Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 I do think there is a difference between liver qi yu and qi yu. To me, liver qi yu is both a subset of qi yu and a possible cause of other types of qi yu. One depression leads to another...I do think it is important for students and practitioners to keep in mind that not all qi yu is liver qi yu, and that there are herbs that regulate qi differently. For example, chai hu tends to move up and out, while xiang fu moves sideways. This makes xiang fu more appropriate for liver-spleen disharmony, because the liver and spleen are level with one another. Chai hu is more appropriate for liver depression qi yu because it works well on the depression aspect. This according to Qin Bo-Wei, whose opinion I value immensely. I have a point/question. Xiao Chai Hu Tang and Xiao Yao San are both good for liver-spleen disharmony and shaoyang syndrome. But the pulse for Xiao Chai Hu Tang is "wiry" and the pulse for Xiao Yao San is deficient, according to Bensky. Most practitioners and students seem to think of Xiao Yao San for excess/replete cases. I contend that liver-spleen cases with tense, stronger pulses are better served with Xiao Chai Hu Tang and its variations, and cases with weaker, though perhaps still tense, pulses are better served with Xiao Yao San and its variations. I do not think an excess pulse should get Xiao Yao San, in general. What do you think? Joseph Garner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 I tell students that liver qi constraint (gan qi yu) is not the same as qi stagnation (qi zhi). as I understand it, qi stagnation is more generalized from a wide range of causes and liver qi constraint is more specific caused by usually emotional excesses or frustrations. that this is a clinically relevant distinction because many herbs that treat more generalized qi stagnation do not treat liver qi constraint (such as chen pi) and some that treat liver qi constraint do not have more generalized effects in treating qi stagnation (such as chai hu). A student asked whether liver qi constraint is a type of qi stagnation, which I soon discovered is a tricky question. On one hand, liver qi constraint can lead to qi stagnation in various parts of the body. So from that perspective, it is a cause. can the cause of something be the subset of something as well. Do you think of liver qi constraint as a type of qi stagnation? The pattern of liver qi constraint presents with hypochondriac pain as a keynote symptom. the nature of the pain is qi stagnation type pain (dull distending). So that would seem to qualify it as a type of qi stagnation. An interesting conundrum for beginners to wrap their heads around. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Alon, Can you please distinguish signs/symptoms between liver stagnation and liver qi stagnation? Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 This makes xiang fu more appropriate for liver-spleen disharmony, because the liver and spleen are level with one another. Chai hu is more appropriate for liver depression qi yu because it works well on the depression aspect. >>>>I agree and that is why in my days (terms/langue) we used to have three categories. Liv stagnation, liver qi stagnation and qi stagnation alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 liver stagnation and liver qi stagnation >>>Liver qi stagnation was used to describe liver moving sideways attacking earth with liver related symptom and signs. Qi stagnation was used for pain or other discomfort that is felt as bloating/distention anywhere, including chest and abdomen. Also used for "swellings"without form, changing or subjective. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 I was taught that Qi Zhi is Qi stagnation and Xue Yu is Blood stagnation. I've seen many terms for Liver Qi Stagnation in english, of which I don't know what the source is in Chinese (Liver Qi Constraint, Liver Qi Stagnation, Liver Qi Depression, my favorite, Porkert's " Hepatic somethingorother Repletion " ). Geoff > __________ > > Message: 5 > Fri, 7 Mar 2003 12:54:57 -0800 > < > stagnation versus constraint > > I tell students that liver qi constraint (gan qi yu) is not > the same as qi > stagnation (qi zhi). as I understand it, qi stagnation is more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 I feel Liver Qi Constraint is liken to the Army general whose troops (Qi) are massed ready and anxious to be deployed. But the emperor is still debating. Liver Qi Stagnation is where the army (Qi) is bogged down somewhere. While supplies continue to be moved forward to the army, the army is unable or unwilling to move forward. Ed Kasper Santa Cruz, CA Message: 5 Fri, 7 Mar 2003 12:54:57 -0800 < stagnation versus constraint I tell students that liver qi constraint (gan qi yu) is not the same as qi stagnation (qi zhi). as I understand it, qi stagnation is more generalized from a wide range of causes and liver qi constraint is more specific caused by usually emotional excesses or frustrations. that this is a clinically relevant distinction because many herbs that treat more generalized qi stagnation do not treat liver qi constraint (such as chen pi) and some that treat liver qi constraint do not have more generalized effects in treating qi stagnation (such as chai hu). A student asked whether liver qi constraint is a type of qi stagnation, which I soon discovered is a tricky question. On one hand, liver qi constraint can lead to qi stagnation in various parts of the body. So from that perspective, it is a cause. can the cause of something be the subset of something as well. Do you think of liver qi constraint as a type of qi stagnation? The pattern of liver qi constraint presents with hypochondriac pain as a keynote symptom. the nature of the pain is qi stagnation type pain (dull distending). So that would seem to qualify it as a type of qi stagnation. An interesting conundrum for beginners to wrap their heads around. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release 2/25/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Alon, Thank you. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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