Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Al, Nice work. Does the student get the results upon submiting the script? Fernando > I've also moved the testing to the internet to give me more time in > class for interaction and lecture. Here's an example of a current test. > Not only does this test assess the student's ability to understand the > premise of the course, but it also teaches them at the same time as it > is an open book test. > http://gancao.net/exam/cha.htm > > Most teachers assume that our job is to teach , then assess. I like to > teach while I'm assessing. > > -al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Nope, but the answers get sent to me via email. After that point, I'll usually set up a KEY somewhere for people to see the answers. I also leave room for people to comment on questions that were worded poorly, such as the temperature question regarding Shi Gao which was ambiguously asking for the temperature of the herb or the pathology... -al. " fernando b. " wrote: > > Al, > > Nice work. > > Does the student get the results upon submiting the script? > > Fernando > > > I've also moved the testing to the internet to give me more time in > > class for interaction and lecture. Here's an example of a current > test. > > Not only does this test assess the student's ability to understand > the > > premise of the course, but it also teaches them at the same time as > it > > is an open book test. > > http://gancao.net/exam/cha.htm > > > > Most teachers assume that our job is to teach , then assess. I > like to > > teach while I'm assessing. > > > > -al. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Al, I also liked your test. I’m impressed. , > I've also moved the testing to the internet to give me more time in > class for interaction and lecture. Here's an example of a current test. > Not only does this test assess the student's ability to understand the > premise of the course, but it also teaches them at the same time as it > is an open book test. > http://gancao.net/exam/cha.htm > > Most teachers assume that our job is to teach , then assess. I like to > teach while I'm assessing. > > -al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 This topic has interested me for many years. Just as all traditional medicines (such as Ayurveda, Tibetan, and Greco-Arabic medicine) had theories of humoral balancing and the use of combined polypharmacy prescriptions, they also had materia medicas with similar organization to the Chinese. Dioscorides, the famous Roman physician and writer of Da Materia Medica used a scheme of flavors, qualities and temperatures, which were passed on to Galen. Galen developed a scale of intensities, for temperature 1 to 5 degrees of heat or cold, 1 to 5 degrees of dry or damp. Each medicine had an affinity to a particular organ of the body, and was combined with other medicines to neutralize exccesses of heat or cold, damp or dry, sweet or bitter. The Tibetan and Ayurvedic physicians, however, developed another factor that I find very interesting. They have a doctrine of pre and post-digestive flavors, in other words, the quality of the medicine as is and after being consumed and metabolized. It would seem to me that in Chinese medicine, the temperature and flavor tend to be considered after ingestion, not as the character of the plant itself? Food for thought. Thoughts anyone? On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 11:45 AM, wrote: > I am not sure we can extend this method of organizing herbs to the > materia medica of other cultures. that does not diminish the > importance of this method of organization for the practice of TCM. I > have certainly come to see that more and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 , " " < zrosenbe@s...> wrote: They have a doctrine of pre and > post-digestive flavors, in other words, the quality of the medicine as > is and after being consumed and metabolized. It would seem to me that > in Chinese medicine, the temperature and flavor tend to be considered > after ingestion, not as the character of the plant itself? Perhaps this already part of chinese medicine and may explain why the flavors of herbs are often not their actual tastes. because they are classified by a post digestive effect. this squares nicely with modern phytochemistry, where herb action is often dependent on metabolism of the herbs by the body first. recently,for example, evidence has mounted that pretty much all in vitro flavonoid research is totally bogus, because most flavonoids do not act in the body at the concentrations at which they are ingested. so many herbs that supposedly act by virtue of their flavonoid content DO NOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: It would seem to me that in Chinese medicine, the temperature and flavor tend to be considered after ingestion, not as the character of the plant itself? Z'ev: Isn't that the way Shen Nong originally did it---by ingestion and tracing the course of the plant's effects through his body? I think someone said earlier that there is a Chinese bureaucracy that now fills that role and decides the tastes and meridian induction. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 I agree, the flavor issue can be opaque. But, to refer to Simon Mills again, maybe we can look at functions/ flavors of some western herbs. For example: Simon said that the sour flavor is the flavor of tannins- which as we've previously discussed have an astringent , binding nature. So off the top of my head I can think of wu wei zi, bai shao, suan zao ren, wu mei. But there are many astringent/ absorbent herbs that are not sour- hai piao xiao, fu xiao mai, shan yao, e jiao. There are other filters for thinking about this function. Last year I mentioned white, absorbent herbs- that have a sponge-like quality: mu li, hai piao xiao, shan yao, lian zi, qian shi. So it is definitely NOT consistent. But if you were in nature, tasting herbs- w/o any knowledge of the plant- the taste alone would tell you a story: sweet herbs tonify because the taste of food- of grains and meat is sweet. Bitters disperse XS in the stomach because the stimulate gastric secretions of all kinds- hence aperitifs. Spicy flavors make you sweat, and so on I don't know what my point here is. I'm exploring a thought that I don't have time to complete at this moment. My affinity for flavors is probably rooted in that I was a chef. It's a filter I understand. I'm a ( and I love to play w/ my containers of herbs just as much as I did when I was a kid in my mothers health food store.) I'll get back to this, when have a few minutes Cara But just because these rules seem to > apply so well to our materia medica does not mean they are universally > valid. > > I am not sure we can extend this method of organizing herbs to the materia > medica of other cultures. that does not diminish the importance of this > method of organization for the practice of TCM. I have certainly come to > see that more and more. There just isn't necessarily any " truth " to these > things. I can observe that an herb reliably addresses certain symptom > sign complexes and can thus assign it a TCM function for solely that > reason. To go further and say that the reason the herb does what it does > is because it is spicy and enters the liver channel is useful only to the > extent that this alters my clinical applications of the herb. The > function of the herb tells me what organs are affected and whether the > herb astringes or tonifies or disperses or cools or warms or upbears or > downbears. It may be helpful for me to remember which herbs are spicy so > I may more easily select dispersing herbs when need be. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > minds " -- Albert Einstein > -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 To further confirm Todd's stance on CHinese backwards herbal attributes. Here is a perfect example. When jaundice was thought to come from the spleen, herbs to treat it obviously entered the spleen channel, later with modern understanding these herbs have lost the Sp, and gained the LV/GB. - , <@i...> wrote: > , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> > wrote: > As you know, I am nearly obsessed w/ the > > functions of the flavors: there I said it; the flavor is the function > > To play devil's advocate, what if the flavors and other attributes of > herbs are somewhat arbitrary, varying as they do between texts and in > different eras. It is even acknowledged in modern materia medicas that > many herbs were assigned FLAVORS based on their already known FUNCTIONS > (xu and wang, pg. 2; also see Cinnabar Creek Notes from 5/02 by Andy Ellis, > chai hu monograph). Many thus do not actually have the taste assigned > to them (according to wang and xu, among others). We also need to > consider that one of the reasons the chinese do have so many spicy herbs > that disperse and sweet herbs that tonify is because that is what they > were looking for. Just like today's scientists, they used theory to > narrow their search parameters. But just because these rules seem to > apply so well to our materia medica does not mean they are universally > valid. > > I am not sure we can extend this method of organizing herbs to the materia > medica of other cultures. that does not diminish the importance of this > method of organization for the practice of TCM. I have certainly come to > see that more and more. There just isn't necessarily any " truth " to these > things. I can observe that an herb reliably addresses certain symptom > sign complexes and can thus assign it a TCM function for solely that > reason. To go further and say that the reason the herb does what it does > is because it is spicy and enters the liver channel is useful only to the > extent that this alters my clinical applications of the herb. The > function of the herb tells me what organs are affected and whether the > herb astringes or tonifies or disperses or cools or warms or upbears or > downbears. It may be helpful for me to remember which herbs are spicy so > I may more easily select dispersing herbs when need be. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 , " < @h...> " <@h...> wrote: > To further confirm Todd's stance on CHinese backwards herbal attributes. Here is a perfect example. Or as Ellis reports, chai hu was not attributed a spicy flavor originally. It was only AFTER the qualities of tastes were REDEFINED. And this was a good 1000 years about the shen nong ben cao was written. In olden days, bitter was dispersing,so it was not necessary to include spicy. Later, spicy became the main dispersing flavor (I actually suspect ayurvedic influence from buddhist monks at this time). chai hu stayed the same, buts its theroretical attributes changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 But bitters are dispersing internally. And drying ( which chai is ) Cara " < " < Thu, 06 Feb 2003 18:52:39 -0000 Re: herbly , " < @h...> " <@h...> wrote: > To further confirm Todd's stance on CHinese backwards herbal attributes. Here is a perfect example. Or as Ellis reports, chai hu was not attributed a spicy flavor originally. It was only AFTER the qualities of tastes were REDEFINED. And this was a good 1000 years about the shen nong ben cao was written. In olden days, bitter was dispersing,so it was not necessary to include spicy. Later, spicy became the main dispersing flavor (I actually suspect ayurvedic influence from buddhist monks at this time). chai hu stayed the same, buts its theroretical attributes changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > But bitters are dispersing internally. And drying ( which chai is ) > CarCara that is my point. Bitter used to be enough to explain chai hu's dispersing effect, but in later history, it was considered inaccurate to label an herb that disperses the exterior as being merely bitter. I doubt chai hu of the han era tasted different in the mouth than it did in the qing. The attributes were arbitrarily chaged to accommodate changes in theory. I really believe that it is the general opinion of historians of chinese medicine that the wei (taste or sapor) of herbs has little to do with the herbs actual taste in the mouth in many cases. I think this is underscored in many different texts written by chinese authors or rigorously translated where there is apparent consensus on this matter. The only sources I know of that insist on the literal nature of taste and action are derivative materials written by westerners with little or no access to chinese source material and often these are books about food, not herbs (such as Annemarie Colbin's work). This is another important reason that we need to rely primarily on such source material for our foundations of study. I make a point of telling my students to NOT overstate this relationship as I believe it often leads them down erroneous trains of thought. Again, this does not negate the value of this method of organization or teaching when it comes to chinese materia medica. But I feel uncomfortable stating this is a law of nature when the chinese themselves do not view their own concept in this literal fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 Well, I see your point and I agree I agree with you. But- when I said that flavor= function, I wasn’t only referring to ascriptions in various materia medicas. The real flavor has a function. It has a movement. It has a direction. And it nearly has a texture. Can you think of a bitter that is not cooling, drying? Salty as sinking, moistening? But as I’m writing this, I am thinking about chai hu. If we agree that the herb is bitter and acrid, then another way to phrase that might be : cooling and relaxing- which bupleurem is. So the fact that the herb description changes to suit the mood of the moment is more like reading code: as insight grows or perspective changes through history, flavors ( and channel ascriptions) are altered. Cara I really believe that it is the general opinion of historians of chinese medicine that the wei (taste or sapor) of herbs has little to do with the herbs actual taste in the mouth in many cases. I think this is underscored in many different texts written by chinese authors or rigorously translated where there is apparent consensus on this matter. The only sources I know of that insist on the literal nature of taste and action are derivative materials written by westerners with little or no access to chinese source material and often these are books about food, not herbs (such as Annemarie Colbin's work). This is another important reason that we need to rely primarily on such source material for our foundations of study. I make a point of telling my students to NOT overstate this relationship as I believe it often leads them down erroneous trains of thought. Again, this does not negate the value of this method of organization or teaching when it comes to chinese materia medica. But I feel uncomfortable stating this is a law of nature when the chinese themselves do not view their own concept in this literal fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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