herbly (what does this mean?)

[Guest guest]

I'd be interested in knowing who developed this approach, was is

someone from the Worsley school? Several authors use five phase theory

in determining diagnostics and their resulting prescriptions, such as

Li Dong-yuan. However, I've never seen prescriptions classified by

phase in any well-known Chinese text that I am aware of, historically

or in modern times. If anyone knows of such a text, please let me know,

I'd love to have it. If it is a modern innovation, students have a

right to know.

 

 

On Sunday, February 2, 2003, at 01:10 PM, ajeffres wrote:

 

> I think that it was also done at Tai in Maryland - until recently, the

> two programs had the same Dean. Because it is a Five Element school

> teaching herbs, herbs are taught in an 8P format, but with a focus on

> constitutional application. Formulas and herbs are taught by element

> at first. So they start with Earth, and what patterns earth tends to

> produce. ie- Sp qi xu, Sp yang xu, Damp, Food Stagnation... Formulas

> are presented for each formula. ie- the first formulas is Si Jun Zi

> Tang. Each herb is presented individually - this is what Ren Shen

> does, this is what Bai Zhu does,... then the formula is covered as a

> group - this is how they work together.

[Guest guest]

Frances is right about it being originally developed by Ted Kaptchuk. Thea Elijah, who heads the AFEA program, studied with Ted and taught after him at TAI. I don't think that it is a drastically different style of herbalism - classical formulas are used that match the current 8P presentation. The most important difference (besides present information on the physical _and_ psychospiritual aspects of the 8P's / Zang-Fu) is that the classes are presented in a way that is actually more interesting to learn and more integrated between singles and formulas. After sitting in a materia medica class, and a different formulations class, listening to someone lecture like the equivalent of reading Bensky (which are great texts - but you can _read_ them), for 1 1/2 years, this class is a breath of fresh air. You ultimately learn the same information. I think that it is a better model for learning Chinese herbs than what is used in our AOM schools at this point.

-Anne

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> I'd be interested in knowing who developed this approach, was is

> someone from the Worsley school? Several authors use five phase

theory in determining diagnostics and their resulting prescriptions,

such as Li Dong-yuan. However, I've never seen prescriptions

classified by phase in any well-known Chinese text that I am aware

of, historically or in modern times. If anyone knows of such a text,

please let me know, I'd love to have it. If it is a modern

innovation, students have a right to know. >>>

 

 

Z'ev:

 

According to Catherine Despeux, Chen Yan did this in his " Sanyin

fang " ---11th or 12 century. She quotes a passage where Lingzhu tang

(Decoction of Magnolia and Atractylodes) is used to treat symptoms

due to wind affecting spleen and stomach in ren years (when wood is

excessive). This and other formulas were said to be both

prophylactic and therapeutic.

 

Another text in 1212, the Taiyi ju zhuke chengwen ge (Composition

Models for the Various Departments of the Imperial Bureau of

Medicine), recommends using in jia/zi years Fuzi tang (Aconite

Decoctions); and in geng/wu years, Huopu tang (Magnolia decoctions).

 

The general rules for this type of herbal prescribing are in Suwen

chapter 69. Other than myself, I haven't heard from anyone who is

interested in applying them. People seem to only think about the SHL.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz <

jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote:

 

>

> The general rules for this type of herbal prescribing are in Suwen

> chapter 69. Other than myself, I haven't heard from anyone who is

> interested in applying them.

 

perhaps they were not found to be clinically useful ideas.

 

[Guest guest]

In , " Jim Ramholz wrote:

> > The general rules for this type of herbal prescribing are in

Suwen chapter 69. Other than myself, I haven't heard from anyone who

is interested in applying them.

>

: perhaps they were not found to be clinically useful ideas.>>>

 

:

 

I think they are less in use for several different reasons. Most TCM

practitioners are herbalists who will gravitate to theories like the

SHL and ignore theories which are not overtly involved with herbs;

and relatively little or no class time is given to 5-Elements. For

example, the thread on last winter's flu season attempted to force

the s/s to fit the SHL pattern; no one even considered the

possibility of the Suwen patterns.

 

Secondly, TCM offers a reductionist picture of disease; for example,

acne, ALS, cervical spondylosis, and Hashimoto's thyroiditis can all

be thought of, reduced to, and treated as blood stasis patterns.

Reducing complex diseases to one or several simple zang/fu patterns

is much easier and gives the illusion of control but without really

understanding what the body is actually doing when it develops a

disorder or heals itself. The sense of comfort from the rationale

that 'many disorders have one cure, and there are many cures for one

disease' can also distracts us from looking further into our own

theories and history. We shouldn't always judge the effectiveness of

a theory on its current popularity.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

The chapters you are referring to, Jim, are based on the

chronobiological theories such as five movements and six qi,

specifically in this chapter calendrical calculations using the five

phases to predict specifically epidemic and disease patterns. These

methods are hardly easy to understand, and there is some controversy as

to accuracy after so many centuries as to the particular method. I

would love to see further development and studies done on this area.

Donn Hayes and myself for some time compared notes on weather changes,

host and guest qi of a particular year as influencing epidemics of

influenza while I was in Colorado many years ago. I am still always

watching the influence of weather changes (as subtle as they may be in

southern California).

 

I don't think these theories should be discounted. I think they should

be developed and studied. But this will take much work. Chronobiology

is being studied by biomedicine as well, and I think this will be an

important part of medicine in the near future.

 

Anyone who is interested in this topic should read " Astronomy and

Mathematics in Ancient China: the Zhou bi suan jing " by Christopher

Cullen, Cambridge University Press. It details the ancient calendrical

system, and also discusses some of the problems with it. Also, the new

Unschuld " Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen " will have a large appendix on the

subject.

 

 

On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 12:49 AM, James Ramholz

<jramholz wrote:

>

>

> I think they are less in use for several different reasons. Most TCM

> practitioners are herbalists who will gravitate to theories like the

> SHL and ignore theories which are not overtly involved with herbs;

> and relatively little or no class time is given to 5-Elements. For

> example, the thread on last winter's flu season attempted to force

> the s/s to fit the SHL pattern; no one even considered the

> possibility of the Suwen patterns.

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> The chapters you are referring to, Jim, are based on the

> chronobiological theories such as five movements and six qi,

> specifically in this chapter calendrical calculations using the

five phases to predict specifically epidemic and disease patterns.

These methods are hardly easy to understand, and there is some

controversy as to accuracy after so many centuries as to the

particular method. I would love to see further development and

studies done on this area.

> Donn Hayes and myself for some time compared notes on weather

changes, host and guest qi of a particular year as influencing

epidemics of influenza while I was in Colorado many years ago. I am

still always watching the influence of weather changes (as subtle as

they may be in southern California).

 

 

Z'ev:

 

They can easily be observed and confirmed if you look at things from

the 5-Phases perspective regularly---but very few do (and it's not

the Worsely material). What makes the Suwen cycles more difficult to

observe is that they take place over the course of the entire year;

they aren't immediate reactions to conditions. Every several years,

I change my cold/flu formula to conform with these changes.

 

For example, the stem and branch for 2002 were Yang Water and Horse

(Shaoyin). So there is conflict between water and fire phases. The

primary energy of the year is Fire (secondary is Yangming dryness)

which attacks metal (lungs) during the first half of the year. It

dries up yin fluids and makes the body produce more mucus to

balance. The water excessiveness of the stem adds its own kind of

dampness. That's why we alternately see several mixed types of

coughing (productive alternately dry, raspy) in the same person.

During late August 2002, these types of coughs were already becoming

more common and apparent.

 

Then, the autumnal changes help move the ambient energy of the body

deeper---the pulses are no longer floating due to summer heat. So

the vitality going deeper and the accumulated dampness and phlegm in

the lungs act like two weather fronts confronting each other. The

last part of the year is dominated by the colder energy of the 5-

Phase Revenge cycle, helping to make the cold/flu syndromes a deeper

problem from the chest congestion.

 

The pulses are deeper---Zang depth, not floating---and show dampness

and phlegm in the spleen and lung. Problems do not start at Taiyang

but deeper in the chest and throat. The phlegm can generate heat on

its own, or can be a good breeding ground for viruses which are

concentrate and exchanged by children going back to school, etc.

 

So all this can happen without necessarily starting or going through

the Taiyang level as discussed in the SHL. I suspect the SHL would

be more useful if the patient is well balanced before the initial

cold invasion. If the Suwen pattern already dominates the patient

before the end of the year, we can better describe it in terms of 5-

Phases. The Suwen patterns take the year to develop; while SHL

patterns discuss acute symptomology and involve a briefer period

(usually days to weeks). But since TCM practitioners are primarily

herbalists, there is more interest and discussion of the SHL

approach.

 

The 60-year Calendar cycle sets up what in Complexity Theory would

call the " initial conditions. " Then you compare your patient's

balance against this general pattern (Host and Guest).

Unfortunately, no one theory can always dominate a situation or

patient because there are so many variables---different patient

balance, local environment, different pathologies, etc.

 

The changes in the presentation of colds and flu over the last

decade have been interesting and seem to follow the Suwen pattern.

In the early 1990's, we had obvious superficial Taiyang syndromes.

Each year, it seemed to start at a deeper level or had shorter and

shorter periods of Taiyang. For the last few years, there has been

no substantial Taiyang syndrome; and now, this year, it seems to be

moving up the levels again.

 

The SHL theory seems to apply better when the person is well

balanced when the initial injury happens. The Suwen cycle locates

them on a rollercoaster over the course of the year.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Maybe Chinese Lunar calendar can give us some information about the

seasonal change which related to SuWen cycle.

Do you ever treat patients according to the seasonal change?

I know that Chinese cooking/diet follow the change of the season.

Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc

Johns Hopkins Community Physicians

 

>>> jramholz 02/03/03 01:13PM >>>

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> The chapters you are referring to, Jim, are based on the

> chronobiological theories such as five movements and six qi,

> specifically in this chapter calendrical calculations using the

five phases to predict specifically epidemic and disease patterns.

These methods are hardly easy to understand, and there is some

controversy as to accuracy after so many centuries as to the

particular method. I would love to see further development and

studies done on this area.

> Donn Hayes and myself for some time compared notes on weather

changes, host and guest qi of a particular year as influencing

epidemics of influenza while I was in Colorado many years ago. I am

still always watching the influence of weather changes (as subtle as

they may be in southern California).

 

 

Z'ev:

 

They can easily be observed and confirmed if you look at things from

the 5-Phases perspective regularly---but very few do (and it's not

the Worsely material). What makes the Suwen cycles more difficult to

observe is that they take place over the course of the entire year;

they aren't immediate reactions to conditions. Every several years,

I change my cold/flu formula to conform with these changes.

 

For example, the stem and branch for 2002 were Yang Water and Horse

(Shaoyin). So there is conflict between water and fire phases. The

primary energy of the year is Fire (secondary is Yangming dryness)

which attacks metal (lungs) during the first half of the year. It

dries up yin fluids and makes the body produce more mucus to

balance. The water excessiveness of the stem adds its own kind of

dampness. That's why we alternately see several mixed types of

coughing (productive alternately dry, raspy) in the same person.

During late August 2002, these types of coughs were already becoming

more common and apparent.

 

Then, the autumnal changes help move the ambient energy of the body

deeper---the pulses are no longer floating due to summer heat. So

the vitality going deeper and the accumulated dampness and phlegm in

the lungs act like two weather fronts confronting each other. The

last part of the year is dominated by the colder energy of the 5-

Phase Revenge cycle, helping to make the cold/flu syndromes a deeper

problem from the chest congestion.

 

The pulses are deeper---Zang depth, not floating---and show dampness

and phlegm in the spleen and lung. Problems do not start at Taiyang

but deeper in the chest and throat. The phlegm can generate heat on

its own, or can be a good breeding ground for viruses which are

concentrate and exchanged by children going back to school, etc.

 

So all this can happen without necessarily starting or going through

the Taiyang level as discussed in the SHL. I suspect the SHL would

be more useful if the patient is well balanced before the initial

cold invasion. If the Suwen pattern already dominates the patient

before the end of the year, we can better describe it in terms of 5-

Phases. The Suwen patterns take the year to develop; while SHL

patterns discuss acute symptomology and involve a briefer period

(usually days to weeks). But since TCM practitioners are primarily

herbalists, there is more interest and discussion of the SHL

approach.

 

The 60-year Calendar cycle sets up what in Complexity Theory would

call the " initial conditions. " Then you compare your patient's

balance against this general pattern (Host and Guest).

Unfortunately, no one theory can always dominate a situation or

patient because there are so many variables---different patient

balance, local environment, different pathologies, etc.

 

The changes in the presentation of colds and flu over the last

decade have been interesting and seem to follow the Suwen pattern.

In the early 1990's, we had obvious superficial Taiyang syndromes.

Each year, it seemed to start at a deeper level or had shorter and

shorter periods of Taiyang. For the last few years, there has been

no substantial Taiyang syndrome; and now, this year, it seems to be

moving up the levels again.

 

The SHL theory seems to apply better when the person is well

balanced when the initial injury happens. The Suwen cycle locates

them on a rollercoaster over the course of the year.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Ta-Ya Lee <tlee19@j...>

wrote:

> Maybe Chinese Lunar calendar can give us some information about the

> seasonal change which related to SuWen cycle.

> Do you ever treat patients according to the seasonal change?

> I know that Chinese cooking/diet follow the change of the season.

> Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc

> Johns Hopkins Community Physicians

 

 

Yes. You can sometimes see an important correlation in the pulses or

symptoms of a group of patients that relate to a seasonal and even a

9 Flying Star pattern. If so, you need to keep in mind the

Host/Guest rules. But, again, it's erroneous to attribute an

individual's changes only to the calendar when so many variables may

be affecting them. Usually you will see a group of patients with

similar changes.

 

 

Jim Ramholz