Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 , " Bob Flaws < pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Dear All, > > So far as I've read, no one has said they are interested in following > up on James and my suggestions to do a comparative study of various > extracts' concentration ratios (or other particulars). Bob This definitely interests me and perhaps Chinese Herbal Medicine is reasonably neutral on this matter. I have my personal a priori biases, but I am much more interested in providing some hard data for the profession. I would gladly change my mind about certain products if the data contradicted my assumptions. I think I could insure a pretty unbiased approach perhaps by having a group of blinded experts evaluate the data and report back to me. I have already contacted a few companies requesting a particular piece of data. while things like concentration rations and levels of contaminants are of great importance, my main interest is in being able to compare products using the only standard considered reliable by pharmacologists. Which is to determine the levels of particular marker ingredients delivered in the standard dosage recommended by the manufacturer of the product. Bill Egloff at Crane showed me information from a japanese company that does exactly this. Measuring levels of marker constituents is more accurate than concentration ratios, because a poor quality herb that is concentrated 10 times might be less effective than really good quality at lower concentration. Before anyone cries foul and thinks I am advocating required standardization of production techniques, I am not. I just want to know how to compare products of differing form in order to provide accurate dosage to my patients when using prepared products. As it stands right now, I cannot possibly see how many of the products on the market can deliver anywhere near the equivalent dosages of herbs I typically use in decoction, which is about 75- 100 grams per day. For me, phase one would be to establish the extraction levels of an active constituent in decoction form using raw herbs from a few suppliers. I would use a korean extractor for the decoction in order to insure controlled time and temperature in a closed environment. It might also be useful to do a few reference stovetop decoctions with various degrees of sloppiness or rigor. for fun, we could do a useful formula that is made by many companies, which is xiao chai hu tang. We could use the japanese established standards and measure the level of saikosaponins, baicalin and glycyrrhizin and compare the amounts delivered in mg/day to the same formula in prepared form from various companies. Or perhaps similar formulas in the case of companies that do not make classical formulas -- I think this can be done fairly and accurately -- a variation of xiao chai hu tang will still have a certain % of the same ingredients and adjustments can be made in the final analysis to compensate for slight differences. Also, the goal is not to reveal subtle differences, but gross ones. thus, it doesn't matter if there variations in levels of actives from 25% below or above the reference range. We would expect that type of variation in nature anyway. That is why the japanese model uses reference ranges, not absolute values, to standardize around. However it does matter greatly to myself and many others, including researchers and insurers, if there are differences in the strength of various products that I literally believe are on the level of 100 fold in some cases. for example a standard tincture (not an extract like kan or far east) delivers the extract of 5 grams of herb per ounce of fluid. If a tincture bottle lasts five days, the patient has consumed the extract of 1 gram of herbs per day, which is 100 times less than some of my decoctions. alcohol extraction is much more efficient than decoction, but I would like to know exactly how much. It is notable that British medical herbalists prescribe tinctures of SINGLE herbs at dosages of 1/2 oz. per day. I also need to point out that it does not really matter if many members in our field are satisfied with the status quo. It should matter to suppliers that many of us are not. And we will not prescribe products based merely upon subjective claims and persuasive advertising. As I said in an earlier post, you may not be able to be prescribe down to the exact millligram with raw herbs (and I am not advocating that for products, either,if you read closely), but an experienced herbal phamacist can certainly identify the difference between decent and crappy herbs. In which case, moderate dose decoctions will be pretty reliable in delivering a decent amount of actives within an acceptable fluctuation of ranges that can easily be corrected by adjusting dosage on an ongiong basis (something I often do by phone). We just need to get a ballpark idea of where various pills, tinctures, extracts, etc. fit into this range. Various companies clearly make products that taste and smell potent, but it has never been established how many of these products truly relate in dosage to an extraction. So even if it is the best extraction method around, that means nothing if doseage is inadequate on the level of 25-100 fold (BTW, for those who glaze over with math, this is potentially a 2,500% - 10,000% variation I am talking about here, not merely a 25%-100% variation!) Unfortunately, Chinese Herbal Medicine has not developed a way to raise capital for this and other projects of interest as of yet. One of the purposes of the upcoming June conference is to increase our visibility in hopes of creating some revenue for such things. If it looks like this will pan out, then perhaps preliminary steps could begin within a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 Bob, I think you raise a number of great questions. However, isn't assuming a company's environmental track record (like you say) also a subjective measure of a product's 'shoddiness'? I'm not trying to imply those aren't important factors in choosing a manufacturer, but objectivly, do they really have much to do with potency, purity, efficacy, of a product? One of my teachers in school visited a herbal product manufacturer in California and who uses recycled products etc.. But she said that it wouldn't be allowed to even operate in China due to the degree of sanitary conditions that would be required due to Chinese regulations. Again, I don't think that has any objective relevence in the potency, purity, or efficacy of the end product, but it's just another take on this subject. I'm sure that you can measure potency and purity of herbs through independent laboratories, but how could you even begin to measure the efficacy? For me, I appreciate hearing everyone's opinions, even though people disagree... This empirical evidence will have to do for now. Geoff > " Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 " > <pemachophel2001 > > Seems to me that there has been a conspicuous lack of real evidence > presented to substantiate people's choice of herb powders. > Mostly what > I've read here are choices based on very subjective > parameters such as > smell, taste, fineness of powder, etc. One person has said they > don't like Sun Ten (Brion) and another person has said they think > they are the best. One person has said they like the finer > ground powders and another has said they do not. As someone in the > industry, I am constantly amazed that, by and large, customers do not > ask more substantial questions regarding potency, purity, efficacy, > etc. Some people have voted in this forum for some brands which are > generally known within the industry to have a dubious reputation. > > As both a practitioner who prescribes Chinese meds and someone who > manufacturers and markets a line of extracts, here's the kinds of > questions I would be asking of my suppliers: > > 1. How are your products made? There are different processes out > there. I want to know exactly the steps and procedures used to > manufacture a product I am going to prescribe (and become legally > responsible for prescribing). I want to know exactly what > happens from > the time the raw materials enter the factory till the > finished product > is packaged for shipment. > > 2. Where are your products made and who provides the quality > assurance? For instance, is there state or national certification or > licensing? > > 3. Do you have certificates of analysis (COA) showing that what you > say is in the product is actually there? Are copies of these > available > to consumers upon request? > > 4. How are your products chosen or created? Who is the formulator and > what are his or her credentials? > > 5. What is the extract ratio? > > 6. Do you use any fillers or binders and, if so, what are they? > > 7. Do you use any sugars, artificial colors, or artificial flavors in > your products? If so, what are they and why do you use them? > > 8. Do you have your products tested for: > > A) microbial contamination? > B) heavy metals? > C) pesticides? > > If so, where are they tested? Who tests them? How often are they > tested? Are tbey tested in-house or by an independent company. What > specifically are they tested for, and what are the outcomes of these > tests? Are copies of these outcomes available to consumers upon > request? > > 9. Do you have any research or other evidence that supports your > product's safety and efficacy? If so, what kind of research or > evidence, done by whom and where? > > 10. What is your company's position on CITES (Commission on > international Trade in Endangered Species) and the use of endangered > species in medicine? What is your comapny's track record on these > issues? > > 11. What is your company's general environmental policy and track > record? Do you have an in-house recylcing program? Do you try to use > recycled papers and soy-based inks. Do you try to use chlorine free > papers? Do you use recyclable plastics in your packaging? Do you try > to keep you packaging to a minimum? While one may say that these > issues do not directly affect a medicinal's effectiveness, in my > experience, companies which are conscious and conscientious about > these kinds of things are less likely to produce a shoddy or unsafe > product. > > 12. Do you make a conscious and consistent effort to inform yourself > and comply with FDA regulations regarding the manufacture, packaging, > and labelling of herbal supplements? > > 13. Are you a member in good standing of AHPA (American Herb > Producers > Assoc.)? If not, why not? > > These are the kinds of questions I like to have answered before I buy > a product that I am going to become responsible for > prescribing. I can > also tell you, these are the kinds of questions that get asked in a > court of law when there are problems with Chinese herbal products. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 ....while things like concentration ratios and levels of contaminants are of great importance, my main interest is in being able to compare products using the only standard considered reliable by pharmacologists. Which is to determine the levels of particular marker ingredients delivered in the standard dosage recommended by the manufacturer of the product. As I believe I have previously mentioned in this forum, we have been doing this type of research on both raw materials and extraction methods since 1993. The more hard analytical data I see on quality issues the more I have come to value the use of lab analysis as a way to assess quality. As Todd correctly points out, extraction ratios tell an incomplete story without knowing the quality of what is being extracted. Also, the transfer rate varies considerably from one extraction method to another. (Transfer rate reflects what percentage of the phytochemical components are transferred during extraction from the raw material to the finished extract). The transfer rate of many bioactive components of herbs is much greater using ethanol (in varying percentages depending on the plant particulars) with water as part of the menstruum (solvent). My colleagues and I have set up a very capable analytical lab in Beijing to facilitate our ongoing research. Since we do not currently market products to the professional Chinese herb community we would consider providing some analytical services as an independent lab at much more favorable rates (roughly half the cost) than you would get in the US. In the end, in order to have TCM herbalists know enough to ask the kinds of questions Bob has suggested, I believe at least some of the required classroom education time for students of Chinese herbs should be devoted to quality control issues and the use of analytical labs. Stephen Morrissey P.S. Zev's point on the storage of suan zao ren is very important. We have seen the aflotoxin levels go to deadly levels on that ingredient when the raw material had been stored after harvest for 6 months. Even after extraction with hot H20 and ethanol the aflotoxin levels remained very high. If you think it tastes/smells a little moldy, toss it! Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 wrote: >>>The checking for aroma, test, and consistency are intuitive qualities, like that of a wine-taster.<<< Can anybody articulate what these intuitive qualites are, or is it simply your body's reaction to them? > Some products > containing suan zao ren suffered from rancidity after a short time, > meaning that even some spray-dried powders sometimes need > refrigeration, despite claims sometimes to the contrary. That reminds me. Does anybody else find that their herb extract of Lai Fu Zi smells a little like sour milk? I threw away one bottle, but when I reordered it, it smelled the same. This was actually from two different companies. Just made me wonder, is all. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 Measuring levels of marker constituents is more accurate than concentration ratios, because a poor quality herb that is concentrated 10 times might be less effective than really good quality at lower concentration >>Todd the problem with markers is that they do not necessarily mirror the rest of the herb. alcohol extraction is much more efficient than decoction, but I would like to know exactly how much. >>>but extracts different ingredients alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 Stephen is it true that many herbs cannot be reliably concentrated much above 8X1 and still be powdered? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 Geoff, I agree with you that a company's environmental consciousness and track record may be one of the least important of the questions I suggested. However, it is my experience that those companies which are environmentally conscious tend to also be very concerned over their products' safety and efficacy. I have yet to come across any companies were this connection was not operative. However, I do agree this may be one of the less important things to know about a supplier in terms of purity, potency, and efficacy. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 Stephen, Definitely, lab analysis in China is cheaper than in the U.S., and for practitioners' and scholars'personal knowledge purposes, lab analysis from China is fine (as long as everything being compared is analyzed in the same lab by the same techniques and equipment). However, for governmental purposes, it is, in our experience, unacceptable. Our distributors in the EU and Switzerland refuses to accept any Chinese lab work because, they say their governments refuse to accept any Chinese lab work. Do you have any experience with this? Bob , " Stephen Morrissey " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > > ...while things like concentration ratios and levels of contaminants are of > great importance, my main interest is in being able to compare products > using > the only standard considered reliable by pharmacologists. Which is to > determine the levels of particular marker ingredients delivered in the > standard > dosage recommended by the manufacturer of the product. > > > As I believe I have previously mentioned in this forum, we have been doing > this type of research on both raw materials and extraction methods since > 1993. The more hard analytical data I see on quality issues the more I have > come to value the use of lab analysis as a way to assess quality. As Todd > correctly points out, extraction ratios tell an incomplete story without > knowing the quality of what is being extracted. Also, the transfer rate > varies considerably from one extraction method to another. (Transfer rate > reflects what percentage of the phytochemical components are transferred > during extraction from the raw material to the finished extract). The > transfer rate of many bioactive components of herbs is much greater using > ethanol (in varying percentages depending on the plant particulars) with > water as part of the menstruum (solvent). > > My colleagues and I have set up a very capable analytical lab in Beijing to > facilitate our ongoing research. Since we do not currently market products > to the professional Chinese herb community we would consider providing some > analytical services as an independent lab at much more favorable rates > (roughly half the cost) than you would get in the US. > > In the end, in order to have TCM herbalists know enough to ask the kinds of > questions Bob has suggested, I believe at least some of the required > classroom education time for students of Chinese herbs should be devoted to > quality control issues and the use of analytical labs. > > > Stephen Morrissey > > > P.S. Zev's point on the storage of suan zao ren is very important. We have > seen the aflotoxin levels go to deadly levels on that ingredient when the > raw material had been stored after harvest for 6 months. Even after > extraction with hot H20 and ethanol the aflotoxin levels remained very high. > If you think it tastes/smells a little moldy, toss it! > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 At 3:52 PM +0000 1/16/03, Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: >But I strongly encourage someone to take the first step. If >no one is willing to take this step, then it suggests that we, as a >group, are really not interested in some of the issues we say we are. -- Bob, I started this thread, and I think your criteria are excellent. I do intend to follow up as you suggest, but I've been very busy. I'll try to delegate some of the work to people at the college, and mainly oversee it. Anyway, thanks for your suggestions. And thanks to all who offered opinions and information. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 -----Original Message----- Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] Stephen is it true that many herbs cannot be reliably concentrated much above 8X1 and still be powdered? Alon Alon, this has not been our experience. In fact the main way to exactly control extraction ratio is to take the final extracted liquid material and mix it into or with a carrier during spray or vacuum drying or while it is still in concentrated liquid form in order to achieve the targeted ratio. Otherwise, whatever you can manage to extract with the solvent and the techniques you use is what you get if your target is to obtain as broad a phytochemical spectrum as possible. Very often that ratio naturally gravitates to a 10 to one on average when using water/ethanol combinations and typically a bit lower concentration ratio with water. Each different plant material has its own physical characteristics that dictate whether it is easily powdered or not. We powder many extracts in the ten to one range. Hou pu, for example, is particularly sticky and requires more creative approaches to making its 10 to 1 powder user friendly. Stephen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 , " Stephen Morrissey " < stephen@b...> wrote: > My colleagues and I have set up a very capable analytical lab in Beijing to > facilitate our ongoing research. Since we do not currently market products > to the professional Chinese herb community we would consider providing some > analytical services as an independent lab at much more favorable rates > (roughly half the cost) than you would get in the US. I think this would be more than adequate for our purposes in conducting such a study designed mainly to inform practitioners. I wonder if you already have any data on what level of constituents a controlled water decoction extracts from 100 grams of herbs. Because that will be my standard for comparison. It seems the most reasonable standard because it is about the average size formula one finds in typical formularies and texts on internal medicine available in english as well as being similar in size (if not smaller) than hundreds of research formulas that have been abstracted in various english publications. > In the end, in order to have TCM herbalists know enough to ask the kinds of > questions Bob has suggested, I believe at least some of the required > classroom education time for students of Chinese herbs should be devoted to quality control issues and the use of analytical labs. I feel the same way and have an upcoming article in the OM News from PCOM stressing the importance of insuring that our doctoral candidates have this type of knowledge. Particularly because I want us to be educated enough to responsibly self regulate before public hysteria causes the government to do something very prohibitive. > P.S. Zev's point on the storage of suan zao ren is very important. We have > seen the aflotoxin levels go to deadly levels on that ingredient when the > raw material had been stored after harvest for 6 months. It is ironically far safer to spray suan zao ren with a fungicide than it is to risk exposure to afflatoxins. Just like with peanuts. Correct me if I am worng, but afflatoxins, a naturally occurring by-product of certain fungi, I believe, are amongst the most carcinogenic substances. I was not aware of this concern for suan zao ren. Does roasting the suan zao ren right after harvest prevent this problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 Stephen, Your post contained some really good information. However, it's the EU and Swiss governmental agencies which will not accept the Chinese lab reports. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 Simon, What with Stephen and your posts, I think that now we are getting some really useful information on all of this. This is all very complex. Thanks. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 , " Simon " <s.becker@l...> wrote: Determining the amount of substance (quantitative > analysis) is more difficult and especially much more expensive. thank-you, simon. this is unfortunate. if we cannot test for quantity of actives, this is a waste of time. many companies already tests for the presence of actives, but this is of much less value. at least we know we got the right thing, but how much is more important to me. I am sure you are right as to the reasons why companies avoid this issue. Persoanlly, I have switched back to the use of raw herbs in almost all patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 Each different plant material has its own physical characteristics that dictate whether it is easily powdered or not. We powder many extracts in the ten to one range. Hou pu, for example, is particularly sticky and requires more creative approaches to making its 10 to 1 powder user friendly. >>>>is going higher than 10X1 difficult? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 The problem in the US is that there are no laws requiring testing (at leastnot that I am aware of). Sometimes we order products from the US and testthem prior to selling them. Unfortunately, I have found all kinds of toxins,most strikingly aflatoxins, cadmium (our limit is 0.5 here, I believe it ishigher in the US. However, Cd levels of 0.9 seem a bit high to me), andAristolochic acid >>>Simon thanks for elaborating on my previous statement. Here in CA some of the companies get analysis from the CA FDA which checks some of the above mentioned impurities. The problem is that it is done only patchily. For years I have tried to push the companies I buy from to be more consistent, it has been difficult. What are the levels of aflatoxins you have been finding. Aflatoxins are extremely toxic we need much more information on this. It is the first time I hear of this. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 It still seems to me that alcohol extracted herbs are different than water extracted herbs. The proper ratios of herbs are determined by formulas based upon texts like the Shan Han Lun which used water extraction or herbs that were crushed into powders. There seems to me a faulty line of logic that assumes alcohol extraction are identical - or taunted as superior to the formulas reverenced. One does create a different product. May be superior but it is different - isn't it? Why are some herbs twice cooked, pan fried, some added early some last? Why not cook herbs according to the Text (Shan Han Lun for example) Dehydrate to powders, rehydrate to use and then compared the reconstituted herbs to the original cooked herbs. The same comparisons could be made with single herbs and then combining to compare with the original cooked formula. The question of heavy metals, chemicals, pesticides are an important but secondary issue. My argument is that the standard should be how does it compare to the original text - without the hype. Ed Kasper LAc Santa Cruz, CA. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release 1/10/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 , " ALON MARCUS " < alonmarcus@w...> wrote: Aflatoxins are extremely toxic we need much more information on this. It is the first time I hear of this. > Alon I would like to know what other herbs have common aflatoxin problems. also, are they contaminated during growth or storage. If during storage, what can be done to prevent this. Ironically, sulfur is a powerful fungicide. I used it in my garden all the time in moldy Oregon. I bet sulfur prevents the fungal growth that produces these toxins. It is thus a matter of when treatment is necessary. I hate to say this, but this is another issue we have to address before the feds require all our herbs to be sprayed at customs. It may require that we allow selective spraying of culprit herbs like suan zao ren. I did doublecheck and aflatoxins include the most potent hepatocarcinogens ever studied. I wonder if aflatoxins were actually responsible for the aristolochic acid hysteria. s for sulfur, this is another hysterical issue. An extremely small % of people have true sulfite allergies. And no one is actually allergic to ionic sulfur, as it is a major tissue constituent and has too low a molecuclar weight to initiate allergy anyway. It is far more likely that people are reacting to pollen of certain highly allergenic plants like ragweeds, quite a few of which are chinese herbs (sorry, don't know which ones offhand). We may need to revisit the sulfur issue since less than1% of the population has sulfite allergies, but a healthy adult could die within 72 hours of aflatoxin exposure. BTW, I have heard all the sulfur anecdotes out there; these anecdotes do not square with modern science. People who think they are reacting to sulfur are most definitely reacting to something else (they may be homeopathic provers, for example). In some cases, herbs may be chemically sulfited and this may pose a big risk for a very few, but I do not think this is prevalent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Does roasting the suan zao ren right after harvest prevent this problem (aflotoxin)? I would say that any influence that dries out the moisture content would be helpful since high moisture content is a key instigator of the mold growth. But that's just speculation since I haven't actually tested this idea. Certainly storage conditions are important as well. Stephen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 At 7:20 AM +0000 1/17/03, < wrote: > > In the end, in order to have TCM herbalists know enough to ask the kinds of >> questions Bob has suggested, I believe at least some of the required >> classroom education time for students of Chinese herbs should be devoted >to quality control issues and the use of analytical labs. > >I feel the same way and have an upcoming article in the OM News from >PCOM stressing the importance of insuring that our doctoral candidates have >this type of knowledge. Particularly because I want us to be educated enough >to responsibly self regulate before public hysteria causes the government to >do something very prohibitive. --- Will there be any presentations along the lines of the issues raised in this thread at the upcoming CHA conference. It seems that there are several possible lecture subjects that would be very useful to practitioners. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 Aflatoxin analysis is comparativley inexpensive. I suggest you take a bottle of Bai Zi Ren and possibly Yan hu Suo from several different companies and send them to a lab. If the levels are too high, let the company know. Then they will most likely begin testing. >>>I think we should all pressure the companies to provide certificate of analysis for alfatoxins. I am going to with my supplier. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 Taiwan, where most the granules come from, is also not a PIC country >>>I thought many of the taiwan labs are GMP certified by Germany Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 According to our distributors, they will accpet U.S. lab analyses. However, they have their own laundry lists of what they want tested. Bob > That's certainly different that what I was envisioning. I would be > surprised if the EU and Suisse Gov't would accept US lab results either. Do > you know? > > Stephen > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 This is not my impression. All GMP certificates I have seen were issued by the Taiwanese Ministry of Health. Simon >>>Thanks I remember seeing literature from shengcheng that they meet German GMP Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 I think that is a great idea. While you are at it, ask for a certificate for the Mercury (Hg) content of Gelatinum Asinii (E Jiao). >>I will. I did ask for sea products CA and it looked good. Mu Li, Hai Zao and Hai Dai (Min Tong) Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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