Guest guest Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 I have been contemplating this question for some time and have some ideas but was wondering what the group thought... I might have touched on this in the past... Regulating the qi, especially the liver seems essential, atleast to some degree, in most Tx Prin. In absence of obvious physical manifistations/ signs (i.e. hypoch. pn, st pain) what is the criteria one chooses to determine what (lv) qi regulator is used. Let's look at xiang fu vs. chai hu. I would say these are prob the most popular. xiang fu - is much more mellow, more systemic, not damaging to the yin. chai hu is much more forceful, opens up the liver, is upbearing, and had potential to damage the yin because of this. Hammer gives an idea about the pulse. (this is the way I interpret it) . IF you have a wiry/full/ more excess pulse the liver needs to be really openened - and he suggests si ni san - if the pulse is more thin/wiry more on the xu side, he also suggests a more nourishing approach (yin/xue). WHat am I getting at... Well not sure.. but with chai hu's dramatic actions, I wonder which people would fair better with the more gentler xiang fu... I.e. someone with depression - Most of the time the liver needs some kind of push - so when do we blast and when do we soothe. IF the pulse is forceful do we hit the liver hard with the chai hu vs. a more xu thin/wiry type of depression - xiang fu???? This somewhat makes sense, becuase the forceful pulse usually shows some excess, and if it is contrained qi, then what better taht my favorite sinisan.,.. But I always wonder that one day I will do this and that excess just explodes... Maybe my perception of chaihu is more powerful than it really is... I fell One must be careful releasing that constraint... which always makes me wonder about gentler approaches.. What are other's experiences..?? Maybe a better question is besides obvious tendecies toward yang rising s/s when have people noticed chai hu being the wrong choice. I am currently experimentting which chai hu is both cases and will see what happenenes. I have not had any side-effects yet... (I hope that babble made sense enough to get some discussion going) -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 , " <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > I have been contemplating this question for some time and have some ideas but was wondering what the group thought... I might have touched on this in the past... > > Regulating the qi, especially the liver seems essential, atleast to some degree, in most Tx Prin. In absence of obvious physical manifistations/ signs (i.e. hypoch. pn, st pain) what is the criteria one chooses to determine what (lv) qi regulator is used. Let's look at xiang fu vs. chai hu. I would say these are prob the most popular. > xiang fu - is much more mellow, more systemic, not damaging to the yin. > chai hu is much more forceful, opens up the liver, is upbearing, and had potential to damage the yin because of this. > Hammer gives an idea about the pulse. (this is the way I interpret it) . IF you have a wiry/full/ more excess pulse the liver needs to be really openened - and he suggests si ni san - if the pulse is more thin/wiry more on the xu side, he also suggests a more nourishing approach (yin/xue). WHat am I getting at... Well not sure.. but with chai hu's dramatic actions, I wonder which people would fair better with the more gentler xiang fu... I.e. someone with depression - Most of the time the liver needs some kind of push - so when do we blast and when do we soothe. IF the pulse is forceful do we hit the liver hard with the chai hu vs. a more xu thin/wiry type of depression - xiang fu???? This somewhat makes sense, becuase the forceful pulse usually shows some excess, and if it is contrained qi, then what better taht my favorite sinisan.,.. But I always wonder that one day I will do this and that excess just explodes... Maybe my perception of chaihu is more powerful than it really is... I fell One must be careful releasing that constraint... which always makes me wonder about gentler approaches.. What are other's experiences..?? Jason: Releasing the constraint more gently isn't always a choice, depending on how forceful the pulse is or how much wiry tension is holding it in place. Chai hu does its work well but should be used with other herbs. It's a question of more precise diagnosis and anticipating where the movement will go when released. For example, in my migraine formula, I've tried to cover all the bases---and so far have been successful. Based on several Hua T'o formulas, it contains 33 ingredients that are designed to open the liver but also bring down any rising yang whether it is in the superficial or internal channels. As in doing Tai chi chuan, the opponent (in this case, any perverse movement openned up by the Chai hu) is never wrong. Bai shao, Dang gui, Shu di huang, Chuan xiong, Ju hua, Jue ming zi, Chai hu, Mai men dong, Qiang huo, Shen jin cao, Tian ma, Yan hu suo, Yu li ren, Chuan hua jiao, Fang feng, Fu ling (bai), Hou Po, Jie geng, Shi gao, Xin yi, Zhi shi, Bai zhi, Bai zhu, Ban xia, Bo he, Chen pi, Gan cao, Jiang can, Jing jie, Long dan cao, Man jing zi, Xi xin, and Xia ku cao. Chai hu is only 2.5% and Bai shao is 31% of the formula. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 Jim why do you have Shen jin cao in you migraine formula alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Jim why do you have Shen jin cao in your migraine formula? Alon: It primarily works together with Qiang huo to clear the channels and collaterals to help the muscles relax. The ashi points in the neck and shoulders often trigger or accompany migraines. So, it also helps buffer the liver stress in the musculature, rather than letting it go to straight to the head and vascular system. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2003 Report Share Posted February 13, 2003 It primarily works together with Qiang huo to clear the channels and collaterals to help the muscles relax. The ashi points in the neck and shoulders often trigger or accompany migraines. So, it also helps buffer the liver stress in the musculature, rather than letting it go to straight to the head and vascular system.>>>Interesting Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 , " < @h...> " <@h...> wrote: Let's look at xiang fu vs. chai hu. I guess it depends what you are doing. If you are using a modified classical formula for which chai hu is the chief, is it even appropriate to sub xiang fu. The formula can't really be called xiao yao san jia jian if it has no chai hu in it, can it? Does xiang fu interact with bai zhu, bai shao and gan cao in similar ways as chai hu or does it only overlap more narrowly. I note the combination of chai hu and xiang fu is considered important in chai hu shu gan san. So it was not considered redundant to include both by that formulator. Chai hu's uplifting is often desirable, perhaps moreso than it is a concern. I think the uplifting is easily antagonized by bai shao or long gu, mu li. You many want to minimize your number of herbs. But I would suggest that sometimes it is ideal to ascend and descend simultaneously to accomplish one's goal than just spreading more gently. A number of classical formulas use this strategy (xue fu zhu yu tang, si ni san - I hope you are not bored with that one already - -). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 , " <@i...> " <@i...> wrote: I think the uplifting is easily antagonized by bai shao or long gu, mu li. You many want to minimize your number of herbs. : I'm not sure that I'm following your line of thought. " Antagonized " or modulated by Bai shao or Long gu and Mu li---as in Da chai hu tang or Chai hu jia long gu mu li tang? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 > >I guess it depends what you are doing. If you are using a modified >classical formula for which chai hu is the chief, is it even appropriate to >sub xiang fu. possibly... depends on the situation.. >The formula can't really be called xiao yao san jia jian if it has no chai >hu in it, can it? nope... you are right... Does xiang fu interact with bai zhu, bai shao and gan cao in similar >ways as chai hu or does it only overlap more narrowly. I note the >combination of chai hu and xiang fu is considered important in chai hu shu >gan san. So it was not considered redundant to include both by that >formulator. Of course there are times that both are needed and appropriate, but,.. (See below).... Chai hu's >uplifting is often desirable, perhaps moreso than it is a concern. Yes I agree... I think the >uplifting is easily antagonized by bai shao or long gu, mu li. You many >want to minimize your number of herbs. But I would suggest that sometimes >it is ideal to ascend and descend simultaneously to accomplish one's goal >than just spreading more gently. Of course.... A number of classical formulas use this strategy >(xue fu zhu yu tang, si ni san - I hope you are not bored with that one >already - No sinisan is still one of my favorites... I guess what I am getting at is this: When is it appropriate to use a more mellow approach than a more forceful chaihu approach.. Not not just from a pattern perspective, but more objective s/s... I.e. what pulses suggest that xiangfu might be better than chaihu... (this is the kind of thing I am trying to figure out).... Maybe there is no answer, but hammer suggests that he has figured a system out for himself, based on the amount of wiryness.. Going back to depression, some people seem to need to be opened up with force to break out of it, some will respond poorly to this approach, some need to be soothed, liver softened (I.e. bai shao, dang gui, & xiang fu)... I am trying to figure out some criteria (i.e. pulse) to help determine this... And the pitfalls associated with this... I hope that is maybe clearer.... -JAson _______________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 While I tend to be a 'chai hu kind of guy' ( I have taken a lot of it over the years, maybe too much, and prescribed a lot as well), I have learned to be more conservative with it. Some years ago I had a patient with fairly well developed hepatitis C who developed elevated liver enzymes when taking a chai hu prescription. I had others who didn't. I personally like a modified version of yi guan jian for which I added xiang fu for patients with dual liver-kidney yin vacuity with qi depression, especially when chai hu is a bit tricky. I agree with what Jason says here. On Saturday, February 15, 2003, at 06:48 PM, wrote: > No sinisan is still one of my favorites... I guess what I am getting > at is > this: When is it appropriate to use a more mellow approach than a more > forceful chaihu approach.. Not not just from a pattern perspective, > but more > objective s/s... I.e. what pulses suggest that xiangfu might be better > than > chaihu... (this is the kind of thing I am trying to figure out).... > Maybe > there is no answer, but hammer suggests that he has figured a system > out for > himself, based on the amount of wiryness.. Going back to depression, > some > people seem to need to be opened up with force to break out of it, > some will > respond poorly to this approach, some need to be soothed, liver > softened > (I.e. bai shao, dang gui, & xiang fu)... I am trying to figure out some > criteria (i.e. pulse) to help determine this... And the pitfalls > associated > with this... I hope that is maybe clearer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 , " " wrote: When is it appropriate to use a more mellow approach than a more > forceful chaihu approach.. Not not just from a pattern perspective, but more objective s/s... I.e. what pulses suggest that xiangfu might be better than chaihu... (this is the kind of thing I am trying to figure out).... Maybe there is no answer, but Hammer suggests that he has figured a system out for himself, based on the amount of wiryness. . . >>> Jason: I would expand on Hammer's answer. Besides the degree of wiriness, there are several other qualities to examine before deciding what herbs to give for depression. Part of the pulse pattern to consider will be how well wood and fire connect, if there is any reversal of 5-Elements within wood (cosine), and how well water supports wood. The question is not whether to use Chai hu but how to apply it effectively. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 When is it appropriate to use a more mellow approach than a more forceful chaihu approach.. Not not just from a pattern perspective, but more objective s/s... I.e. what pulses suggest that xiangfu might be better than chaihu... >>>>Its not just a question of mellow. Using Chi hu is more appropriate when Liv Qi is not circulating while xiang fu better when liv qi attacks the center. Chi hu opens the liver while xiang fu unblocks it. One is better for mental s/s while the other for bloating etc Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 , " " < @h...> wrote: but hammer suggests that he has figured a system out for > himself, based on the amount of wiryness.. Going back to depression, some > people seem to need to be opened up with force to break out of it, some will > respond poorly to this approach, some need to be soothed, liver softened > (I.e. bai shao, dang gui, & xiang fu)... I am trying to figure out some > criteria (i.e. pulse) to help determine this... And the pitfalls associated > with this... I hope that is maybe clearer.... > for years, I have seen people looking for alternatives to chai hu, all americans, by the way. my chinese teachers always made extensive use of this herb and said its risks were easily antagonized. that does not mean there are times when xiang fu might make more sense, but lets not be too scared of chai hu. to the japanese who don't modify their SHL formulas, this is apparently a nonissue. your question is good; I just don't want it to reinforce an unnecessary fear of chai hu that has led some professors to teach things like yu jin is a milder alternative to chai hu. While yu jin does not lift, my teachers felt it was quite a bit stronger than chai hu and had no actually history of substitution for chai hu. Having said that, I may use xiang fu in what I perceive to be milder cases, but I do not rely on pulse diagnosis to make this determination. symptoms usually are pretty revealing on this account. todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 I think the more knowledge one has about materia medica, the more flexibly one can use it. Chai hu is no exception. When we learn all of its possible combinations (dui yao), prescriptions, and qualities/traditional usages, we can then apply it clinically and safely. Treatment strategies are also of critical importance. With liver disorders, we don't always want to treat directly. One Chinese strategy, employing the five phases, is not to treat an affected viscera, but treat the mother, child or controlling phase(s). If we get an aggressive response from the liver, perhaps another medicinal would be better. In the case I offered about elevated liver enzymes after chai hu, I asked Michael Broffman about it. He responded that chai hu is a 'break in and enter' medicinal that goes directly to the liver, and the response of the patient depends on whether there is a replete pathogen that will respond by 'stirring things up', or a vacuous liver that truly is being aggravated by the medicinal. In long-term treatment of liver or shao yang disorders, it may be appropriate to use an indirect strategy. A Chinese statement of fact is " in liver diseases of vacuity, supplement the spleen to heal the liver " . If the liver yin or blood is very empty, it may be appropriate to use xiang fu or chuan lian zi with yin supplementing medicinals. On Sunday, February 16, 2003, at 10:12 AM, < wrote: > , " " < > @h...> wrote: > but hammer suggests that he has figured a system out for >> himself, based on the amount of wiryness.. Going back to depression, >> some >> people seem to need to be opened up with force to break out of it, >> some will >> respond poorly to this approach, some need to be soothed, liver >> softened >> (I.e. bai shao, dang gui, & xiang fu)... I am trying to figure out >> some >> criteria (i.e. pulse) to help determine this... And the pitfalls >> associated >> with this... I hope that is maybe clearer.... >> > > > for years, I have seen people looking for alternatives to chai hu, all > americans, by the way. my chinese teachers always made extensive use > of > this herb and said its risks were easily antagonized. that does not > mean there > are times when xiang fu might make more sense, but lets not be too > scared of > chai hu. to the japanese who don't modify their SHL formulas, this is > apparently a nonissue. your question is good; I just don't want it to > reinforce > an unnecessary fear of chai hu that has led some professors to teach > things > like yu jin is a milder alternative to chai hu. While yu jin does not > lift, my > teachers felt it was quite a bit stronger than chai hu and had no > actually > history of substitution for chai hu. Having said that, I may use > xiang fu in what > I perceive to be milder cases, but I do not rely on pulse diagnosis to > make this > determination. symptoms usually are pretty revealing on this account. > > todd > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 , " " wrote: If we get an aggressive response from the liver, perhaps another medicinal would be better. Z'ev and All: When using herbs, are you preparing them according to the Chinese methods or simply just using them raw? When using Chai hu in powdered concentrate form, you need to carefully modify a formula by ading other herbs to take into account its action on the liver and prevent an aggressive response. For example, my depression formula has 29 herbs in it; of which, Chai hu is only 5%. When using it raw, Chai hu is more for exterior conditions. But you can prepare the Chai hu itself before putting it in a formula for internal problems. Him-che Yeung lists 7 different ways to prepare it. For example, preparing it with vinegar for blood circulation and to stop pain. Of course you don't want to tell your patient that you're preparing Chai hu with tortoise blood to benefit the yin ;-) Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 > When using it raw, Chai hu is more for exterior conditions.> I don't know if I would necessarily agree with this... -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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