Si ni san for all?

[Guest guest]

Group,

 

A common occurrence in woman is cold limbs. If after one rules out yang xu, and

one observes signs of internal or constrained heat (i.e. red tongue, thirst,

rapid / wiry pulse - or whatever) - THe flagship idea to consider seems to be si

ni san. A couple questions arise.

a) I have been under the impression that this Rx is normally not that common, or

should I say the Dx leading to this Rx. - yet I am finding myself using it (with

of course mods) quite often. What other pathomechanisms are available for

explaining cold limbs with no yang xu signs with lets say a red tongue. What is

your normal line of thinking here? Also how do you all view/ explain (dx) and

Tx a yang xu pattern that generates heat.??

b) So let's say one decides upon this idea to release to constraint to send out

heat ... How essential do you believe the chai hu / zhi shi combo is for this

TxP.? I have heard of people trying to use xiang fu for chai hu, and am unsure

if this does the same thing. What other herbal ideas do people use to treat

such a condition? I actually just wrote a Rx a few days ago - somewhat of an

experiment -(CC was cold limbs) it was si ni san + some yin nourishes and heat

clearers like zhi mu - - This will be interesting if it works... Comments?

 

-

[Guest guest]

I remember one of my teachers, Dr Cai at MCOM, mentioning that a well-

known professor at her school was known as the " Si ni san doctor "

because he used it as a basis for a large percentage of his

prescriptions.

 

Bensky has an interesting case in the Case Histories from the West

book in which he uses SNS substituting Yinchenhao for Chaihu to treat

a chronic achilles tendon problem.

 

robert hayden

http://jabinet.net

 

, "

<@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

>

> Group,

>

> A common occurrence in woman is cold limbs. If after one rules out

yang xu, and one observes signs of internal or constrained heat (i.e.

red tongue, thirst, rapid / wiry pulse - or whatever) - THe flagship

idea to consider seems to be si ni san. A couple questions arise.

> a) I have been under the impression that this Rx is normally not

that common, or should I say the Dx leading to this Rx. - yet I am

finding myself using it (with of course mods) quite often.

[Guest guest]

, " kampo36 <kampo36> "

<kampo36> wrote:

If after one rules out

> yang xu, and one observes signs of internal or constrained heat (i.e.

> red tongue, thirst, rapid / wiry pulse - or whatever) - THe flagship

> idea to consider seems to be si ni san. A couple questions arise.

> > a) I have been under the impression that this Rx is normally not

> that common, or should I say the Dx leading to this Rx. - yet I am

> finding myself using it (with of course mods) quite often.

 

funny, I typically see the reverse. clearcut signs of yang xu, but the patient

is

still diagnosed as Liver qi constraint. I mainly see this amongst those who

specialize in acupuncture as opposed to herbs. in most such cases, the

patient is prescribed a patent of xiao yao san if they receive any herbs at all.

According to Heiner fruehauf, xiao yao san was consciously based upon si ni

san plus dang gui shao yao san, yet this rx is not indicated for cold hands and

feet. In addition, si ni san is not indicated for truly cold hands and feet.

according to bensky, the sensation of cold is a subjective one and then

confined to the tips, not the whole extremity of the limb. I learned that limbs

that feel cold to the doctor do not indicate a possible dx of constrained heat.

I

have rarely seen a case of cold limbs in a middle aged woman that did not

involve qi or yang xu. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of young men

who fit the si ni san pattern.

 

[Guest guest]

Todd and Jason,

 

There are three si ni formulas, one each for blood vacuity, yang vacuity and qi

stagnation.

 

Respectively:

dang gui si ni tang

si ni tang

si ni san

 

I would see xiao yao san as a modification of si ni san, dang gui si ni san as a

modification of gui zhi tang, and si ni tang - fuzi based.

 

Will

 

> According to Heiner fruehauf, xiao yao san was consciously based upon si ni

> san plus dang gui shao yao san, yet this rx is not indicated for cold hands

and

> feet. In addition, si ni san is not indicated for truly cold hands and feet.

> according to bensky, the sensation of cold is a subjective one and then

> confined to the tips, not the whole extremity of the limb. I learned that

limbs

> that feel cold to the doctor do not indicate a possible dx of constrained

heat. I

> have rarely seen a case of cold limbs in a middle aged woman that did not

> involve qi or yang xu. On the other hand, I have seen

> plenty of young men

> who fit the si ni san pattern.