Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Is there anyone teaching Chinese medical Chinese for PDA or CEU credits that can be used to recertify for their NCCAOM diplomate? Perhaps learning Chinese should be made a requirement to recertify? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Jim, One of the reasons why I take the position that I do, i.e., of stressing my concern for individual, grass roots awareness and initiative is that I believe that learning takes place best outside of the compulsory environment of requirements for certification. I think that all you could accomplish by calling for learning Chinese as a requirement for recertification is a loud backlash from currently certified individuals squawking about freedom and money and time. As we see, more or less day by day, there is a growing number of tools and resources available to those who recognize the usefulness of acquiring familiarity with the Chinese language. This is in now way limited to the field of Chinese medicine. My personal aim in all of these discussions is simply to help people come to the realization that: 1) this fundamental dimension has been largely overlooked and omitted from training in the West; and 2) there is something that can be done about it. I am all in favor of offering Chinese medical Chinese as continuing education. In fact, we're working on deveoping just such an offering as we speak. Ken , " James Ramholz <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > Is there anyone teaching Chinese medical Chinese for PDA or CEU > credits that can be used to recertify for their NCCAOM diplomate? > > Perhaps learning Chinese should be made a requirement to recertify? > > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> wrote: > . . . I believe that learning takes place best outside > of the compulsory environment of requirements > for certification. Doesn't making it a required course in school make it compulsory? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 , " James Ramholz < jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > Is there anyone teaching Chinese medical Chinese for PDA or CEU > credits that can be used to recertify for their NCCAOM diplomate? > > Perhaps learning Chinese should be made a requirement to recertify? instead of many other necessities. c'mon. that will never fly. besides, what good will 30 hours of chinese study every 2 years do? this has to be a serious undertaking done voluntarily and separately from formal training. there is no way the goal can be achieved within the master's program and even the DAOM will fall short under the best of conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 , " <@i...> " <@i...> wrote: > instead of many other necessities. c'mon. that will never fly. besides, what good will 30 hours of chinese study every 2 years do? this has to be a serious undertaking done voluntarily and separately from formal training. > there is no way the goal can be achieved within the master's program and even the DAOM will fall short under the best of conditions. : I believe you are correct, but . . . I am just trying to take their argument to what I think is its logical and necessary conclusion: if it should be required for graduation from school, there is no reason why it should not equally be required for recertification. The arguments for learning Chinese apply to practitioners equally as well as students. If learning Chinese is an absolute necessity to access material and communicate effectively, then let's require it of everyone. If it defines a more realistic level of competency, then let's require it of everyone. Who needs access more than those already practicing? Who needs the clarity of standardized language more than those who were not able to get it during school? Why treat one group differently as a special class when they are both doing the same job? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Jim, > > I am just trying to take their argument to what I think is its > logical and necessary conclusion... Is this because you believe that " their " argument is correct? Or are you relying on rhetorical conceit in lieu of substantive discussion here? Who, by the way, are " they " ? What do you make of my argument? My argument is simply that it's a good idea for people to know what the words they use mean and that the words we use in traditional Chinese medicine are first, foremost, and last Chinese words. If we could come to some common understanding on whether or not this argument is sensible, we could move on to a productive consideration of how the implications of this these facts can be dealt with. Do you imagine that you are serving some greater good by presuming to repackage and restate other people's arguments rather than simply expressing the contents of your own thoughts on the subject? You know, it's a complex and confused issue already without having to go through the contortions of having to figure out who really means what. When you say that language learning should be required for recertification is it because you actually mean that language learning should be required for recertification? Or do I understand you correctly that you are actually trying to demonstrate what a ludicrous idea it is to suggest that language learning be embraced by individuals at all? If you tell me which it is, I will be glad to pursue the discussion. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote: > My argument is simply that it's a good idea > for people to know what the words they use > mean and that the words we use in traditional > Chinese medicine are first, foremost, and last > Chinese words. Ken: No one doubts this. I own several hundred Chinese books on herbal and acupuncture formulas; and my practice is significantly better for reading them. The real discussion is about how practical it is to make it compulsory in school, especailly when clinical skills are still so deficient---the actual point of my hyperbole. On a more practical note, how long will it take for a student to learn and be competent with the 1027 characters and 2555 compound terms in Wiseman's Chinese Medical Chinese Grammar and Vocabulary (a book anyone who is interested in translation should own)? Since time is limited in the first three to four years, learning Chinese well enough to translate it competes with other, clinical studies. Personally, I would like to see that time spent on learning pulse diagnosis, which takes 3-5 years to become proficient in--- beyond the rudimentary Li Shi Zhen material. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 " dragon90405 " wrote: > > Jim, > > One of the reasons why I take the position that > I do, i.e., of stressing my concern for individual, > grass roots awareness and initiative is that I > believe that learning takes place best outside > of the compulsory environment of requirements > for certification. > > I think that all you could accomplish by > calling for learning Chinese as a requirement > for recertification is a loud backlash from > currently certified individuals squawking > about freedom and money and time. Language studies as a rule do require self-discipline or at least a desire to learn, rather than a requirement. When I was in 6th grade, the California school system required that we begin to study Spanish. In Nebraska's middle schools again, we had to take a foriegn language, this time for two years and so I repeated introductory Spanish. When I got to Kansas University, another one year of foreign language was required for liberal arts majors such as myself. This time, I just got pissed off with AGAIN having to take the introduction to Spanish class because I never learned it the first time in other schools. This time, I took a more active, if not aggresive approach to learning Spanish and extended that required year with one more for a total of two years in college. Soon after, I ended up working in Southern California restaurants where most of the kitchen staff spoke Spanish. There, I finally used and learned Spanish after two years of college, two years of middle school, and one year of elementary school. Since then, I've studied Chinese in school and Russian in the home. There is no doubt in my mind that language is one of those things that you absolutely must have self-motivation to learn. I agree with Jim that providing some extensive instruction in Chinese language for a CEU or PDA is a good idea, but I'm with you in that learning a language must include personal initiative. It simply must. And that is the main problem that I have with requiring Chinese language in the MTOM programs. Its a waste of time unless you have motivated students. Perhaps a doctoral program can arise that stresses Chinese language? I'd consider that. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 And that is the main problem that I have with requiring Chinese languagein the MTOM programs. Its a waste of time unless you have motivatedstudents. Perhaps a doctoral program can arise that stresses Chineselanguage? I'd consider that.-- >>>And to develop the motivation i think many such as i would need to be convinced to the time spent on Chinese is better spent than the same time studding OM in one's own langue. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> = wrote: > And that is the main problem that I have with requiring Chinese language > in the MTOM programs. Its a waste of time unless you have motivated > students. Perhaps a doctoral program can arise that stresses Chinese > language? I'd consider that. > > -- > >>>And to develop the motivation i think many such as i would need to be = convinced to the time spent on Chinese is better spent than the same time st= udding OM in one's own langue. > Alon Alon, we know you think it is pointless.. But I and others see more value i= n the Chinese material. Fine neither can win... But let me ask you this? Do = you think you can be proficient in ONE testing from 2 semesters of school? O= R what about proficient in musculoskeletal tx's from 1 semester in school? = What about an expert in nutrition from 1 semester? OR a Historian of Chinese= Medicine from 1 semester of History class? OR an expert in Taiji in 10 cla= sses? I could go one… All these classes are mandatory for a CM degree (PCOM)= .. I personally would see more value in the language than any of the above. = (that is my opinion) Another might say that the ONE class is of course most = important. And Why? probably because that individual spent hours and hours s= tudying the ONE beyond what was INTRODUCED in school… and now uses it at an = actual useful level… Now the point! Let everyone excel in what they want, bu= t without the initial introduction, how is one to proceed? Think about tryin= g to learn ONE from a BOOK, without a teacher, THAT is hard, very hard! Lang= uage being somewhat hard, needs THIS kick start and a teacher… this IS NOT A= BOUT YOU, ME, TODD, Z'ev OR anyone else- IT is about the profession as a who= le… Giving people an opportunity to learn it if they want. But they must ha= ve that introduction (2 mandatory classes). And I believe the more people t= hat get exposed to it, the more people will actually take the ball and run w= ith it on their own… Only give you, alon, better translations to contemplate= .... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Jim, > > My argument is simply that it's a good idea > > for people to know what the words they use > > mean and that the words we use in traditional > > Chinese medicine are first, foremost, and last > > Chinese words. > > > Ken: > > No one doubts this. OK. So then let's move on to the next proposition in my argument. If it foregoing is true, I believe that as a group of individuals we should take responsibility for developing and providing methods by which students and practitioners can gain familiarity with the meanings of the Chinese words so that they can know what the basic terms of the subject mean and how to use them according to the dictates of the language in which they were created. Does no one doubt this? Please resist the temptation to jump to the problems of implementation of this responsibility. That comes later in my argument...much later. I am arguing, as I have long stated, for individual responsibility on this topic. All I want to ask you or anyone else is does this matter to you, personally? Are you responsible for this? Or is my logic flawed? you have frequently criticized " those " who argue for the importance of language learning by pointing out that the arguments are illogical. So where is the illogic? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 Now the point! Let everyone excel in what they want, bu= t without the initial introduction, how is one to proceed? >>>I have no problem with getting introduced to all including Chinese. It the amount and efficacy Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 But let me ask you this? Do = you think you can be proficient in ONE testing from 2 semesters of school? O= R what about proficient in musculoskeletal tx's from 1 semester in school? = What about an expert in nutrition from 1 semester? OR a Historian of Chinese= Medicine from 1 semester of History class? OR an expert in Taiji in 10 cla= sses? I could go one… All these classes are mandatory for a CM degree (PCOM)= >>>There is no way you will be proficient in anything comming out of school. I have no argument with this. I also do not see any problem with studding Chinese if that is what one wants. And I am sure you find value in it. No problem with me. I am not sure why you, and others, have such a hard time with people that have questions and do not buy some of the arguments in favor of studding Chinese. It not like I have not spent 20 years in this profession, studding in US, China and Japan. Have seen many thousands of patients. Spent time with at least 6 world known OM authorities, much more than any on the list. I am certainly entitled to my conclusions, as you are. I have never said Chinese should not be taught at school or anywhere else. I have never said anybody else should not spend the time studding Chinese. I have never said you cannot get more information if you can read Chinese. What I have done is question, from my experience over 20 years, the cost benefit of time spent. Forgiver me if I continue not except many of the arguments face value as I have been around practitioner that are Chinese or can read Chinese for a while now. When I came out of China I had absolutely no problem going through an herb text and reading it quite quickly. Written Chinese was actually not that difficult for me. But I for one decided that my time was better served elsewhere. Your is different, OK with me. Just make sure to share you translations as I am sure they are valuable. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 (Alon) I have never said Chinese should not be taught at school or anywhere else. I have never said anybody else should not spend the time studding Chinese. (JAson) Well if this is so, it has been unclear to me, For example you have said in the near past " My opinions are well known. I do think students have a limited amount of time and priorities must be made. I think that Chinese study is available via major universities, which are better equipped for this study, and if one is interested that is were it should be done. " - This clearly says (to me) that chinese languange and specifically Medical Chinese should not be offered in TCM schools, You say there are more important classes! I AM firmly arguing for it's inclusion in TCM schools (Master's LEvel) - I am not arguing for profiecicy, but mere exposure, like all these other classes (like ONE, couseling, history etc)... By scanning through past messages it is clear that you and others think there is little importance in putting in the schools. IF you & others have changed, then let us move to the next step. ANd to answer the above, I do not think major universites are better equiped. Again I answer, we argue about terminlogy- if 2 basic intro course are in the master level program then we can kill 2 birds with one stone! - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 , " Alon Marcus " It the amount and efficacy (jason) what do you mean by this? -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 Well if this is so, it has been unclear to me, For example you have said in the near past "My opinions are well known. I do think students have a limited amount of time and priorities must be made. I think that Chinese study is available via major universities, which are better equipped for this study, and if one is interested that is were it should be done." >>>I still stand by this and again say that I am not against anybody studding what ever they want. But still think that the priorities are better served otherwise. That is not saying that one should not have any medical Chinese at all. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.