information overload

[Guest guest]

Todd - can you cite the studies?

thanks - Will

 

 

I have been reading about teaching methods and came across some interesting controlled studies. Student who were given less information in lectures did much better on the same tests as those who had information dense lectures. In fact, the average was actually a full 1-2 letter grades higher. so for example, assume everyone was taking the same california board exam. those who learned a portion of the reference material extremely well would fare better than those who attempted to learn it all. So instead of teaching students 300 herbs, of which they will remember about 30%, you teach them 150 key herbs and they will remember 90%. So instead of remembering 90 herbs, they remember 135. so you get more from less. Reducing lecture by 50% can really result in tripling retention rates.

[Guest guest]

I have been reading about teaching methods and came across some

interesting controlled studies. Student who were given less information

in lectures did much better on the same tests as those who had information

dense lectures. In fact, the average was actually a full 1-2 letter

grades higher. so for example, assume everyone was taking the same

california board exam. those who learned a portion of the reference

material extremely well would fare better than those who attempted to

learn it all. So instead of teaching students 300 herbs, of which they

will remember about 30%, you teach them 150 key herbs and they will

remember 90%. So instead of remembering 90 herbs, they remember 135. so

you get more from less. Reducing lecture by 50% can really result in

tripling retention rates.

 

Additional class time can be filled with active learning experiences,

perhaps involving simple cases, discussion, more extensive hands-on with

the raw herbs. the idea is not to just add more information about each

herb. I am not advocating this position, by the way, just floating the

idea. Maybe information dense lectures are not effective for most adult

learners. But who has succeeded more as a teacher, the one who imparts

more information in sheer volume or the one who can insure they retain and

understand what they have been taught.

 

We could stubbornly cling to the position that one must attempt to learn

it all. that's the way they do it in china and its the way its always been.

but if the end result is less knowledge and understanding, what has

really been accomplished.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre

minds " -- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

Rory -

There are many other factors that affect learning in China such as the immersion of training 8 hours a day 7 days a week for four years. The gross inequity of training time alone renders it an issue of 'apples and oranges'.

 

What Todd expresses here has long been my opinion (since 1986) on adult learning in America. In recent years, Harvard, USC, and UCLA have been coming to similar conclusions as they evolve problem based learning systems for basic as well as clinical sciences. There is a growing body of evidence that cramming the material into the time allotted generates lower outcomes than creating meaningful learning experiences.

 

Will

 

Hmmmm...in my experience, Chinese practitioners trained in China know there stuff much more thoroughly than the average here, so apparently the overall outcome of their education is does not suffer.

[Guest guest]

Al and I were just having this very discussion. I find it easy to get

carried away by my own enthusiasm, wanting to cram in more minutiae than is

necessary. I suppose this is because I really enjoy small differences that

distinguish similar herbs. I'm am practicing giving less information.

Wanting my instruction to get deeper, not wider.

and I'm also exploring ideas for learning that are really fun- cooking

classes built into the program: not just formulas but also herb/foods,

medicinal wines etc. I had a student who made me a gift of a framed collage

of Bu Zhong Yi Qi tang, so maybe we'll have arts and crafts too :-)

 

Cara

 

 

>

> Additional class time can be filled with active learning experiences,

> perhaps involving simple cases, discussion, more extensive hands-on with

> the raw herbs. the idea is not to just add more information about each

> herb. I am not advocating this position, by the way, just floating the

> idea. Maybe information dense lectures are not effective for most adult

> learners. But who has succeeded more as a teacher, the one who imparts

> more information in sheer volume or the one who can insure they retain and

> understand what they have been taught.

>

> We could stubbornly cling to the position that one must attempt to learn

> it all. that's the way they do it in china and its the way its always been.

> but if the end result is less knowledge and understanding, what has

> really been accomplished.

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

> voice:

> fax:

>

> " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre

> minds " -- Albert Einstein

>

 

--

Cara O. Frank, R.Ac

herbbabe

China Herb Company

[Guest guest]

At 11:07 PM -0800 3/5/03, wrote:

>We could stubbornly cling to the position that one must attempt to

>learn it all. that's the way they do it in china and its the way its

>always been. but if the end result is less knowledge and

>understanding, what has really been accomplished.

--

 

Hmmmm...in my experience, Chinese practitioners trained in China know

there stuff much more thoroughly than the average here, so apparently

the overall outcome of their education is does not suffer.

 

Before we jump to conclusions, how do we know whether or not the

amount of material we expect right now is at the level of the greater

amount in the study. In my experience, there are students in our

programs who do very well with the amount of material. So the study

you refer to doesn't appear to be a guide as to what to do with

respect to these students.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

What Todd expresses here has long been my opinion (since 1986) on adult learning in America. In recent years, Harvard, USC, and UCLA have been coming to similar conclusions as they evolve problem based learning systems for basic as well as clinical sciences. There is a growing body of evidence that cramming the material into the time allotted generates lower outcomes than creating meaningful learning experiences

>>>In the US high education emphasis learning to learn not memorize. Its quite different than Asia. As what is more effective for TCM learning, its hard to say. We will need much more experience. Personally I have always studied what seemed to me to very important, to depth, but only glossed over what did not. I found this to be a good way to learn in depth things I needed to know.

Alon

[Guest guest]

At 9:54 AM -0500 3/6/03,

WMorris116 wrote:

There are

many other factors that affect learning in China such as the immersion

of training 8 hours a day 7 days a week for four years. The gross

inequity of training time alone renders it an issue of 'apples and

oranges'.

 

What Todd

expresses here has long been my opinion (since 1986) on adult learning

in America. In recent years, Harvard, USC, and UCLA have been coming

to similar conclusions as they evolve problem based learning systems

for basic as well as clinical sciences. There is a growing body of

evidence that cramming the material into the time allotted generates

lower outcomes than creating meaningful learning

experiences.

--

Of course, but I was suggesting that what we are requiring may

not qualify as cramming, according to the criteria in these studies.

What qualifies as cramming for a person entering a TCM program with a

2.5 gpa from junior college may be a breeze for someone with a 3.5 gpa

and a degree from a university. We can't conclude that we should

reduce course content without considering these factors.

 

Even if we do conclude that we are cramming, we would still not

be able to say that the answer is to reduce course content. For

example, does the research indicate the effect of reducing a three

semester year to a two semester year, or not allowing full time

students to do part time jobs? These may

 

One thing we can apparently agree on: that Chinese students of

TCM are on average better trained than American students. Can we not

conclude therefore that we should emulate the Chinese model, which, if

anything, has greater content, not less.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...>

wrote:

> At 11:07 PM -0800 3/5/03, wrote:

> >We could stubbornly cling to the position that one must attempt to

> >learn it all. that's the way they do it in china and its the way its

> >always been. but if the end result is less knowledge and

> >understanding, what has really been accomplished.

> --

>

> Hmmmm...in my experience, Chinese practitioners trained in China know

> there stuff much more thoroughly than the average here, so apparently

> the overall outcome of their education is does not suffer.

 

the issue here is not just learning in general, but learning for western adult

learners. chinese learners are typically teenagers when they start TCM

college, plus thier society is geared towards memorization throughout the

educational system. Unless you want to change the nature of public

education, we have to work with the students where they are at.

>

> Before we jump to conclusions, how do we know whether or not the

> amount of material we expect right now is at the level of the greater

> amount in the study. In my experience, there are students in our

> programs who do very well with the amount of material.

 

the study mentions the common fallacy that because a certain % of students

do well with the current program, those who do marginally just can't cut it.

the

burden is on them to get their act together, not for the teacher to

accommodate different learning needs of adult learners. Unless you want to

expel students who don't meet your criteria for learning methods, you have to

contend with the fact that they will be out there practicing one day. why

stubbornly cling to a standard that is inadequate for most students just

because some thrive.

 

I would offer that those of us who teach are probably like the students who

thrive on information density and we should be careful not to project our own

learning style on our students. the fact is that most students in other fields

studied fall into the group that DOES NOT thrive on information density. this

ranges from western medicine to anthropology. If you are suggesting that

students in the TCM field on more likely to thrive on information density than

med students, I would be quite surprised. I find many students to be very anti-

academic (all that matters is experience and practice they say!!!), so it would

follow that active learning with low information density would be EVEN MORE

essential in our field than fields that attract more academic types.

 

As an aside, other articles I am reading describe the very predictable

resistance to these methods and model. and the resistances are picked apart

with logic and data.

 

for more on this, see teaching tips by wilbert McKeachie (a textbook) and

Influencing postsecondary students motivation to learn (dawson hancock - a

journal article, sorry no citation , but the article is extensively referenced).

a

few more later.

 

[Guest guest]

Rory Kerr wrote:

 

> One thing we can apparently agree on: that Chinese students of TCM are

> on average better trained than American students. Can we not conclude

> therefore that we should emulate the Chinese model, which, if

> anything, has greater content, not less.

 

That would also require an affiliate hospital, etc... something that we

don't have for the most part in the USA.

 

Pesonally, I fully support Todd's initial post on this thread. Less IS

more. Deeper IS better than wider.

 

I tell my students to have as a goal that they should know which

category of herb every herb belongs to by the time they finish their

formula classes (that's toward the end of the program). That is a

reasonable goal and one that can set one up nicely for the state board

where they can memorize as is needed.

 

I only deal with generalities within a category i.e. diaphoretics tend

to be pungent and enter the lungs. This limits the amount of

memorization greatly and allows for deeper penetration of the information.

 

I do agree that there are a few students who are very comfortable with

memorizing as much info as they can. However many (more than 50%?) of

the students at ECTOM are working adults, as was I while a student,

Being forced to memorize & regurgitate was something I really resented.

What a royal waste of time!

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

I don't know if workaholism is a good model for any educational

institution. While there is much to be learned from the Chinese model

of education, a 7 day week, 8 hours a day is not ideal. Students need

to have a personal life as well.

 

I think we need to emphasize the lifestyle aspects of Chinese medicine

more. Diet, calisthenics, self-care. Studying the classics to

inspire, rather than just data on points and herbs.

 

 

On Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 09:43 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

 

> One thing we can apparently agree on: that Chinese students of TCM are

> on average better trained than American students. Can we not conclude

> therefore that we should emulate the Chinese model, which, if

> anything, has greater content, not less.

>

> Rory

[Guest guest]

At 6:09 PM +0000 3/6/03, wrote:

>the study mentions the common fallacy that because a certain % of students

>do well with the current program, those who do marginally just can't

>cut it. the burden is on them to get their act together, not for

>the teacher to

>accommodate different learning needs of adult learners. Unless you want to

>expel students who don't meet your criteria for learning methods, you have to

>contend with the fact that they will be out there practicing one day. why

>stubbornly cling to a standard that is inadequate for most students just

>because some thrive.

--

 

I don't think I know of a case of expulsion for poor academic

performance at the colleges I've taught at, although it's possible

there have been. Usually what happens is that students who are having

difficulties get peer tutoring, and/or cut their credit load and take

that program at an easier pace. That solution also helps increase

grades and retention.

 

So, although I agree that it's a fallacy to base standards on what

the top 10% of students are capable of, it is equally a fallacy to

conclude that the only solution to increase educational outcomes is

to reduce course content.

 

BTW, does your reference give any guidance as to how to judge optimum

levels of course content? That would be very interesting, and helpful

in designing syllabi.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

At 6:09 PM +0000 3/6/03, wrote:

>I would offer that those of us who teach are probably like the students who

>thrive on information density and we should be careful not to project our own

>learning style on our students.

--

 

For the record, I'm not one who thrives on information density, and I

don't consider myself a good student, if that is judged by good study

habits and the ability to easily memorize large volumes of

information. Nevertheless, I was able to do well enough at TCM

college. That's why I'm questioning whether what we require of our

students really needs to be reduced.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

At 10:12 AM -0800 3/6/03, Al Stone wrote:

>I tell my students to have as a goal that they should know which

>category of herb every herb belongs to by the time they finish their

>formula classes (that's toward the end of the program). That is a

>reasonable goal and one that can set one up nicely for the state board

>where they can memorize as is needed.

>

>I only deal with generalities within a category i.e. diaphoretics tend

>to be pungent and enter the lungs. This limits the amount of

>memorization greatly and allows for deeper penetration of the information.

--

 

Al,

 

Could you give us an example of " deeper penetration of information "

in the context of your materia medica class?

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

I would offer that those of us who teach are probably like the students who thrive on information density and we should be careful not to project our own learning style on our students.

>>>It took me many years to learn this. My courses are often criticized as having too much information.Lately I have shifted to teach principles (and ways of thinking) not as much detail, and people seem to learn much more. Much detail can be filled-in with time and need. If one is taught to think and problem solve then I think one is better armed for the many years of needed study.As TCM practitioner we do not need to function during internships were we stay up for 36 hours and have to know information without thinking.Memorizing texts does not make sense to me.

Alon

[Guest guest]

I like to teach in this way (principles and modes of thinking, focusing

on patterns), and agree that it is easier to learn when data is not

over-emphasized. I have often been criticized for this approach.

Learning to think and problem solve is of supreme importance. However,

it does depend on the subject. Single herb classes are of necessity

more data intensive then (Chinese) internal medicine classes, which are

more dependent on theory and problem-solving techniques.

 

 

On Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 11:51 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> >>>It took me many years to learn this. My courses are often

> criticized as having too much information.Lately I have shifted to

> teach principles (and ways of thinking) not as much detail, and people

> seem to learn much more. Much detail can be filled-in with time and

> need. If one is taught to think and problem solve then I think one is

> better armed for the many years of needed study.As TCM practitioner we

> do not need to function during internships were we stay up for 36

> hours and have to know information without thinking.Memorizing texts

> does not make sense to me.

> Alon

[Guest guest]

Rory Kerr wrote:

 

> Al,

>

> Could you give us an example of " deeper penetration of information "

> in the context of your materia medica class?

 

I remember in my pharmacopia class (in this case, just one quarter out

of four), we were given a hand-out on every herb. What this teacher had

done was go through every text book he had on herbs and pulled out every

shred of information that applied to any given herb. It was a MASSIVE

amount of information that would benefit an archivist with a lot of time

on his or her hands, but really slowed down my educational process as a student.

 

He had references from the usual suspects such as Bensky/Barolet, Yeung,

and other CA state board required texts, but he also added Darmananda,

Bong Dal Kim, and others. While this might be an attractive resource for

some of the infomaniacs on this list, it caused never ending frustration

in my own mind. The ONE thing that I remember from this class was that

there was an herb that somehow performed two opposing functions. As he

explained this herb, he referred to it as " a little bit country and a

little bit rock " . That stuck with me, but little else. : )

 

In my intro-to-herbs class, I focus on herbs that " explain well " . For

instance, I like Du Huo because it addresses wind with its pungent

flavor, cold with its warmth, and dampness with its bitter flavor. It

enters the Kidney and UB channels to address Bi pain from wind-damp-cold

in the lower back, the home of the kidneys, and the legs as they are

transversed by the UB channel.

 

Based on this understanding that most wind-damp-cold Bi pain herbs will

have one or more of these properties allows the students to learn an

entire category of herbs based on these limited parameters. The actions

of the properties are repeated over and over and over again. Pungent

disperses wind and activates Qi movement. Bitter dries. Warm addresses

cold. Over and over and over. This way, when a student is confronted

with attempting to memorize an entire category of herbs in their four

pharmacopia classes, they have a template to begin with. An assumption

to apply to all wind-damp-cold bi addressing herbs. Of course the

category is full of exceptions, but its something to hang your hat on,

it requires less memorization when you have generalities to work with.

 

As for the " deeper understanding " I like to go into metaphors. One of

my clinic supervisors spent a lot of time with me on this, how the

cultural knowledge of an herb helps to explain its action. So, when I

know these things, I teach them.

 

An example: Ge Jie is used for when the Kidneys are unable to grasp the

Qi. I can teach that it is neutral, salty, and enters the Lungs and

Kidneys. It is used for cough due to a deficiency of the Lungs and/or

Kidney. Perhaps I'll even draw a line from the fact that it enters the

Lung and Kidneys and say this is why it helps to grasp the De Qi.

 

But if I can go deeper, the students will retain it better. By deeper,

I should perhaps translate that to " right brain. " I remind them that the

Metal element is associated with the activity of harvest while the Water

element is about storage. The Lungs harvest the Qi while the Kidneys

store it. But wait... there's more.

 

Ge Jie (Gecko) is a unique animal in its own right. It is a nocturnal

lizard. This is kind of strange since reptiles are cold-blooded and

require the sun to generate their metabolic activities. So, this animal

can absorb (Metal phase) and store (Water phase) Yang energy to be used

at night. This animal performs the same function in the wild as it does

in a decoction, it assists in the harvesting and storage of Qi (and

presumably Yang).

 

The tail is an important part of this medicinal herb. The tail is an

extension of the Du Mai, the meridian that serves as a reservoir of Yang

energy, or the " sea of Yang " as it is sometimes called. For this

reason, the spine and tail are the most medically important parts of

this herb and should the tail be missing if you purchase the raw herb,

you shouldn't accept it till the pharmacist can offer one with the tail

intact. It is the potency of the Du Mai in this herb that assists its

secondary function of tonifying the Yang, and by extension the Jing and

Blood. Remember that statement of fact which I'm sure I'm about to

botch: " Use animals to treat the animal " . Which is saying that many Jing

tonics are of animal origin.

 

Finally, I went down to Chinatown and picked up the biggest most

beutiful Gecko-on-a-stick I could find. It makes for a great lecture

when I pull that herb out of my bag. I like to parade around with it

like a religious icon, but that's just me. : )

 

So, here is some right brain explanation for the left brain items to

memorize. Now you've got something to hang all those properties and

functions on to, the image of a nocturnal reptile. Much less to memorize

when the understanding gets in deep through the right brain.

 

As a disclaimer, which I also provide in class, I will add that this

info about the nocturnal status of the Gecko was pulled out of an

encyclopedia and may not actually have any baring on the medicinal

action of the herb. This is classic " making stuff up " but if you provide

a few questions on Ge Jie on the fourth year comprehensive exam at

ECTOM, I'll bet that the students who went through my intro course in

particular would not have any problem with recalling that Ge Jie is for

Lung/Kidney Qi induced asthma and coughing.

 

There are other times in which the right brain information that I can

provide is in fact from sources outside of my overly active imagination.

Dr. Yang told me once that the reason so many of the herbs that come

from the Mulberry tree (sang bai pi, sang shen, sang ji sheng, etc...)

enter the lungs is because of the fact that the silkworm was observed to

be consuming the leaves of this tree and putting out silk which is a

metallic looking substance. Hence it was assumed that the nature of this

tree is Metal.

 

This stuff doesn't have to be memorized, it is living breathing

information that only needs to be understood. It made my life as a

student easier, and I hope to provide my students as many of these

mnemonics as possible.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

I don't know if workaholism is a good model for any educational institution. While there is much to be learned from the Chinese model of education, a 7 day week, 8 hours a day is not ideal. Students need to have a personal life as well.I think we need to emphasize the lifestyle aspects of Chinese medicine more. Diet, calisthenics, self-care. Studying the classics to inspire, rather than just data on points and herbs.

 

Thanks, Z'ev. This is my favorite post on the subject. It took me a year to physically recover from my time in medical school so that I could go on to study in graduate school. My health and studies since about 1988 have been improving day by day and year by year according to your prescription above.

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

Rory -

 

My intention was to say six days a week eight hours a day - my bad for

misinforming. However, I am certainly not suggesting less information. Rather I

am citing adult educational models that optimalize learning. The question is:

what is best for a given time frame? I think we are rapidly moving towards the

statement in this conversation that 'the current standards are insufficient and

that they do not provide sufficient time for all the core competencies to be

achieved.' this is especially true if we cite translational skills as a core

competency - an issue for which the jury is still out. For that matter, the

evidence isn't even in - only opine.

 

Will

 

 

> There are many other factors that affect learning in China such as the

immersion of training 8 hours a day 7 days a week for four years. The gross

inequity of training time alone renders it an issue of 'apples and oranges'.

>

> What Todd expresses here has long been my opinion (since 1986) on adult

learning in America. In recent years, Harvard, USC, and UCLA have been coming to

similar conclusions as they evolve problem based learning systems for basic as

well as clinical sciences. There is a growing body of evidence that cramming the

material into the time allotted generates lower outcomes than creating

meaningful learning experiences.

> --

> Of course, but I was suggesting that what we are requiring may not qualify as

cramming, according to the criteria in these studies. What qualifies as cramming

for a person entering a TCM program with a 2.5 gpa from junior college may be a

breeze for someone with a 3.5 gpa and a degree from a university. We can't

conclude that we should reduce course content without considering these factors.

>

>

> Even if we do conclude that we are cramming, we would still not be able to say

that the answer is to reduce course content. For example, does the research

indicate the effect of reducing a three semester year to a two semester year, or

not allowing full time students to do part time jobs? These may

>

>

> One thing we can apparently agree on: that Chinese students of TCM are on

average better trained than American students. Can we not conclude therefore

that we should emulate the

> Chinese model, which, if anything, has greater content, not less.

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

However, I am certainly not suggesting less information. Rather I am citing

adult educational models that optimalize learning.

 

Will, rory, et. al.

 

i was talking about the amountof information,not just the style of teaching.

the

controlled studies I quoted (which I will cite this weekend) were about

information density as mcu as teching style. teach less, retain more. I am not

saying this is right, but there are controlled studies and this is the consensus

opinion of those who study doctoral level education and is the model being

used in western med schools like Jonhs hopkins for over a decade with great

success I hear.

 

Here's a question. we want the public and other professionals to respect us

as the subject matter experts in TCM, especially when we achieve the

doctoral level. We need to start listening to the subject matter experts in

education and admit that knowing TCM is not the same thing as knowing how

to teach. If we value controlled research, perhaps that will sway some.

citations to come.

 

[Guest guest]

I think it would be quite confusing, considering the lack of a

translation standard in the authors you mention. You would have to

learn not only different and sometimes conflicting information, but

differing translations and terminology for each subset.

 

 

On Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 01:25 PM, Al Stone wrote:

 

> He had references from the usual suspects such as Bensky/Barolet,

> Yeung,

> and other CA state board required texts, but he also added Darmananda,

> Bong Dal Kim, and others. While this might be an attractive resource

> for

> some of the infomaniacs on this list, it caused never ending

> frustration

> in my own mind. The ONE thing that I remember from this class was that

> there was an herb that somehow performed two opposing functions. As he

> explained this herb, he referred to it as " a little bit country and a

> little bit rock " . That stuck with me, but little else. : )

[Guest guest]

I agree - it was terribly frustrating to have to listen to some

classmates constantly complain about the load of coursework when you're

always asking for more. Some of the less motivated students tended to

be the ones that went to a junior college 20 years ago and went and made

their money and basically learned TCM 'for fun'.. as opposed to the

recent university graduates who were trying to make a livelyhood for

themselves and going $80k into student loan debt. It was very different

from university, where competition keeps most everyone studying hard. I

tend to think that the pass/fail system doesn't push people enough who

are motivated by getting good grades. Why bother studying hard when

100% or 65% will pass you on a test?

 

I became friends with several of my teachers from China and heard many

complaints about 'american students' interupting class, not working

hard, complaining about tests, homework, etc etc. The teachers couldn't

do anything about it (flunk students) since the schools were running on

such thin margins and had to make the tuition to keep the school afloat.

I would just tell them that the students in these schools were not

typical of other students in higher level education. I don't know what

the status of other schools is like, but if you have to take anybody

just to stay afloat, you're not going to be likely to get the best

students. I always thought you have to market your school, develop the

profession's future to create opportunites for acupuncturists, creating

a demand for education, increase applications, then pick and choose your

students.

 

> __________

>

> Message: 9

> Thu, 06 Mar 2003 12:43:44 -0500

> Rory Kerr <rorykerr

> Re: information overload

>

> At 9:54 AM -0500 3/6/03, WMorris116 wrote:

> >There are many other factors that affect learning in China such as

> >the immersion of training 8 hours a day 7 days a week for four

> >years. The gross inequity of training time alone renders it an issue

> >of 'apples and oranges'.

> >

> >What Todd expresses here has long been my opinion (since 1986) on

> >adult learning in America. In recent years, Harvard, USC, and UCLA

> >have been coming to similar conclusions as they evolve problem based

> >learning systems for basic as well as clinical sciences. There is a

> >growing body of evidence that cramming the material into the time

> >allotted generates lower outcomes than creating meaningful learning

> >experiences.

> --

> Of course, but I was suggesting that what we are requiring may not

> qualify as cramming, according to the criteria in these studies. What

> qualifies as cramming for a person entering a TCM program with a 2.5

> gpa from junior college may be a breeze for someone with a 3.5 gpa

> and a degree from a university. We can't conclude that we should

> reduce course content without considering these factors.

[Guest guest]

and heard manycomplaints about 'american students' interupting class, not workinghard, complaining about tests, homework, etc etc.

>>>At the same time when I went to school I could not stand how little new information was given every day (at least for me) and complained about too much repetition etc (granted it was the second year of ACTCM. The teachers complained that I and a few other students did not just sit down and except what was given.This was often put forward as lack of respect to the Chinese way of doing things. In our days there was much of a yes master mentality in the class

Alon

[Guest guest]

 

The studies you cite (as far as I can tell) are not at all

suggesting that students should be resoposible for less information.

As Will pointed out, the studies show that optimal learning in the

classroom is more interactve and less dense lecture oriented. That's

all. The sum total of what the student is responsible for learning

remains the same , just different styles of teaching and learning to

get there.

My style of teaching Materia Medica is much like Al's and retention

levels are pretty high from the class, but the amount of work the

student does on their own is 8 to 12 hours a week.I only provide

them with a template.

Warren

> , WMorris116@A... wrote:

> However, I am certainly not suggesting less information. Rather I

am citing

> adult educational models that optimalize learning.

>

> Will, rory, et. al.

>

> i was talking about the amountof information,not just the style of

teaching. the

> controlled studies I quoted (which I will cite this weekend) were

about

> information density as mcu as teching style. teach less, retain

more. I am not

> saying this is right, but there are controlled studies and this is

the consensus

> opinion of those who study doctoral level education and is the

model being

> used in western med schools like Jonhs hopkins for over a decade

with great

> success I hear.

>

> Here's a question. we want the public and other professionals to

respect us

> as the subject matter experts in TCM, especially when we achieve

the

> doctoral level. We need to start listening to the subject matter

experts in

> education and admit that knowing TCM is not the same thing as

knowing how

> to teach. If we value controlled research, perhaps that will sway

some.

> citations to come.

>

 

[Guest guest]

, " wsheir " <wsheir@a...>

wrote:

As Will pointed out, the studies show that optimal learning in the

> classroom is more interactve and less dense lecture oriented.

 

so you suggest the meaning of these studies is the lectures are less dense,

but the required material remains the same? it is just learned by the student

on their own. I talked with our dean and I do not think this this is take home

message. I think the total required information is less. But I may be wrong.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Don't you think there is enough 'dumbing down " already in TCM

schools? I do. Learning herbs is very much like learning a new

language. To become adept at it it takes time and a great deal of

memorization. Most of the students in my class spend a minimum of

eight hours a week studying. I know this because they tell me.And

they don't complain.There is no information overload, just

discovering new and effective ways of learning, studying and

memorizing.

Warren

> the standard expectation in college level classes is 2 hours of

study per 1

> hour of lecture. In reality, 1 hour of study per hour of class is

more typical. I

> agree that you need more hours to reach the level of knowledge you

are

> talking about. but what is actually necessary for effective

general practice and

> how is it best imparted? I think your quote above is very

telling. It implies that

> the students who don't (i.e. are often unable to) spend 12 hours

per week on

> herbs are out of luck. they won't learn the material. Since only

a small

> minority of students spend 8-12 hours per week on herbs, this seems

> counterproductive. It would seem more effective to design methods

of

> instruction that produce better outcomes for he majority of

students, not only

> for the most diligent (which often refers to those with the least

outside

> commitments) .

>

> todd

>