Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Could someone explain to me the disadvantage of cooking herbs for 1 hour (1 cook) vs. 2 cooks (1st 30 min - strain) then a 2nd 30 min. strain and mix with the first. Are there certain constituatients that start to evaporate after 30 minutes or so?? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 , " < @h...> " <@h...> wrote: > Could someone explain to me the disadvantage of cooking herbs for 1 hour (1 cook) vs. 2 cooks (1st 30 min - strain) then a 2nd 30 min. strain and mix with the first. Are there certain constituatients that start to evaporate after 30 minutes or so?? I believe certain constituents are damaged by prolonged contact with heat and others needs prolonged contact with water and heat to be extracted in any decent amounts. However, I was taught that room temp soaking made the difficult constituents extract easier without requiring prolonged heat, thus only a single cook was necessary. If you can actually soak for 4-12 hours, it is obvious that quite a bit leeches out by osmosis by the change in taste, odor and color of the solution. I actually think crockpot cooking makes a lot of sense. It is similar to the low temp closed extraction used by companies that make liquid extracts in some ways. the low temp prevents loss of any actives, even with prolonged cooking, while prolonged immersion in solution guarantees complete extraction of actives over time. Patients should be aware that chinese herbs may pemanently stain and stink up the ceramic inserts to many crockpots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 I use crock pot cooking all the time with great success. I think it yields a superior product because the steam seal keeps the volatile oils in. plus compliance is way high- patients only have to cook it once a week w/a minimum of fuss. Be mindful to have people add extra water for highly absorbent herbs like Hong hua. Hint from Heloise: You can easily get rid the smell by soaking the crock pot in a baking soda solution afterwards. Cara , " < @h...> " <@h...> wrote: > Could someone explain to me the disadvantage of cooking herbs for 1 hour (1 cook) vs. 2 cooks (1st 30 min - strain) then a 2nd 30 min. strain and mix with the first. Are there certain constituatients that start to evaporate after 30 minutes or so?? I believe certain constituents are damaged by prolonged contact with heat and others needs prolonged contact with water and heat to be extracted in any decent amounts. However, I was taught that room temp soaking made the difficult constituents extract easier without requiring prolonged heat, thus only a single cook was necessary. If you can actually soak for 4-12 hours, it is obvious that quite a bit leeches out by osmosis by the change in taste, odor and color of the solution. I actually think crockpot cooking makes a lot of sense. It is similar to the low temp closed extraction used by companies that make liquid extracts in some ways. the low temp prevents loss of any actives, even with prolonged cooking, while prolonged immersion in solution guarantees complete extraction of actives over time. Patients should be aware that chinese herbs may pemanently stain and stink up the ceramic inserts to many crockpots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 wrote : > Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:17:33 -0500 > Cara Frank <herbbabe > Re: Re: Cooking Methods > > I use crock pot cooking all the time with great success. I think it yields > a superior product because the steam seal keeps the volatile oils in. plus > compliance is way high- patients only have to cook it once a week w/a > minimum of fuss. Be mindful to have people add extra water for highly > absorbent herbs like Hong hua. Hint from Heloise: You can easily get rid > the smell by soaking the crock pot in a baking soda solution afterwards. I have experimented with cooking herbs in the crock pot and have some questions. How does this cooking method affect the dosage of the herbs? (It seems like the resulting decoction is _very_ strong.) Would the typical daily dosage for be usable for a week? Days? How much (in liquid ounces) of the much stronger decoction would be recommended to take? (vs. the usual one cup 3 times a day dosage) How long a cook time are other people using to cook herbs with this method? (my crockpot has both a low and a high setting and I have only ever used low - here in CO it takes 2 - 3 hours for it to even begin to simmer on that setting). Thanks. Judy Saxe almost-done-student CSTCM Denver, CO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 I’m attaching a copy of my crock pot instructions. Bear in mind that these are old: the revised version is in my office computer, but you’ll get the idea. I make large bags of herbs that last a week- they weigh a total of 8-16 oz. Occasionally even bigger. ( I know- a big range. But it depends on what I’m trying to accomplish. An oz a day is the general rule of thumb. But feel free to break that rule, as long as you know why you are breaking it). the herbs are strong- but not any stronger than decocted herbs: I have people take half cup 2x day, unless I am dealing an acute URI, in which case, half cup every 4 hours. I’m straight up w/ my patients: drink these herbs- they taste bad, do it anyway, stop kvetching, bitter is good for you. ( a little levity goes far here). the one cup. TID is not usual to me; never heard of dosing like that. If that’s how you want to do it, then you will not be able to use weekly bags: there will not be enough room in the pot. I’d recommend having them cook it low, overnight, every night to achieve that type of dilution. I think my way is better. A whole cup tastes as funky as half a cup and it’s over faster. You’d have to play w/ the proportions of herbs to water to figure out the approximate dosage. The instructions say to start w/ 10 C water. This may not be enough. Use enough water to just cover the surface of the herbs. The idea is to yield 6-7 cups to last the week. The timing is not exact: just tell them that after it comes to a simmer, let it go another 45-60 minutes. If they do it in the morning- put it on low and strain it when they return. Hi is better than low. Low takes forever to simmer. NO PEEKING! the crock pot loses heat quickly. I have a new one w/ a timer built right in, so I can program it for as many hours as I like. regarding da huang: since we all like it so well: if you add it at the beginning it will still act as a laxative, but not as effectively as if you had added it later. On the other hand, it is not cooked in such a way as to be used as a blood moving agent. It ends up kind of in the middle. So unless that is your intention, I’d skip da huang when using a crock pot. I add all other herbs at the same time w/ great results. The fragrance stays in in and is still effective for bo he, mu xiang, etc. If I’m using shells or minerals, I have people cook it an hour longer. that's about all I can think of at the moment. Try it- it’s a great innovation. Easy easy easy. Cara I have experimented with cooking herbs in the crock pot and have some questions. How does this cooking method affect the dosage of the herbs? (It seems like the resulting decoction is _very_ strong.) Would the typical daily dosage for be usable for a week? Days? How much (in liquid ounces) of the much stronger decoction would be recommended to take? (vs. the usual one cup 3 times a day dosage) How long a cook time are other people using to cook herbs with this method? (my crockpot has both a low and a high setting and I have only ever used low - here in CO it takes 2 - 3 hours for it to even begin to simmer on that setting). Thanks. Judy Saxe almost-done-student CSTCM Denver, CO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: An oz a day is the general rule of thumb. But feel > free to break that rule, as long as you know why you are breaking it). > the herbs are strong- but not any stronger than decocted herbs: I just need to point out for those who use doses more in line with modern chinese practice and most classical texts that 2 ounces or greater than 50 grams per day is typical. Up to 4 ounces or more is actually quite common. One ounce or 28 grams per day is considered quite low, more in line with kanpo. Cara says the corcked herbs are no stronger than decotion, but this does not make sense to me. they would have no loses due to cooking, thus must be stronger. If they are twice as strong, then one can get away with lower doses. If you find yourself to be successful using very low doses, I have a question. Keeping in mind that kanpo docs get good results with such low doses, I am curious if this method yields short term symptom relief. I find decoctions at this dose to be quite weak at short term relief. My longterm goal is not merely symptom relief, but in my experience most patients will not take decotions very long on the promise of better health down the road. Speaking of kanpo, it occurs to me that kanpo docs use forms of herbs (granules) made in giant crockpots essentially. Also kanpo is prescribed by MD's, not L.Ac. It is my understanding that one will receive a kanpo rx for health and a drug for symptoms much of the time. we do not have this option and should be careful to adopt a form of practice used by MD's will drug prescribing rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Cara, can they really cook only once a week? Don't the herbs go bad sooner than a week? Mine always smell "off" after about 3 days. Julie I use crock pot cooking all the time with great success. I think it yields a superior product because the steam seal keeps the volatile oils in. plus compliance is way high- patients only have to cook it once a week w/a minimum of fuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 I should clarify how I deal w/ dosing for large bags: Essentially I replace grams w/ qian: so each bag is 3x larger than the original prescription. The equivalent of receiving 3 bags for the week. Each bag lasting 2 days. It is plenty, I assure you. So if you were using 9g dang gui, it would then be 9q. I often do use dosages that are larger than one oz daily, but there is rarely any reason to administer 4 oz daily. 1 and half –2 is my average and I get great results. And I get them quickly. I am not the least bit shy about using raw herbs and I’m bossy about it too. :-) also: Todd- the herbs are equivalent in strength to decocted herbs. Try it yourself and you will see. Because there is less evaporation, they are not more concentrated. I think it’s illogical to conclude that they must be stronger. Most of the liquid that is lost comes from the herbs absorbing water. Has anyone tried using rice wine w/ herbs in a crock pot to steep a medicinal wine? I see a new project for myself on the horizon. Cara " < " < Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:32:37 -0000 Re: cooking methods , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: An oz a day is the general rule of thumb. But feel > free to break that rule, as long as you know why you are breaking it). > the herbs are strong- but not any stronger than decocted herbs: I just need to point out for those who use doses more in line with modern chinese practice and most classical texts that 2 ounces or greater than 50 grams per day is typical. Up to 4 ounces or more is actually quite common. One ounce or 28 grams per day is considered quite low, more in line with kanpo. Cara says the corcked herbs are no stronger than decotion, but this does not make sense to me. they would have no loses due to cooking, thus must be stronger. If they are twice as strong, then one can get away with lower doses. If you find yourself to be successful using very low doses, I have a question. Keeping in mind that kanpo docs get good results with such low doses, I am curious if this method yields short term symptom relief. I find decoctions at this dose to be quite weak at short term relief. My longterm goal is not merely symptom relief, but in my experience most patients will not take decotions very long on the promise of better health down the road. Speaking of kanpo, it occurs to me that kanpo docs use forms of herbs (granules) made in giant crockpots essentially. Also kanpo is prescribed by MD's, not L.Ac. It is my understanding that one will receive a kanpo rx for health and a drug for symptoms much of the time. we do not have this option and should be careful to adopt a form of practice used by MD's will drug prescribing rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Are you storing your herbs in the fridge? My herbs don’t smell off. I think there is marginal deterioration of the product, but not enough to warrant cooking daily or every other. I’ve only had one person have a problem in 20 years: she left them on the counter in the summer and drank them despite the appearance of a scum on top. No common sense! Also- don’t mix the herbs first. Just decant them off. The sediment has no value: the herbs are already cooked. the medicine is in the tea. It’s not esthetic and can be really gross. Cara Julie Chambers <info Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:39:04 -0800 Re: Re: Cooking Methods Cara, can they really cook only once a week? Don't the herbs go bad sooner than a week? Mine always smell " off " after about 3 days. Julie I use crock pot cooking all the time with great success. I think it yields a superior product because the steam seal keeps the volatile oils in. plus compliance is way high- patients only have to cook it once a week w/a minimum of fuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: Just decant them off. The sediment has no > value: the herbs are already cooked. the medicine is in the tea. Subhuti says that decotions are good for six days with minimal deterioration. I agree with Cara that removing the sediment is key to storage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Cara, I love your bossiness. I tend to be that way too. I don't understand why so many practitioneres say that patients won't cook herbs. Yes, I do refrigerate them, and they still seem to smell off after 3 days. Oh well. Julie - Cara Frank Monday, February 10, 2003 11:54 AM Re: Re: Cooking Methods Are you storing your herbs in the fridge? My herbs don’t smell off. I think there is marginal deterioration of the product, but not enough to warrant cooking daily or every other. I’ve only had one person have a problem in 20 years: she left them on the counter in the summer and drank them despite the appearance of a scum on top. No common sense! Also- don’t mix the herbs first. Just decant them off. The sediment has no value: the herbs are already cooked. the medicine is in the tea. It’s not esthetic and can be really gross. Cara Julie Chambers <info Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:39:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Re: Cooking Methods Cara, can they really cook only once a week? Don't the herbs go bad sooner than a week? Mine always smell "off" after about 3 days.Julie I use crock pot cooking all the time with great success. I think it yields a superior product because the steam seal keeps the volatile oils in. plus compliance is way high- patients only have to cook it once a week w/a minimum of fuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 I honestly think the key to getting people to drink these nasty brews is to be totally congruent with the effectiveness and superiority of raw herb decoctions . If any ambivalence is conveyed then there is less compliance. Yup the herbs taste like shit. You will drink them, you will get better. Works almost every time. best of luck. I will survey my patients this week and ask them if their teas change taste and get back to you on it. Cara Cara, I love your bossiness. I tend to be that way too. I don't understand why so many practitioneres say that patients won't cook herbs. Yes, I do refrigerate them, and they still seem to smell off after 3 days. Oh well. //docs./info/terms/> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 > Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:32:37 -0000 > " < " < > Re: cooking methods > >> , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: >> An oz a day is the general rule of thumb. But feel free to break that rule, >> as long as you know why you are breaking it). the herbs are strong- but not >> any stronger than decocted herbs: >> > I just need to point out for those who use doses more in line with modern > chinese practice and most classical texts that 2 ounces or greater than 50 > grams per day is typical. Up to 4 ounces or more is actually quite common. > One ounce or 28 grams per day is considered quite low, more in line with > kanpo. Cara says the corcked herbs are no stronger than decotion, but this > does not make sense to me. they would have no loses due to cooking, thus must > be stronger. If they are twice as strong, then one can get away with lower > doses. If you find yourself to be successful using very low doses, I have a > question. Keeping in mind that kanpo docs get good results with such low > doses, I am curious if this method yields short term symptom relief. I find > decoctions at this dose to be quite weak at short term relief. My longterm > goal is not merely symptom relief, but in my experience most patients will not > take decotions very long on the promise of better health down the road. I still think it comes out much stronger. A little over a year and a half ago, I cooked up some Yi Zhi Ren for my single herbs class. I ground it coarsely and cooked it in the crock pot with quite a bit of water (none of which was lost in the cooking). Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact measurements anymore. I came out extremely strong. The class tasted it, taking less than a tablespoon each, and a majority of the class could feel the effects within 20 minutes. That's what started me wondering about dosing when using the crock pot. I'm planning on doing some dosage experiments to see if crock pot cooking does make the decoctions stronger or not. I plan to cook up equal amounts of a single herb in both the crock pot and the traditional method, then measure out equal amounts from each into clear glass containers and compare them for taste, color, smell, transparency, etc. Then I will add measured amounts of fresh water to the crock pot decoction until both samples look, taste and smell the same (to me). I plan to do this for several single herbs so that I can get an idea how different types of substances in our pharmacopoeia cook using this method. I know it's not the most scientific of methods, but I think it will give me a good idea how well cooking in a crock pot works as well as provide at least a rough guideline about how to adjust dosages when using this cooking method. I'll post my results when I'm done. I think it will take me about a month to do all of this as I'm still in school and have to find the time between my studies. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd certainly welcome them. Judy Saxe CSTCM student Denver, CO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Jude, as further clarification: there are different size crock pots. I use, and recommend that my patients use a large one. This may be why we have different experiences in the concentrations of the formulas. Cara I still think it comes out much stronger. A little over a year and a half ago, I cooked up some Yi Zhi Ren for my single herbs class. I ground it coarsely and cooked it in the crock pot with quite a bit of water (none of which was lost in the cooking). Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact measurements anymore. I came out extremely strong. The class tasted it, taking less than a tablespoon each, and a majority of the class could feel the effects within 20 minutes. That's what started me wondering about dosing when using the crock pot. I'm planning on doing some dosage experiments to see if crock pot cooking does make the decoctions stronger or not. I plan to cook up equal amounts of a single herb in both the crock pot and the traditional method, then measure out equal amounts from each into clear glass containers and compare them for taste, color, smell, transparency, etc. Then I will add measured amounts of fresh water to the crock pot decoction until both samples look, taste and smell the same (to me). I plan to do this for several single herbs so that I can get an idea how different types of substances in our pharmacopoeia cook using this method. I know it's not the most scientific of methods, but I think it will give me a good idea how well cooking in a crock pot works as well as provide at least a rough guideline about how to adjust dosages when using this cooking method. I'll post my results when I'm done. I think it will take me about a month to do all of this as I'm still in school and have to find the time between my studies. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd certainly welcome them. Judy Saxe CSTCM student Denver, CO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 , Jude <jude@o...> wrote: > I'm planning on doing some dosage experiments to see if crock pot cooking > does make the decoctions stronger or not. Judy a worthy undertaking, however the parameters you describe do not necessarily translate into increased potency. the only way to settle this matter is to do scientifc analysis of decoction versus crockpot extraction. Nevertheless,in the absence of this, I will look forward to your results. I should point out that you have stated for the record that you believe the crockpot extraction to be much stronger. This is an unacceptable scientific bias. You need to set up the experiment and have other classmates make the evaluation blinded (not knowing which batch is which). Otherwise your a priori bias plus the qualitative nature of the analysis will skew the results beyond usefulness. Research done in private that cannot be monitored independently is generally considered to have no value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Jude wrote: > I'm planning on doing some dosage experiments to see if crock pot cooking > does make the decoctions stronger or not. I was taught that the first cooking, the first 20 minutes will pull the yang nature (or the thermal energetics) out of the herb. The second cooking will pull the yin nature (or the flavor energetics) from the herb. This, from Mr. Nei Jing: Dr. Yang, Tiende at ECTOM. Haven't heard this particular point brought up yet. For those with the desire for testing active ingredients and so forth, might be an interesting test to see what kind of difference there is between the decoction derived from the first cooking and the second one. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > Jude wrote: > > > I'm planning on doing some dosage experiments to see if crock pot cooking > > does make the decoctions stronger or not. > > I was taught that the first cooking, the first 20 minutes will pull the > yang nature (or the thermal energetics) out of the herb. The second > cooking will pull the yin nature (or the flavor energetics) from the > herb. I have also heard soemthing like this before... But what if one does one cook for 45 minutes or so.... Does this Yang nature get evaporated/ lost..? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 I maybe missing some messages somewhere - but this method is probably better for tonics rather than exterior releasing formulas, correct? I'm also curious about the 'steam seal'. The crock pots I have seen have loose fitting plastic or glass lids where some steam can escape from the edges. Is there some kind of higher end machine with a tight seal? From reading the messages I am pretty sure nobody is talking about using a pressure cooker... hmm... oops, steel sides. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 What do they use in Chinese hospitals? Jim Ramholz , " Geoffrey Hudson " <list@a...> wrote: > I maybe missing some messages somewhere - but this method is probably > better for tonics rather than exterior releasing formulas, correct? > I'm also curious about the 'steam seal'. The crock pots I have seen > have loose fitting plastic or glass lids where some steam can escape > from the edges. Is there some kind of higher end machine > with a tight seal? From reading the messages I am pretty sure nobody is > talking > about using a pressure cooker... hmm... oops, steel sides. > > Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 It isn’t an airtight seal, but when I lift the lid off there is definitely a suction that is created from the steam. Cara I maybe missing some messages somewhere - but this method is probably better for tonics rather than exterior releasing formulas, correct? I'm also curious about the 'steam seal'. The crock pots I have seen have loose fitting plastic or glass lids where some steam can escape from the edges. Is there some kind of higher end machine with a tight seal? From reading the messages I am pretty sure nobody is talking about using a pressure cooker... hmm... oops, steel sides. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 " " wrote: > > I was taught that the first cooking, the first 20 minutes will pull the > > yang nature (or the thermal energetics) out of the herb. The second > > cooking will pull the yin nature (or the flavor energetics) from the > > herb. > > I have also heard soemthing like this before... But what if one does one cook for 45 minutes or so.... Does this Yang nature get evaporated/ lost..? I don't know. But given the fact that this had to have been a question that many before us have asked, I would presume that the Yang nature would be lost by a lengthy cooking time. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 I watched a video that some interns took when they went on an externship to Chengdu, and they showed some footage from the pharmacy. There were rows of gas burners under metal looking pots that had lids on top. There were many pots going at once ~20-30. When the formulas were done cooking, they were poured into one of those famous cork-top Chinese thermos bottles, and an orderly would take the formulas around to the various patients. They also were using those porcelin coated metal coffee cups for cupping, so I don't think they would invest in any fancy cooking gear. Geoff > " James Ramholz <jramholz " <jramholz > Re: Cooking Methods > > What do they use in Chinese hospitals? > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 In his new book, Chinese Herbal Medicines: Comparisons and Characteristics (Churchill Livingstone, 2002), Yifan Yang has some general herbal preparation recommendations. Soak the herbs for an hour; then cook 20 minutes and strain. Herbs for wind- cold and wind-heat should be cooked for 10 minutes less; tonifying herbs should be cooked for 10 minutes longer. Generally, cook heavy substances for 30 minutes before adding other herbs; add aromatic or pungent herbs 5 minutes before the end of cooking. Rare and expensive herbs that are traditionally used in powdered form should be added without cooking. Jim Ramholz , " Geoffrey Hudson " <list@a...> wrote: > I watched a video that some interns took when they went on an externship > to Chengdu, and they showed some footage from the pharmacy. There were > rows of gas burners under metal looking pots that had lids on top. > There were many pots going at once ~20-30. When the formulas were done > cooking, they were poured into one of those famous cork-top Chinese > thermos bottles, and an orderly would take the formulas around to the > various patients. They also were using those porcelin coated metal > coffee cups for cupping, so I don't think they would invest in any fancy > cooking gear. > > Geoff > > > " James Ramholz <jramholz> " <jramholz> > > Re: Cooking Methods > > > > What do they use in Chinese hospitals? > > > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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