polyuria

[Guest guest]

Group,

Regarding the heat in the spleen Z'ev and Todd refer to, if you look at the indications for Ma Zi Ren Tang in Bensky/Barolet's Formulas and Strategies on page 124, you will see that this formula is for "heat-induced dryness in the Stomach and Intestines. Heat and dryness in the Stomach depletes the fluids in the Spleen. The excess in the Stomach binds the fluid-depleted Spleen, which is then unable to distribute fluids to the extremities. Instead, the remaining fluids seep into the Bladder, causing frequent urination. The Intestines then become dry, causing constipation with hard stool that is difficult to expel. The dry, yellow tongue coating reflects the depletion of fluids and slight heat in the interior. The submerged, rapid pulse is a classic indication of yin deficiency. When yin deficiency is accompanied by dryness in the Intestines, a floating, choppy pulse may also appear, indicating interior stagnation."

 

I find that usually when people have yin deficiency, their left (or possibly right) kidney pulse is hard, indicating the lack of suppleness supplied by yin. This is something I read in Hammer's pulse book which helped sell me on the Hammer/Shen pulse method, because I had been finding this in my own experience and did not know what to make of it.

Joseph Garner

[Guest guest]

People,

Jim Ramholtz wrote, speaking of a kidney pulse which feels hard to the touch:

<Besides yin depletion there are several other ways for this pulse to

<develop. From the TCM yin/yang perspective, the hardening of the

<kidney pulse also occurs when it loses support from the stomach qi.

<And from the 5-Element perspective, the kidney pulse hardens when it

<no longer communicates effectively with the other 4 organs; the

<kidney qi starts to become isolated. If it persists over a long

<period of time, this is one of the pulse qualities that can indicate

<that the kidney is weakening and failing.>

 

Jim, how can you palpationally differentiate between these three scenarios--yin depletion, st qi not supporting kd, and kd isolation--when the kidney pulse feels, I presume, the same in all cases. I can imagine the st qi will not feel strong in the second case, but does that automatically mean it is not supporting the kd?

 

<It will be interesting to see if this quality becomes more frequent

<this year. It is an Earth excessive year (Ram); as well as a 6 in

<the 9 Flying Stars system (in this case, 2 flies to the 1 or water

<position). In any case, we should see more dampness and stagnation

<in deeper parts of the body.>

 

Just what I need--more dampness even harder to root out.

 

<I'm anticipating that the colds and flu in the latter half of 2003

<will be dominated by shaoyang symptoms because wood revenges water

<in 5-Elements.>

 

That's nice to know. I suppose we should all stock up on Cold Qwell.

Joseph

[Guest guest]

The pathomechanism I have seen for the polyuria of diabetes is that the

heat in the middle accelerates the normal processing of food and water and

thus they are passed more quickly through the body and not absorbed and

assimilated. However, this would seem to result in frequent, but scanty

urination, not the copious urination of diabetics. Am I incorrect? But I

thought uncontrolled diabetics urinated an increased volume, not merely

increased frequency.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre

minds " -- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>

> The pathomechanism I have seen for the polyuria of diabetes is that the heat

in the middle accelerates the normal processing of food and water and thus they

are passed more quickly through the body and not absorbed and assimilated.

However, this would seem to result in frequent, but scanty urination, not the

copious urination of diabetics. Am I incorrect? But I thought uncontrolled

diabetics urinated an increased volume, not merely increased frequency.

 

Wouldn't the heat dry up the fluids?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

An example of a heat disorder with polyuria is pi yue/straitened

spleen, where yang ming heat harrasses the spleen, causing it to lose

the ability to separate clear and turbid fluids. The symptoms are

frequent clear sometimes copious urination along with dry heat

constipation. It is possible for this to occur in patients who are

diagnosed as diabetic by WM.

 

 

On Friday, February 21, 2003, at 10:09 AM, wrote:

 

> The pathomechanism I have seen for the polyuria of diabetes is that

> the heat in the middle accelerates the normal processing of food and

> water and thus they are passed more quickly through the body and not

> absorbed and assimilated. However, this would seem to result in

> frequent, but scanty urination, not the copious urination of

> diabetics. Am I incorrect? But I thought uncontrolled diabetics

> urinated an increased volume, not merely increased frequency.

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> An example of a heat disorder with polyuria is pi yue/straitened

> spleen, where yang ming heat harrasses the spleen, causing it to lose

> the ability to separate clear and turbid fluids. The symptoms are

> frequent clear sometimes copious urination along with dry heat

> constipation.

 

I thought the urination is scanty in straitened spleen.

 

[Guest guest]

, acugrpaz@a... wrote:

Instead, the

> remaining fluids seep into the Bladder, causing frequent urination.

 

frequent, yes, but copious, too??

 

[Guest guest]

To quote the commentary on mai zi ren wan in the Wiseman/Mitchell SHL,

pg. 353, " urination is copious or normal " . " Because the spleen cannot

perform its functions correctly and fluid movement is disturbed, excess

water seeps into the bladder and insufficient water moves into the

intestines. Internal heat forces the water out of the bladder, hence

urination is frequent. "

 

 

On Friday, February 21, 2003, at 12:21 PM,

< wrote:

 

> I thought the urination is scanty in straitened spleen.

>

 

[Guest guest]

, acugrpaz@a... wrote:

> Group,

> I find that usually when people have yin deficiency, their left

(or possibly right) kidney pulse is hard, indicating the lack of

suppleness supplied by yin.>>>

 

 

Joseph:

 

Besides yin depletion there are several other ways for this pulse to

develop. From the TCM yin/yang perspective, the hardening of the

kidney pulse also occurs when it loses support from the stomach qi.

And from the 5-Element perspective, the kidney pulse hardens when it

no longer communicates effectively with the other 4 organs; the

kidney qi starts to become isolated. If it persists over a long

period of time, this is one of the pulse qualities that can indicate

that the kidney is weakening and failing.

 

It will be interesting to see if this quality becomes more frequent

this year. It is an Earth excessive year (Ram); as well as a 6 in

the 9 Flying Stars system (in this case, 2 flies to the 1 or water

position). In any case, we should see more dampness and stagnation

in deeper parts of the body.

 

I'm anticipating that the colds and flu in the latter half of 2003

will be dominated by shaoyang symptoms because wood revenges water

in 5-Elements.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> To quote the commentary on mai zi ren wan in the Wiseman/Mitchell SHL,

> pg. 353, " urination is copious or normal " . " Because the spleen cannot

> perform its functions correctly and fluid movement is disturbed, excess

> water seeps into the bladder and insufficient water moves into the

> intestines. Internal heat forces the water out of the bladder, hence

> urination is frequent. "

 

Thanks, z'ev. that is a common pattern indeed. da huang has powerful

effects on restoring pancreatic function and decreasing tissue resistance,

while huo ma ren is extremely nutritive, thus it makes sense from both an

eastern and western perspective that this formula could be used in some DM

patients.

 

 

And people ask why we study the SHL? :-)

 

[Guest guest]

, acugrpaz@a... wrote:

> Jim, how can you palpationally differentiate between these three

> scenarios--yin depletion, st qi not supporting kd, and kd

isolation--when the kidney pulse feels, I presume, the same in all

cases. I can imagine the st qi will not feel strong in the second

case, but does that automatically mean it is not supporting the kd?>>

 

 

The kidney pulse may not necessarily feel completely the same in

each conditon because the hard or stony movement does not have to

dominate the entire positon. If the kidney organ is affected, it

could be just the organ depth (the deepest of the Nan Jing 3-depths

method). Unlike general TCM pulse diagnosis, other systems look at

the different depths as described by the Nan Jing and may show

different qualities---what Li Shi Zhen might call a compound pulse.

Pulses are usually compounded with other qualities. In any case, you

also need to compare other positons and depths (used in the Nan Jing

method) to differentiate whether the kidney itself is the problem or

just other parts of the lower jiao.

 

A hard or stony pulse of the kidney, by definition, has lost

communication with the stomach qi. This could happen from emotional

or physiological blockages as well; so the stomach pulse may not

show depletion. From the perspective of other pulse systems, Xu and

Shi are often secondary properties of a problem and not the actual

diagnosis. The networking and interaction between organs and parts

of the body are usually determine the character of the disorder. For

example, in cases where emotional or physiological problems block or

redirect channels.

 

For example, if the kidney pulse also has a Sunken and very thin

quality, it indicates that the water phase is not getting activated

or mixing with yang. Yin is becoming more yin and isolated. When the

kidney is weak, it will require more water consumption and will, in

turn, affect the bladder. It will lead to hardening of the kidney.

It can also indicate lack of jing or low hormones. At the same time,

you have to see where this kidney syndrome is coming from in order

to get a clearly detailed view of the situation. The etiology---

which can be varied---is part of the ongoing problem. Many times it

comes from the liver.

 

If the liver cannot deal with all the toxins, that stress will be

sent to the kidney. As far as the control of toxins in the body, the

liver takes care of the toxins related to the blood chemistry; the

lung takes care of all the energized toxins; the large intestine

removes metabolic waste and toxins because it is a gross type of

filtration; and the kidney takes care of strong chemical toxins

which are heavier then the ones taken care of by the liver. So if

liver is overburdened, it will send it to kidney.

 

While doing that, the liver will usually first send that stress to

the muscles around the kidney, so the lumbar muscles will tighten.

If there is more a muscle pain than kidney pain, it means that the

liver is throwing it out to the kidney. On the other hand, if the

kidney pulse alone is very tight and muscles around it are loose,

then it is solely a kidney problem without any affect from the

liver. If the kidney organ has a stony pulse, then it can be

referred pain from the organ to the back. When you look at the

pulse, even before palpating the back, you can clearly see the

pattern.

 

 

>

> That's nice to know. I suppose we should all stock up on Cold

Qwell. >>>

 

In 2002, because the Revenge Cycle was cold energy (the first half

of the year was dominated by heat that consistantly dried up the yin

fluids) the cold and flu symptoms developed at the Taiyin level

without going through Taiyang, Shaoyang, or Yangming symptomology.

Patients developed coughs starting from late August and the colds

and flu started with chest congestion, fatigue, and bone achyness---

symptoms of cold deep inside. The lung pulse was sunken and

retaining phlegm; and phlegm was turning to heat.

 

If colds and flu in 2003 develop Shaoyang symptoms without going

through the Taiyang stage, then this year's 5-Element Revenege Cycle

will the dominant pattern in their development.

 

But again, we need to look at a statistical population. The 5-

Element Revenge Cycle takes the entire year to develop, unlike the

SHL pattern which develops in that one season. Stronger patients not

responding to the Revenge Cycle but who catches the flu later in the

year could show the basic SHL patterns and their progress in order.

The pulse pictures rather than the symptoms are the most reliable

observation for SHL.

 

 

Jim Ramholz