language vs. ???

[Guest guest]

As I have said a dozen times of more, the only way a school like PCOM

could add language at the master's level is to eliminate other classes.

Students already cannot keep up with the load. and those who think

learning chinese would only add advantage to the students education are

projecting like crazy. Once upon a time I put in many hours trying to

learn chinese. During those few hundred hours, I learned nothing

CLINICALLY useful and took huge amounts of time away from other studies

that were much more useful to me, such as materia medica and formulas. I

have no doubt the day would come when this would start giving me ROI, but

it would not happen during master's training and it would greatly dilute

the acquisition of important data at this stage. I believe my experience

with learning chinese is typical. americans are notorious for our poor

ability to acquire language, especially after childhood. Those of you who

feel differently are clearly exceptional on some level and it is unfair to

project your experience onto the rest of the field. I can do complicated

mathematical computations in my head which many of my students cannot

follow even when I write the equations on the board. This is a simple

matter to me, but I know most people have no chance of learning math after

childhood. I find certain math skills extremely helpful in herbal

medicine, especially related to dose and dose conversion. Should we

require our students to get 600 or better on math SAT's? Of course not.

Not everything comes easily to everyone. How about we not only kick those

who can't read chinese out of the profession, but let's also kick those

who can't pass the MCATs or do college level math.

 

the issue is time. You need time to learn these skills. If there was

more time in entry level program, such as the entry level DAOM suggested

by ACAOM recently, then it would make sense to require chinese, which PCOM

has done in the DAOM program. BTW, does anyone know whether bastyr has

dropped this ball, too? but the only classes that could be removed from

the current PCOM program without severely damaging one's education

necessary to practice internal herbal med are what are called the allied

arts (massage and tai ji, qi gong). There is NO will to do this, as these

classes contribute to the practice of external medicine and professional

development. When I mentioned this last time, there was a lot of backlash,

as I expected there would be. Personally, I think there should be an

OPTION to study chinese at the master's level instead of allied arts. I

would have done that. But to merely add chinese to program like PCOM

would have only one likely effect, IMO. Students would have an even

harder time memorizing materia media and basic theory. I am NOT playing

devil's advocate here, BTW.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre

minds " -- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

I learned nothing CLINICALLY useful and took huge amounts of time away from other studies that were much more useful to me, such as materia medica and formulas. I have no doubt the day would come when this would start giving me ROI, but it would not happen during master's training and it would greatly dilute the acquisition of important data at this stage.

>>>And by that time there would be more good translation than you could possibly absorb

Alon

[Guest guest]

studying the language in school forces one to become clear on ter= minology (as Tim pointed out) and only enhances one's understanding of basic= fundamentals.

>>>Why cant you study the terminology?

Alon

[Guest guest]

But = I think everyone should have this opportunity.

>>It should definitely be available.

Alon

[Guest guest]

, <@i...> wrote:

> As I have said a dozen times of more, the only way a school like PCOM

> could add language at the master's level is to eliminate other classes. =

 

> Students already cannot keep up with the load. and those who think

> learning chinese would only add advantage to the students education are

> projecting like crazy. Once upon a time I put in many hours trying to

> learn chinese. During those few hundred hours, I learned nothing

> CLINICALLY useful and took huge amounts of time away from other studies

> that were much more useful to me, such as materia medica and formulas. I=

 

> have no doubt the day would come when this would start giving me ROI, but=

 

> it would not happen during master's training and it would greatly dilute =

 

> the acquisition of important data at this stage.

 

 

This is debatable... Firstly, if the institutions actually presented themse=

lves with the rigor of a normal graduate level curriculum, instead of a summ=

er-camp, holding students responsible for material, then acquisition of mate=

rial could be at a much higher level. We all know that acupuncture school i=

s some-what of a joke. People skate by. People work 40 hours a week and go=

to school, while raising a family. And then whine about how hard it is and=

they can't remember the herbs… Trust me, I give them immense KUDOS for doin=

g so much, but come on, what do we expect.? Do you know how hard it is to a=

ctually fail a class? Well we all should know… Maybe I am only seeing a sma=

ll % , through my gray-colored lenses, and if so please correct me. But I be=

lieve that studying the language in school forces one to become clear on ter=

minology (as Tim pointed out) and only enhances one's understanding of basic=

fundamentals. Yes this could be done without Chinese, But it does not occu=

r. So, one can kill 2 birds with one stone. First, one can provide a foundat=

ion for future study of Chinese language, and secondarily, through this, one=

starts to force students to be clear on terminology, which would then force=

the teachers to be clear in what they say. In my experience many teachers,=

because they were educated many years ago, or for whatever reason, use very=

strange terms. With the strangeness of terms, comes strangeness of ideas, =

which we all know is the foundation of MSU. Because of the lack of rigor, c=

lasses seem to be constantly repeating information, I think there is much mo=

re room than one perceives. As far as PCOM goes, for constantly canceling C=

hinese classes, I have two comments. Firstly I think this is a financial is=

sue. Because the class is an elective, and most students are taking out loa=

ns, who wants to spend an extra $600-$800 out of pocket to pay for the class=

… when I went to PCOM, because of this financial issue, there was always und=

erground medical Chinese classes offered outside of school for around $200. =

People did take these classes! But this is also another reason why the PCOM=

`official' class kept getting canceled. I personally think it should be ma=

ndatory two semesters. And in OCOM's case there clearly is a way to creep i=

t in. AXE the QIGONG! And if those underground classes did not exist, then =

I would never have gotten where I am at today.

 

 

I believe my experience

> with learning chinese is typical. americans are notorious for our poor

> ability to acquire language, especially after childhood. Those of you wh=

o

> feel differently are clearly exceptional on some level and it is unfair t=

o

> project your experience onto the rest of the field.

 

I can truthfully say that I'm learning Chinese and I have 0 exceptional ski=

lls in language… but I think the real point here is this -- Todd and Alon ha=

ve put forth the effort, understand the basics, and have decided that it is =

not for them. This is fine and they definitely excel in other areas.. But =

I think everyone should have this opportunity. Just as 95 percent of people=

will not continue to do qigong after graduation, at least they get the expo=

sure. IMO, This should be the same in a graduate level course for Chinese m=

edical terminology. Some will continue and some will not but none will if t=

hey never get the initial exposure… Personally I never use all the 2 semster=

s of ONE that I was taught, but then again I am focusing on neike (internal =

medicine) and the lang seems much more valueable.

 

 

-

[Guest guest]

, <@i...> wrote:

> As I have said a dozen times of more, the only way a school like PCOM

> could add language at the master's level is to eliminate other classes.

[ . . . .]

> the issue is time. You need time to learn these skills. If there was

> more time in entry level program, such as the entry level DAOM

suggested

> by ACAOM recently, then it would make sense to require chinese

 

Time is not the only issue. Money is, im my opinion, the bigger issue

for students. My tuition this term alone has already passed the

$5,000 mark, NOT accounting for books, supplies, life. Those making

the argument to extend our required hours or add more classes to the

load must remember that our profession does not support students with

scholarships, grants, fellowships, or other supplements to basic

financial aid.

 

Laurie Burton

student

[Guest guest]

, " burtonperez <tgperez@e...>

" <tgperez@e...> wrote:

Money is, im my opinion, the bigger issue

> for students. My tuition this term alone has already passed the

> $5,000 mark, NOT accounting for books, supplies, life. Those making

> the argument to extend our required hours or add more classes to the

> load must remember that our profession does not support students with

> scholarships, grants, fellowships, or other supplements to basic

> financial aid.

 

Laurie

 

good point. I was thinking about how much chinese one would have to add to

make it useful. 1 three credit class is 42 hours per semester. How many

semesters would one need to study chinese to make it effective. Probably all

of them. But perhaps the study of chinese could be incorporated into all

upper level classes in the form of requiring students to use translated material

to complete assignments or on exams. I know SIOM found that they could not

accommodate any chinese training onsite and it is now a prereq. I wonder to

what extent they incorporate it in the program? Do students study from

chinese language sources. Do they do assignments in chinese? Unless one

does this kind of incorporation throughout the program, then it would be

necessary to study chinese as an independent subject throughout the

program.

 

If we examine these two options, we immediately see that having a three

credit class in medical chinese every semester is completely unfeasible. this

would add 504 hours to the program, making the PCOM masters a 3700 hour

program, which is just 300 less than the total required for a DAOM , yet it

would met few of ACAOM's requirements for such a program if that much

chinese was studied.

 

I believe the PCOM doctorate includes 5 two credit classes in medical

chinese, which is 140 hours of study. I am not sure to what extent medical

chinese will emphasized in other classes or in the clinic, but I suspect it will

be

variable. It is my understanding that the classic classes will use english

translations as their texts, not chinese originals. the clinic will be an

integrative setting that involves clinicians working in teams under the

supervision of a doctor from china who is experienced in one of three

specialties plus a doctor who is expert in chinese classics, plus an MD. The

MD's do not know chinese, so that at least means most communication will be

in english. Students may use their chinese skills to do research, etc. A

number of people with long experience learning chinese have commented to

me that the PCOM DAOM program will not allow students to actually be able

to read chinese in any efficient manner. It will only lay the foundation for

several to many more years of study in order to be able to do pretty decent

translation (depending on one's aptitude).

 

the only option that would might be feasible is the other one where the use of

medical chinese would be incorporated into all upper level classes. I would

submit that in the master's program, students would be better off using english

language texts, because no matter how much chinese they study in their first

year of school, they will be able to absorb much much more information from

texts written in a language they have spoken their whole life than with a first

grade reading ability in chinese. To be perfectly honest, I see no possible

way one could learn to read chinese while in school at a level that would

allow one to basically learn chinese medicine in chinese. Even SIOM makes

chinese a prereq, but they still teach in english and use english texts, as far

as

I know. If we are to have the situation where students of TCM truly have

access to chinese sources, they would have to take four years of chinese as a

prereq. And I am basing this estimate on reports to me from most of the

people I know who study chinese. That it has taken them many years to read

it efficiently. Translating one page in 12 hours may provide illuminating

information, but is clearly not an adequte way to educate people. So lets be

clear here. to learn TCM in chinese, one must be able to read it as well as

one reads english. otherwise, there is not enough time in 4 years to read

everything one needs to read. You just can't take 12 times longer to do your

homework.

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

You frame the discussion of language as if

the incorporation of teaching that moves

towards a recognition of the importance of

knowing the meaning of the terminology of

traditional Chinese medicine must displace

other teaching.

 

I don't think this is accurate, and

it serves as a straw man argument:

since obviously you can't teach

the Chinese language in the existing

curricula adequately, then it's

illogical, impractical, etc.

 

But with one or two introductory courses placed

near or at its beginning, a curriculum that

included courses that simply introduced

the terms with which they deal could

seamlessly incorporate material that

would help students become familiar with

the integral meanings of the Chinese

medical terms that inform the theories

and methods they are learning in all

of their other courses.

 

 

Ken