treatment herbal or acupuncturistic purposes often render powerful treatment outcomes in my experience and that of my students. Will Jeffrey Yuen has a lot of great information about the physical & emotional correlations of the 8 Extra Meridians which I use a lot in conjunction with Will's / Channel Divergences 8EM pulse info. I'm trying to look at herbal correspondences for the 8EM now. Does anyone have a source for information on that? I've found only a small amount online. Thanks, Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Thank you for the information, Will. I got your pulse information off of the pulse diagnosis list. It has been extraordinarily helpful (pun only partially intended) in my practice! I will look at your link to the article and the other links you suggest. It finally makes the 8EM useful in my pulse diagnosis and practice. -Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Jim you are right, but I guess the characters did not come through, because the character is definitely the one for girdling... -JAson , " James Ramholz <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > Jason: > > Depending on the way the character is written, dai4 could also be an > intermittent pulse. To make sure, you can compare the two dai > characters by looking at Wiseman's E-C C-E Dictionary of Chinese > Medicine, p.438. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > , " > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text, > basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says > > " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen > any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to > say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 > extra dai mai pulse. Thanx, > > > > -JAson > > > > > > > > , " James Ramholz > <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > > > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " . > > > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to > the > > > Dai mai. > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " > > > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > > > group, > > > > > > > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling > > > pulse...? > > > > > > > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Jason - Wang Shu-he is the earliest source I have, Li Shi Zhen aslo comments. Will Will, do you have an original source handy on this pulse or the *E in general... thanx, -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Jason - English Language - Blue Poppy press Lakeside Master, Mai Jing Paradigm Li Shi Zhen Pulse Diagnosis There are many modern character versions available in China. Will Do you know where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Chip Chace and Miki Shima's next book, as it turns out, will be a translation/commentary on herbal medicine and the 8 extraordinary vessels. I believe it will be published by Eastland Press. On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 10:33 PM, ajeffres wrote: > . I'm trying to look at herbal correspondences for the 8EM now. Does > anyone have a source for information on that? I've found only a small > amount online. > Thanks, > Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Jason, Dai here does not mean girdling. It is acting as a conjunction. It means " and " or " simultaneously. " Bob , " <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text, basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says > " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 extra dai mai pulse. Thanx, > > -JAson > > > > , " James Ramholz <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " . > > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to the > > Dai mai. > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > , " > > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > > group, > > > > > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling > > pulse...? > > > > > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Thank you Z'ev, Jim and Will... Will, do you have an original source handy on this pulse or the *E in general... thanx, -JAson , " James Ramholz <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > Jason: > > Depending on the way the character is written, dai4 could also be an > intermittent pulse. To make sure, you can compare the two dai > characters by looking at Wiseman's E-C C-E Dictionary of Chinese > Medicine, p.438. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > , " > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text, > basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says > > " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen > any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to > say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 > extra dai mai pulse. Thanx, > > > > -JAson > > > > > > > > , " James Ramholz > <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > > > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " . > > > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to > the > > > Dai mai. > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " > > > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > > > group, > > > > > > > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling > > > pulse...? > > > > > > > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Jason - > > Wang Shu-he is the earliest source I have, Li Shi Zhen aslo comments. > > Will > ' Do you know where? -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 , " Bob Flaws < pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Jason, > > Dai here does not mean girdling. It is acting as a conjunction. It > means " and " or " simultaneously. " > > Bob Is it just my impression or did the reading of a chinese character cause confusion that could only be rectified by a correct english translation. This underscores my contention that a little chinese can be dangerous. It also proves Bob's point that plugging away can be very helpful. there really appear to be as many pitfalls as insights in understanding at the early stages of learning to read chinese. And this was just a standard TCM text Jason refers to, nothing complex or arcane. Fact is many folks who are very guilty of MSU actually do know some chinese. Bravo to Jason for trying to understand this passage rather than basing treatment on erroneous speculation. It is just as possible to make errors based upon one's reading of chinese as one's reading of english. and arguably, when one reads at a first grade level in one language and a college level in the other, the likelihood is that one's comprehension will be far superior in the language they know well. While no one can argue about the long term value of learning to read chinese, except for a few virtuosos in the field, it will take a VERY long time to make this skill a truly productive one and in the meantime, there is great risk of making an error. At least when I read a wiseman translation, I know the rendering is accurate. In my own case, I will probably retire before I would be able to achieve this level of skill in chinese, if ever. So the ROI for me would be zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Bob, Thank you for the idea, but I am not convinced that you are correct on this one... Let us look at why I believe not: a) There are numerous other times in this same text that xian and shuo are used side by side. FYI, this text is in table format, it has a list of pulses for each pattern, most patterns have multiple descriptions, I.e. deep wiry (chen xian) - etc...- that is it - None of the others have any conjunctions. SO if there are no conj. used and 'xian shuo' are used multiple times on other patterns, why would this specific pattern decide to use a 'and' conj. The idea of 'and' or simultaneous is surely implied in the Chinese. (xian shuo) would not be interpreted and wiry and maybe rapid,- It is clearly wiry and rapid. (No need for a conj) b) dai4 is not used as a conjunction anywhere esle (so far) in the text, words like huo4 are the authors choice. c) I don't even see the idea of dai4 being used as a conj. in my dictionaries. IS it in yours? or is this an experiential observation? But even so It does not make sense here...??... Am I missing something? - , " Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Jason, > > Dai here does not mean girdling. It is acting as a conjunction. It > means " and " or " simultaneously. " > > Bob > > , " > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text, > basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says > > " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen > any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to > say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 extra > dai mai pulse. Thanx, > > > > -JAson > > > > > > > > , " James Ramholz > <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > > > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " . > > > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to the > > > Dai mai. > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " > > > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > > > group, > > > > > > > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling > > > pulse...? > > > > > > > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Jason, I can tell you from reading lots and lots of Chinese pulse books that the character dai is often used as a conjunction in this way. However, to settle the question, you need to ask a native-speaking Chinese doctor how they read it. I believe some of us are spinning our wheels here. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 > > Is it just my impression or did the reading of a chinese character cause > confusion that could only be rectified by a correct english translation. You're right. It is just your impression. It is also your ongoing assertion. Take a look at the logic of what you're saying here. You seem to be suggesting that the only way to understand Chinese is to translate it into English. If this were true, how could the Chinese understand anything? Only by translating it into English? This is obviously absurd. Were we to follow such logic, then ignorance of Chinese medical language would be considered as the sine qua non of understanding Chinese medical concepts? This > underscores my contention that a little chinese can be dangerous. As can be a little Chinese medicine. It is not the reading of a Chinese character that is causing confusion here. It is the mis-reading of a Chinese character and the general lack of familiarity with the meanings of Chinese characters which is manifesting, once again, as confusion about the meaning of Chinese medical terms and ideas. The solution is not to institutionalize ignorance. The solution is to democratize knowledge. Yes. It takes a VERY LONG TIME to learn Chinese medical language. As IT TAKES A VERY LONG TIME TO LEARN CHINESE MEDICINE. The long standing mistaken idea in the United States of America and elsewhere in the world is that it is all somehow quick and easy. It's not. And the sooner people wake up to this reality, the better off they are. It also > proves Bob's point that plugging away can be very helpful. there really > appear to be as many pitfalls as insights in understanding at the early stages > of learning to read chinese. Of course there are. There are pitfalls and insights in the early, middle, and late stages of learning...well...anything. And this was just a standard TCM text Jason > refers to, nothing complex or arcane. Fact is many folks who are very guilty of > MSU actually do know some chinese. Bravo to Jason for trying to understand > this passage rather than basing treatment on erroneous speculation. It is just > as possible to make errors based upon one's reading of chinese as one's > reading of english. Making errors is a necessity in learning. Bravo to Jason indeed for his effort, for his error, for his communication about it. And bravo to you for yours. The fact that we make errors while we learn is a very healthy sign. and arguably, when one reads at a first grade level in one > language and a college level in the other, the likelihood is that one's > comprehension will be far superior in the language they know well. Yes, obviously. But this self-evident statement hardly supports either your impression or your assertion that not knowing the Chinese words represents a better return on investment of one's time and attention than knowing them. While no > one can argue about the long term value of learning to read chinese, I am really confused. Are you not doing precisely this by stating that the return on investment for you in learning to read Chinese is zero? If no one can aruge about it, why are you? I'm not trying to be coy or facetious. I really don't understand the point you constantly make about it being of zero value to study Chinese medical language. except > for a few virtuosos in the field, it will take a VERY long time to make this skill a > truly productive one and in the meantime, there is great risk of making an > error. And after a very long time, it will be a very long time later. But will we have learned anything? That does not depend on how much time passes but on what we do during that time. And who are the virtuosos in the field who argue against the value of learning Chinese? Virtually all of the virtuosos in the field have or claim to have proficiency in Chinese. Is there anyone out there who promotes him or herself by saying " I don't know the first thing about Chinese medical language, but I am an expert in Chinese medicine. " ? Wouldn't that be an odd claim to make? Even Alon, who argues as you do about the ROI and time and so on says that he studied the language for a couple of years (if I remember correctly what he said) before he gave it up as being a poor use of his time. So who are the virtuosos who argue about it? At least when I read a wiseman translation, I know the rendering is > accurate. How? Nigel makes mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. It is not possible to study Chinese without making mistakes. We are all engaged in a large scale study of Chinese medicine. And we are making lots and lots of mistakes. We shall no doubt go on making lots and lots of mistakes. The Chinese medical literature itself is studded with records of mistakes that have been made since time immemorial. The MISTAKE is to elevate our mistakes to the level of laws, regulations, standards, graduation and certification requirements, and so on. And that is a grave mistake. In my own case, I will probably retire before I would be able to > achieve this level of skill in chinese, if ever. So the ROI for me would be zero. By couching your comments in personal terms you do not minimize their potential influence on those who read them. You are a highly intelligent individual. You are a teacher of the subject. You are the director of this list. If the ROI for you would be zero, then why would it be any different for anyone else? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Ken: All this theory aside, you didn't comment whether you can you confirm or deny that Dai4 here does not mean girdling. It is acting as a conjunction. It means " and " or " simultaneously. " Jim Ramholz , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > > > > > Is it just my impression or did the reading of a chinese character > cause > > confusion that could only be rectified by a correct english > translation. > > You're right. It is just your impression. > It is also your ongoing assertion. > Take a look at the logic of what you're > saying here. You seem to be suggesting > that the only way to understand Chinese > is to translate it into English. > > If this were true, how could the Chinese > understand anything? Only by translating > it into English? > > This is obviously absurd. > > Were we to follow such logic, then ignorance > of Chinese medical language would be considered > as the sine qua non of understanding Chinese > medical concepts? > > > This > > underscores my contention that a little chinese can be dangerous. > > As can be a little Chinese medicine. > > It is not the reading of a Chinese character > that is causing confusion here. It is the > mis-reading of a Chinese character and the > general lack of familiarity with the meanings > of Chinese characters which is manifesting, > once again, as confusion about the meaning > of Chinese medical terms and ideas. > > The solution is not to institutionalize > ignorance. The solution is to democratize > knowledge. > > Yes. It takes a VERY LONG TIME to learn > Chinese medical language. > > As IT TAKES A VERY LONG TIME TO LEARN > CHINESE MEDICINE. > > The long standing mistaken idea in the > United States of America and elsewhere > in the world is that it is all somehow > quick and easy. > > It's not. > > And the sooner people wake up to this > reality, the better off they are. > > > > > > It also > > proves Bob's point that plugging away can be very helpful. there > really > > appear to be as many pitfalls as insights in understanding at the > early stages > > of learning to read chinese. > > Of course there are. There are pitfalls > and insights in the early, middle, and > late stages of learning...well...anything. > > And this was just a standard TCM text Jason > > refers to, nothing complex or arcane. > > Fact is many folks who are very guilty of > > MSU actually do know some chinese. Bravo to Jason for trying to > understand > > this passage rather than basing treatment on erroneous > speculation. It is just > > as possible to make errors based upon one's reading of chinese as > one's > > reading of english. > > Making errors is a necessity in learning. > Bravo to Jason indeed for his effort, > for his error, for his communication > about it. And bravo to you for yours. > > The fact that we make errors while we > learn is a very healthy sign. > > and arguably, when one reads at a first grade level in one > > language and a college level in the other, the likelihood is that > one's > > comprehension will be far superior in the language they know well. > > Yes, obviously. But this self-evident statement > hardly supports either your impression or your > assertion that not knowing the Chinese words > represents a better return on investment of > one's time and attention than knowing them. > > While no > > one can argue about the long term value of learning to read > chinese, > > I am really confused. Are you not doing precisely > this by stating that the return on investment for > you in learning to read Chinese is zero? If no > one can aruge about it, why are you? > > I'm not trying to be coy or facetious. I really > don't understand the point you constantly make > about it being of zero value to study Chinese medical > language. > > except > > for a few virtuosos in the field, it will take a VERY long time to > make this skill a > > truly productive one and in the meantime, there is great risk of > making an > > error. > > And after a very long time, it will be > a very long time later. But will we have > learned anything? That does not depend > on how much time passes but on what we > do during that time. > > > And who are the virtuosos in the field who argue > against the value of learning Chinese? Virtually > all of the virtuosos in the field have or claim > to have proficiency in Chinese. Is there anyone > out there who promotes him or herself by saying > " I don't know the first thing about Chinese > medical language, but I am an expert in Chinese > medicine. " ? > > Wouldn't that be an odd claim to make? > > Even Alon, who argues as you do about the > ROI and time and so on says that he studied > the language for a couple of years (if I > remember correctly what he said) before > he gave it up as being a poor use of his > time. > > So who are the virtuosos who argue about it? > > At least when I read a wiseman translation, I know the rendering is > > accurate. > > How? > > Nigel makes mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. > It is not possible to study Chinese without > making mistakes. We are all engaged in a large scale > study of Chinese medicine. And we are making lots > and lots of mistakes. We shall no doubt go on > making lots and lots of mistakes. > > The Chinese medical literature itself is studded > with records of mistakes that have been made > since time immemorial. > > The MISTAKE is to elevate our mistakes to the > level of laws, regulations, standards, graduation > and certification requirements, and so > on. And that is a grave mistake. > > In my own case, I will probably retire before I would be able to > > achieve this level of skill in chinese, if ever. So the ROI for > me would be zero. > > By couching your comments in personal terms > you do not minimize their potential influence > on those who read them. You are a highly > intelligent individual. You are a teacher > of the subject. You are the director of > this list. If the ROI for you would be zero, > then why would it be any different for anyone > else? > > > > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Jim, > > All this theory aside, you didn't comment whether you can you > confirm or deny that Dai4 here does not mean girdling. It is acting > as a conjunction. It means " and " or " simultaneously. " Here is the definition of dai4 from Han4 Zi4 Xing2 Yi4 Fen1 Xi1 Zi4 Dian3: (Analysis of the Form and Meaning of Chinese Character) Published by Beijing University Publishing House 1999, Beijing " 1. girdle or things resembling a girdle, belt 2. area, i.e., a geographical region 3. to bring, carry, etc. 4. to lead, to guide, as a teacher guides a student to analyze the character, from Shuo1 Wen2 Jie3 Zi4, things that resemble a girdle, as a girdle must contain cloth, thus it (dai4) follows cloth (jin1) as its radical. The word's meaning extends to include anything that resembles a belt or girdle. It also means something that you carry on your waist. It also means to tie or wrap around and from this meaning it also extends to mean connect. " In order to comment on the meaning of the word in the passage that Jason originally cited, I'd have to see the Chinese passage. Jason, can you post the Chinese? If it was posted earlier, I didn't see it. Just to clarify, I wouldn't characterize what I said in my earlier post as theory. You can certainly set it aside, ignore it or whatever. But it isn't a theory. The highly speculative theory that we are discussing in round about ways is the theory that people can study and practice Chinese medicine without understanding the meanings of Chinese medical terms. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Eight extra ordinary pulses (are the "only" 8 pulses that reflects the 8 extraordinary vessels?)- Jim, Will Marco - No, the Eight extra ordinary pulses of Wang Shu-he are not the only ones. I understand Richard Tan teaches a different form of these. However, I have found Wang's version particularly reliable over the years for me and my students. There are exceptions to the interpretation of the pulse as one of Wang's patterns ie: (1) The yang qiao pulse that is full in the distal positions may be related to yin fire. (2) On the left wrist, the yang qiao pulse could be a small intestine-urinary bladder entry-exit block. (3) If one examines the right wrist for the postnatal creation of qi, blood and essence, the weaker proximal position suggests insufficient contribution of yuan qi to the generation of ying qi and wei qi. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Dear Ken and Jason and list:-) I would like to see either a list or this list do more what Jason did. Namely asked a highly open question. Open because presumably one has to see the Chinese characters and context. Although it is presumably a modern text book less I am mistaking the Chinese language has evolved as a highly "open" language, saying maximum with minimum words. Since apparently the Chinese language makes a different connotation associated with the words theory (and experience) Knowing practice - Judith Fariquh. Of hand something like "theory" is the realised potential. Surprisingly practical and pragmatically, for a cosmovision and culture and hence medical paradigm(s) that nearly always get laboured as "lofty-philosophical" implying non practical? Anyway that is an another unjust idea associated with Chinese medicine... Thus when Jason asked the question in which he has not claimed a definitive answer and hence is not mistaking or wrong per say (I am not Jason's lawyer ok:-). However I say this because sincerely the question has lead (potentially) to many aspects of Chinese medicine: Eight extra ordinary pulses (are the "only" 8 pulses that reflects the 8 extraordinary vessels?)- Jim, Will Syntax-Gramma of Chinese language- Bob Ken Reference to good sources People and materials - Ken and Bob Now what would be interesting is: If Bob Flaws approach is more relevant then how does the passage read in content and context? If Will and Jims approach is more relevant how does it change it? I am speculating but since it is a modern TCM book Bob approach is probably more relevant, however the mere fact that 8 extra vessels and pulse classics came up is in part aiding to realise potential of Chinese medicine (i.e. theory is highly practical). What is more is that now yet other books the pulse classics are on my hit list. I certainly feel that Kens endower with studying Chinese medicine from the well has and is "paying" of as is Jason's and Bob's. (If I could have two wife's I certainly would look for Chinese female doctor of Chinese medicine, not to understate the importance of going to the source:-) I have also come to realise via Jim and Will that the pulses would be folly to neglect, as indeed any aspect of Chinese medicine potentially is and nor does one thing exclude the other. The question is how to manage once studies, which really is a synonym for practice and vice versa in my opinion. Not to make a long letter and stating my sadness from being in a place where people believe "Chinese medicine" is done in three months ???? I hope that more questions about how to intepritate certain readings in terms of space time and context will be asked... I am unfortunately not yet at such a level to ask good questions (maybe lucky for the list;-) Hence thanks a lot to Jason... Needless to say Wiseman and Feng works are gems... but the translations by Wiseman and Feng have there fair criticisms, both in approach and choices of terms. Marco Ps. Ken I will of coarse get the Qi book once I can, referring to body and Chinese medicine thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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