Learning Chinese TERMINOLOGY v learning the Chinese language

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

On the question: should study of Chinese be an essential part of

the study of TCM:

 

This is long. The bottom line is that the MAIN interest of those who

study medicine (AP/TCM/western medicine) is to master its

theoretical principles and practical applications.

 

IMO, CHM and AP schools would be better to teach the Pinyin

terms alongside the English (or local-language) terms but FORGET

about teaching the Chinese language as part of the medical

course. If we want to learn Chinese, we should go for proper

training in Chinese elsewhere. But most of us have not the stamina

for that!

 

Apart from veterinary medicine and complementary medicine

(acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal medicine), there are so many

areas of study that I would love to have mastered - archaeology,

world history, anthropology, comparative religion, art, music,

quantum- and particle- physics, how to " call in " turtles (it might

help me to " call in " salmon to my lure!), etc.

 

But the reality is that no human being can be expert in all areas;

most of us find it difficult to be a master of one area!

 

When I began to study acupuncture in 1973, I was friendly with

Professor Tao Chiang, a Chinese-born professor of astronomy who

lived nearby. Tao was head of the national Observatory in DUblin;

he was also a lecturer in Chinese for a small group of people who

were learning the language in night-classes in a Dublin university.

 

Tao was most helpful and translated any Chinese articles that I

wanted to understand. Without telling him, I decided to try to self-

teach myself enough Chinese to be able to recognise the Wade-

Gilles pronunciation and meanings for the more common

ideograms (organs, channels, points, key terms) used in the few

Chinese texts and books that I had on acupuncture at that time.

 

After several weeks of futile effort, I asked Tao if he thought that I

would benefit from attending his formal classes in Chinese. His

answer stunned me!

 

He told me that, firstly, though he was fluent in modern spoken and

written Chinese, HE could NOT understand the exact intended

meaning of many of the ideograms that he had translated for me!

 

He explained that Chinese is a very subtle language and that the

meanings of ideograms change with time and context. He also

explained that modern scholars of Chinese often cannot decipher

the intended meanings in medieval texts, not to mention the more

ancient Classics.

 

Secondly, he stressed that Chinese is a most difficult language for

westerners to learn; that mastery of even the terminology used in

medical literature would take several years of full-time study. He

also explained that ideograms often become corrupted by copyists

who use incorrect ideograms based on homophones (like sounds).

 

Tao's final advice to me was to forget about learning Chinese; that

my time (and Qi) would be better spent learning the theory and

practice of acupuncture & TCM from good translations and modern

texts in English or French [i can read some French OK].

 

Reluctantly, I took his advice and concentrated on the theory and

practical aspects of TCM. With repetition over the years, and

having read " Grasping the Wind " (a beautiful book) many times,

and some others that include the Pinyin and English terms, some

of the terms have stuck in my head as " sounds " . Subconsciously, I

recognise the meaning of some terms, like Huanglian (Yellow

Thread - Coptis); Fei Shu = LU Shu, Waiguan = Outer Gate,

Shenmen = Spirit Door, in Xu use Bu; in Shi use Xie, etc. But that

is a FAR cry from being able to read or understand a textbook or

journal written in ideogrammatic Chinese!

 

That said, I have been collecting ideograms and their Pinyin

expression for a few years now, so that I can search Google using

the IDEOGRAMS for herbal pages written in Chinese. By having

Babelfish open in a second browser window, I can pass the

Chinese URL to Babelfish [

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr ] and get a partial

(imperfect but technically useful) FREE translation online.

 

Have any of you used Babelfish for that purpose?

 

In summary, I KNOW that it would be most helpful if I/we could

read the Chinese texts and journals in the original language. But I

believe that it is more practical and pragmatic for MOST non-

Chinese readers/students to rely on good lecturers and texts

written in our own languages than to " waste " several years of our

lives learning a language that we will probably never use properly,

and (because of the time " lost " ) miss out on our real study " - the

study of the principles and practice of medicine and TCM.

 

I really appreciate it that there ARE experts in Chinese (and other

Asian languages) on these Lists. Such colleagues are invaluable

(indeed indispensible) when we need to discuss the intended

meanings of the ideograms. THAT is the beauty of these

discussion lists; the range of talents on them is fantastic.

 

Long may these lists prosper!

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

WWW :

Email: <

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

Email: <

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@e...> wrote:

By having Babelfish open in a second browser window, I can pass the

> Chinese URL to Babelfish

[http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr] and get a partial

> (imperfect but technically useful) FREE translation online.

 

 

Phil:

 

This is pretty neat. Thanks.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

Thanks for you input on this topic.

 

I've got a couple of questions and comments,

below:

 

, " "

<@e...> wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> On the question: should study of Chinese be an essential part of

> the study of TCM:

>

> This is long. The bottom line is that the MAIN interest of those

who

> study medicine (AP/TCM/western medicine) is to master its

> theoretical principles and practical applications.

 

Do you see any relationship between the theoretical

principles/pracitcal applications of traditional

Chinese medicine and the modes of thought and

expression that are embedded in the langauge?

 

 

>

> IMO, CHM and AP schools would be better to teach the Pinyin

> terms alongside the English (or local-language) terms but FORGET

> about teaching the Chinese language as part of the medical

> course.

 

If the handling of Chinese language is limited

to pinyin, what benefit do students get? After

all, pinyin simply provides a pronounciation

guide. It would be equivalent to spelling out

English words with Chinese characters that

produce roughly equivalent sounds when spoken.

 

It would help anyone understand either the

meanings of the words of the structure of the

thought and logic of the theories.

 

If we want to learn Chinese, we should go for proper

> training in Chinese elsewhere. But most of us have not the stamina

> for that!

 

When I first came to China, now more than 10

years ago, it was very rare to find foreigners

who were fluent in Chinese. Today the picture

is completely different. In Beijing I run

into non-Chinese who are fluent speakers,

readers, writers of the language nearly

every day. And most of these people are

here holding down well paid jobs.

 

What provides the motivation to overcome

any lack of stamina is the perception that

the effort required will result in better

survival.

 

 

>

> Apart from veterinary medicine and complementary medicine

> (acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal medicine), there are so many

> areas of study that I would love to have mastered - archaeology,

> world history, anthropology, comparative religion, art, music,

> quantum- and particle- physics, how to " call in " turtles (it might

> help me to " call in " salmon to my lure!), etc.

 

Mastery of any subject is usually a matter

of the evaluation of others. Study and

self-growth is something that is more

or less up to ourselves. My message to

all of my colleagues and fellow students

of the subject is that we should all be

concerned with continual self-improvement.

In nature, things are either expanding or

contracting. While we have life and

consciousness, it's never too late or

too difficult to " master " anything we

set our minds to.

 

 

>

> But the reality is that no human being can be expert in all areas;

> most of us find it difficult to be a master of one area!

 

Difficulty can be interpreted in many ways.

To some, it is merely the measure of the

challenges that they accept.

 

Have you ever read Richard Feynmann's

What Do You Really Care What Other People Think?

 

>

> When I began to study acupuncture in 1973, I was friendly with

> Professor Tao Chiang, a Chinese-born professor of astronomy who

> lived nearby. Tao was head of the national Observatory in DUblin;

> he was also a lecturer in Chinese for a small group of people who

> were learning the language in night-classes in a Dublin university.

>

> Tao was most helpful and translated any Chinese articles that I

> wanted to understand. Without telling him, I decided to try to

self-

> teach myself enough Chinese to be able to recognise the Wade-

> Gilles pronunciation and meanings for the more common

> ideograms (organs, channels, points, key terms) used in the few

> Chinese texts and books that I had on acupuncture at that time.

>

> After several weeks of futile effort, I asked Tao if he thought

that I

> would benefit from attending his formal classes in Chinese. His

> answer stunned me!

>

> He told me that, firstly, though he was fluent in modern spoken

and

> written Chinese, HE could NOT understand the exact intended

> meaning of many of the ideograms that he had translated for me!

 

This is a conceit of many Chinese. Obviously

he understood something, or he would not have

had the slightest idea of what to tell you

about the meaning. What he was referring to

was the requirement of Chinese scholarship

that it engage the interpretive and creative

imagination of the scholar.

 

This is a very important skill, I contend,

for students and practitioners of Chinese

medicine to develop, as the challenges of

facing a patient in the clinic meet or

exceed the challenges of facing the meaning

of a Chinese character.

 

 

>

> He explained that Chinese is a very subtle language and that the

> meanings of ideograms change with time and context. He also

> explained that modern scholars of Chinese often cannot decipher

> the intended meanings in medieval texts, not to mention the more

> ancient Classics.

 

Again, what you are describing is a more

or less typical attitude of Chinese scholars.

The critical thing you have to include in

such descriptions is that this does not

stop them from pursuing these meanings.

 

Maybe a more accurate way of saying this

is that it stops some...those are the ones

who truly do not have the stamina.

 

 

>

> Secondly, he stressed that Chinese is a most difficult language

for

> westerners to learn;

 

Well, this has changed dramatically over

the past couple of decades. All it takes

is the perceived need to learn it and,

presto, Westerners become masters of

Chinese.

 

that mastery of even the terminology used in

> medical literature would take several years of full-time study. He

> also explained that ideograms often become corrupted by copyists

> who use incorrect ideograms based on homophones (like sounds).

 

Yes. As I've said many times, it's a complex

and difficult study.

 

Did you ask Mr. Tao about Chinese medicine

per se? The most common response I have

always gotten from Chinese people when

they find out that I study Chinese medicine

is, " How can that be? Chinese medicine

is so difficult even for us Chinese to

study? How can a foreigner possibly understand

it? "

 

Point is that these comments of your old

friend need to be understood in a broader

context and taken with a grain of salt.

 

 

>

> Tao's final advice to me was to forget about learning Chinese;

that

> my time (and Qi) would be better spent learning the theory and

> practice of acupuncture & TCM from good translations and modern

> texts in English or French [i can read some French OK].

 

Another common tactic of Chinese. Every martial

arts teacher I've ever met in China has tried

to dissuade me from studying. If you encourage

every student, goes the traditional reasoning,

then you waste your time with many who lack

the intent...and stamina to stick with it.

 

A typical scenario is the one in which the

student must knock on the door many times

before being allowed inside.

 

I'll leave it at that.

 

If you haven't already joined the ChineseMedicine.net

list, I urge you to do so. Bob Felt has just posted

a long reply to many of the recent topics that

have been occupying our attention here at CHA.

 

I appreciate your input and look forward to

further dialog.

 

Best,

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Secondly, he stressed that Chinese is a most difficult language for westerners to learn; that mastery of even the terminology used in medical literature would take several years of full-time study. He also explained that ideograms often become corrupted by copyists who use incorrect ideograms based on homophones (like sounds).Tao's final advice to me was to forget about learning Chinese; that my time (and Qi) would be better spent learning the theory and practice of acupuncture & TCM from good translations and modern texts in English or French [i can read some French OK]. >>>>>Its nice to finally hear that some others feel the same as i do

Alon

[Guest guest]

Alon,

> >>>>>Its nice to finally hear that some others feel the same as i

do

 

 

Why?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

> >>>>>Its nice to finally hear that some others feel the same as i doWhy?>>>Why not

alon