Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Yes A speaker said at PCOM 2 years ago that cold bitter herbs may cause antibiotic resistant bacteria just like antibiotics. and that it is arrogant of us to look down our nose at indiscriminate use of antibiotics and then mimic the mistake in TCM with cold bitters. that this may be a cause of latent heat. while I agree that cold bitter are often prescribed erroneously, research has shown that bitter cold herbs like goldenseal DO NOT cause antibiotic resistance. this is because antibiotic resistance can only occur when bacteria are exposed to a large concentration of a single antibiotic chemical. since herbs exert their antibiotic effects with low concentrations of multiple chemicals, some of which are antimicrobial, others of which are antiinflammatory, immunostimulating, etc., resistance does not occur. If one mechanism in goldenseal does not inhibit the bacteria, then another will. If ampicillin fails, there is nothing to back it up. Plus the antibiotic effects of cold bitters are not near as complete as antibiotics in wiping out normal flora. so whatever the reason for cold bitters causing latent heat or spleen xu, I do not think antibiotic resistance or damage to microflora is a major factor. this is one of the pitfalls of western analysis of herbs to predict side effects. while pharmacology of the herbs points us down an apparently logical path at times, we may end up in the wrong place if we are careful. Huang Qin has been shown to enhance antibiotic efficacy in the face of resistance: Liu IX, Durham DG, Richards RM. Baicalin synergywith beta-lactam antibiotics against methicillin-resistant Staphylococcusaureus and other beta-lactam-resistant strains of S. aureus. <istyle='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>J Pharm Pharmacol. Mar2000;52(3):361-366. Bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a serious global problem and includes strains of beta-lactam-resistant Staphylococcus aureus and methicillin-resistant S. aureus (MRSA). Novel antimicrobials and/or new approaches to combat the problem are urgently needed. The Chinese herb Xi-nan Huangqin (Scutellaria amoena C.H. Wright) has been used in traditional Chinese medicine to treat a wide range of infectious diseases. In this study we have examined the antibacterial action of baicalin, a flavone isolated from the herb. When combined with 16 microg mL(-1) baicalin, minimum inhibitory concentrations (MICs) of benzylpenicillin against MRSA and penicillin-resistant S. aureus were reduced from 125 and 250 microg mL(-1) to 4 and 16 microg mL(-1), respectively. This activity of baicalin was dose-dependent. Viable counts showed that the killing of MRSA and beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus cells by 10 to 50 microg mL(-1) ampicillin, amoxycillin, benzylpenicillin, methicillin and cefotaxime was potentiated by 25 microg mL(-1) baicalin. From the study it was concluded that baicalin has the potential to restore the effectiveness of beta-lactam antibiotics against MRSA and other strains of beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus. In view of its limited toxicity baicalin offers potential for the development of a valuable adjunct to beta-lactam treatments against otherwise resistant strains of microorganisms. Will Morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Will, Your document is a good support for Todd's thesis, but the author is not making a claim for enhancement of antibiotic action. The claim is for synergy and for the baicalin flavone to be used as an adjunct. As an adjunct, Huang Qin (or formulas containing Huang Qin) could be used "instead" of antibiotics. So the document you offered strongly supports Todd's rebuttal to cold bitter herbs causing antibiotic resistance. Well done! Emmanuel Segmen "From the study it was concluded that baicalin has the potential to restore the effectiveness of beta-lactam antibiotics against MRSA and other strains of beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus. In view of its limited toxicity baicalin offers potential for the development of a valuable adjunct to beta-lactam treatments against otherwise resistant strains of microorganisms. " Emmanula you are right - I praphrased 'adjunct' as 'enhanced', I made this decision based on the evidence that baicalin restores the effectiveness of beta-lactam antibiotics. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Jason - Baicalin as an active ingredient of huang qin appears to enhance antibiotic efficacy. I often use a form of xiao chai hu tang that is baicalin enhanced. As an aside, I regularly switch out plants for draining damp heat such as oregon grape root, and goldenseal with the 'huangs' of TCM on the basis of berberine content. Members of the list have been around on this issue of plant constituents before. While your argument is valid, it may obscure useful research analysis for the development of clinical strategies. The bottom line will be in vivo clinical outcomes. Will I do not see your above statement being supported by the below study. There is still a big difference between huang qin and the isolated flavone baicalin. Unless I am missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Ron Teegarden - dragonherbs.com >>Where do you get it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 A speaker said at PCOM 2 years ago that cold bitter herbs may cause antibiotic resistant bacteria just like antibiotics. and that it is arrogant of us to look down our nose at indiscriminate use of antibiotics and then mimic the mistake in TCM with cold bitters. that this may be a cause of latent heat. while I agree that cold bitter are often prescribed erroneously, research has shown that bitter cold herbs like goldenseal DO NOT cause antibiotic resistance. this is because antibiotic resistance can only occur when bacteria are exposed to a large concentration of a single antibiotic chemical. since herbs exert their antibiotic effects with low concentrations of multiple chemicals, some of which are antimicrobial, others of which are antiinflammatory, immunostimulating, etc., resistance does not occur. If one mechanism in goldenseal does not inhibit the bacteria, then another will. If ampicillin fails, there is nothing to back it up. Plus the antibiotic effects of cold bitters are not near as complete as antibiotics in wiping out normal flora. so whatever the reason for cold bitters causing latent heat or spleen xu, I do not think antibiotic resistance or damage to microflora is a major factor. this is one of the pitfalls of western analysis of herbs to predict side effects. while pharmacology of the herbs points us down an apparently logical path at times, we may end up in the wrong place if we are careful. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 > > > > Huang Qin has been shown to enhance antibiotic efficacy in the face of > resistance: Will, I do not see your above statement being supported by the below study. There is still a big difference between huang qin and the isolated flavone baicalin. Unless I am missing something? - > > Liu IX, Durham DG, Richards RM. Baicalin synergywith beta-lactam antibiotics > against methicillin-resistant Staphylococcusaureus and other > beta-lactam-resistant strains of S. aureus. < > istyle='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>J Pharm Pharmacol. Mar2000;52(3):361-366. > > Bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a serious global problem and includes > strains of beta-lactam-resistant Staphylococcus aureus and > methicillin-resistant S. aureus (MRSA). Novel antimicrobials and/or new > approaches to combat the problem are urgently needed. The Chinese herb Xi-nan > Huangqin (Scutellaria amoena C.H. Wright) has been used in traditional > Chinese medicine to treat a wide range of infectious diseases. In this study > we have examined the antibacterial action of baicalin, a flavone isolated > from the herb. When combined with 16 microg mL(-1) baicalin, minimum > inhibitory concentrations (MICs) of benzylpenicillin against MRSA and > penicillin-resistant S. aureus were reduced from 125 and 250 microg mL(-1) to > 4 and 16 microg mL(-1), respectively. This activity of baicalin was > dose-dependent. Viable counts showed that the killing of MRSA and > beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus cells by 10 to 50 microg mL(-1) ampicillin, > amoxycillin, benzylpenicillin, methicillin and cefotaxime was potentiated by > 25 microg mL(-1) baicalin. From the study it was concluded that baicalin has > the potential to restore the effectiveness of beta-lactam antibiotics against > MRSA and other strains of beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus. In view of its > limited toxicity baicalin offers potential for the development of a valuable > adjunct to beta-lactam treatments against otherwise resistant strains of > microorganisms. > > > Will Morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Will, Your document is a good support for Todd's thesis, but the author is not making a claim for enhancement of antibiotic action. The claim is for synergy and for the baicalin flavone to be used as an adjunct. As an adjunct, Huang Qin (or formulas containing Huang Qin) could be used "instead" of antibiotics. So the document you offered strongly supports Todd's rebuttal to cold bitter herbs causing antibiotic resistance. Well done! Emmanuel Segmen - WMorris116 Sunday, March 09, 2003 11:23 AM Re: herbs and antibiotic resistance Yes A speaker said at PCOM 2 years ago that cold bitter herbs may cause antibiotic resistant bacteria just like antibiotics. and that it is arrogant of us to look down our nose at indiscriminate use of antibiotics and then mimic the mistake in TCM with cold bitters. that this may be a cause of latent heat. while I agree that cold bitter are often prescribed erroneously, research has shown that bitter cold herbs like goldenseal DO NOT cause antibiotic resistance. this is because antibiotic resistance can only occur when bacteria are exposed to a large concentration of a single antibiotic chemical. since herbs exert their antibiotic effects with low concentrations of multiple chemicals, some of which are antimicrobial, others of which are antiinflammatory, immunostimulating, etc., resistance does not occur. If one mechanism in goldenseal does not inhibit the bacteria, then another will. If ampicillin fails, there is nothing to back it up. Plus the antibiotic effects of cold bitters are not near as complete as antibiotics in wiping out normal flora. so whatever the reason for cold bitters causing latent heat or spleen xu, I do not think antibiotic resistance or damage to microflora is a major factor. this is one of the pitfalls of western analysis of herbs to predict side effects. while pharmacology of the herbs points us down an apparently logical path at times, we may end up in the wrong place if we are careful. Huang Qin has been shown to enhance antibiotic efficacy in the face of resistance: Liu IX, Durham DG, Richards RM. Baicalin synergywith beta-lactam antibiotics against methicillin-resistant Staphylococcusaureus and other beta-lactam-resistant strains of S. aureus. <istyle='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>J Pharm Pharmacol. Mar2000;52(3):361-366. Bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a serious global problem and includes strains of beta-lactam-resistant Staphylococcus aureus and methicillin-resistant S. aureus (MRSA). Novel antimicrobials and/or new approaches to combat the problem are urgently needed. The Chinese herb Xi-nan Huangqin (Scutellaria amoena C.H. Wright) has been used in traditional Chinese medicine to treat a wide range of infectious diseases. In this study we have examined the antibacterial action of baicalin, a flavone isolated from the herb. When combined with 16 microg mL(-1) baicalin, minimum inhibitory concentrations (MICs) of benzylpenicillin against MRSA and penicillin-resistant S. aureus were reduced from 125 and 250 microg mL(-1) to 4 and 16 microg mL(-1), respectively. This activity of baicalin was dose-dependent. Viable counts showed that the killing of MRSA and beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus cells by 10 to 50 microg mL(-1) ampicillin, amoxycillin, benzylpenicillin, methicillin and cefotaxime was potentiated by 25 microg mL(-1) baicalin. From the study it was concluded that baicalin has the potential to restore the effectiveness of beta-lactam antibiotics against MRSA and other strains of beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus. In view of its limited toxicity baicalin offers potential for the development of a valuable adjunct to beta-lactam treatments against otherwise resistant strains of microorganisms. Will Morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 This speaker had no data to back him up, if I remember correctly. It was a false assumption on the speaker's part. It is correct, however, that in the Warm Disease literature, bitter cold medicinals can 'freeze the pathogen' inside, not allowing it to escape (and causing chronic, latent heat). On Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 11:14 AM, wrote: > A speaker said at PCOM 2 years ago that cold bitter herbs may cause > antibiotic resistant bacteria just like antibiotics. and that it is > arrogant of us to look down our nose at indiscriminate use of > antibiotics and then mimic the mistake in TCM with cold bitters. that > this may be a cause of latent heat. while I agree that cold bitter > are often prescribed erroneously, research has shown that bitter cold > herbs like goldenseal DO NOT cause antibiotic resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 DO NOT cause antibiotic resistance. this is because antibiotic resistance can only occur when bacteria are exposed to a large concentration of a single antibiotic chemical. >>>Are you sure about this Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 The bottom line will be in vivo clinical outcomes. >>>Lets not forget that alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 On a smilar thread, I remember reading that chuan xin lian reduced antibiotic resistance in TB. I'm sorry I can't site the source for you. I cna try to hunt it down later. Cara Will, Your document is a good support for Todd's thesis, but the author is not making a claim for enhancement of antibiotic action. The claim is for synergy and for the baicalin flavone to be used as an adjunct. As an adjunct, Huang Qin (or formulas containing Huang Qin) could be used "instead" of antibiotics. So the document you offered strongly supports Todd's rebuttal to cold bitter herbs causing antibiotic resistance. Well done! Emmanuel Segmen - WMorris116 Sunday, March 09, 2003 11:23 AM Re: herbs and antibiotic resistance Yes A speaker said at PCOM 2 years ago that cold bitter herbs may cause antibiotic resistant bacteria just like antibiotics. and that it is arrogant of us to look down our nose at indiscriminate use of antibiotics and then mimic the mistake in TCM with cold bitters. that this may be a cause of latent heat. while I agree that cold bitter are often prescribed erroneously, research has shown that bitter cold herbs like goldenseal DO NOT cause antibiotic resistance. this is because antibiotic resistance can only occur when bacteria are exposed to a large concentration of a single antibiotic chemical. since herbs exert their antibiotic effects with low concentrations of multiple chemicals, some of which are antimicrobial, others of which are antiinflammatory, immunostimulating, etc., resistance does not occur. If one mechanism in goldenseal does not inhibit the bacteria, then another will. If ampicillin fails, there is nothing to back it up. Plus the antibiotic effects of cold bitters are not near as complete as antibiotics in wiping out normal flora. so whatever the reason for cold bitters causing latent heat or spleen xu, I do not think antibiotic resistance or damage to microflora is a major factor. this is one of the pitfalls of western analysis of herbs to predict side effects. while pharmacology of the herbs points us down an apparently logical path at times, we may end up in the wrong place if we are careful. Huang Qin has been shown to enhance antibiotic efficacy in the face of resistance: Liu IX, Durham DG, Richards RM. Baicalin synergywith beta-lactam antibiotics against methicillin-resistant Staphylococcusaureus and other beta-lactam-resistant strains of S. aureus. <istyle='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>J Pharm Pharmacol. Mar2000;52(3):361-366. Bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a serious global problem and includes strains of beta-lactam-resistant Staphylococcus aureus and methicillin-resistant S. aureus (MRSA). Novel antimicrobials and/or new approaches to combat the problem are urgently needed. The Chinese herb Xi-nan Huangqin (Scutellaria amoena C.H. Wright) has been used in traditional Chinese medicine to treat a wide range of infectious diseases. In this study we have examined the antibacterial action of baicalin, a flavone isolated from the herb. When combined with 16 microg mL(-1) baicalin, minimum inhibitory concentrations (MICs) of benzylpenicillin against MRSA and penicillin-resistant S. aureus were reduced from 125 and 250 microg mL(-1) to 4 and 16 microg mL(-1), respectively. This activity of baicalin was dose-dependent. Viable counts showed that the killing of MRSA and beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus cells by 10 to 50 microg mL(-1) ampicillin, amoxycillin, benzylpenicillin, methicillin and cefotaxime was potentiated by 25 microg mL(-1) baicalin. From the study it was concluded that baicalin has the potential to restore the effectiveness of beta-lactam antibiotics against MRSA and other strains of beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus. In view of its limited toxicity baicalin offers potential for the development of a valuable adjunct to beta-lactam treatments against otherwise resistant strains of microorganisms. Will Morris Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Will, Your document is a good support for Todd's thesis, but the author is not making a claim for enhancement of antibiotic action. The claim is for synergy and for the baicalin flavone to be used as an adjunct. As an adjunct, Huang Qin (or formulas containing Huang Qin) could be used "instead" of antibiotics. So the document you offered strongly supports Todd's rebuttal to cold bitter herbs causing antibiotic resistance. Well done! Emmanuel Segmen "From the study it was concluded that baicalin has the potential to restore the effectiveness of beta-lactam antibiotics against MRSA and other strains of beta-lactam-resistant S. aureus. In view of its limited toxicity baicalin offers potential for the development of a valuable adjunct to beta-lactam treatments against otherwise resistant strains of microorganisms. " Emmanula you are right - I praphrased 'adjunct' as 'enhanced', I made this decision based on the evidence that baicalin restores the effectiveness of beta-lactam antibiotics. Will Hi Will. After reading your referenced comment I will have to agree with your decision. The author is indeed claiming that Huang Qin's isoflavone changed the effectiveness of the antibiotics. I personally question that aspect of the author's (Liu IX) conclusion "that baicalin has the potential to restore the effectiveness of beta-lactam antibiotics" from what's presented in the abstract. The molecular actions of the antibiotics as well as the molecular resistance of the bacteria have been understood for decades and are a part of our microbiology textbooks. I'll have to read the entire paper, but from the abstract there is no indication that the resistance to antibiotics has been changed by Huang Qin's isoflavone. That is, the isoflavone didn't change the molecular block to the antibiotic. Without any real evidence except knowledge of how the molecular block works, it seems to me more like Huang Qin changed immune function "causing" or "allowing" the body's immune system to complete its work. From the abstract, though, there is no conclusive evidence whether the isoflavone acted on the bacteria's molecular defense or whether it acted globally to stimulate immune function. I'll have to read the whole paper to see if Liu had some clever way of addressing this. Thanks for making me look at this again. One thing is for sure. The bacteria took a mere few decades to develop widespread resistance to antibiotics. They can develop resistance within one person in a few days if that person starts and stops an antibiotic regime before completion. Huang Qin has been in use for centuries and has not apparently caused widespread resistance. Thanks again for your presentation. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Emmanual, You make a good point about the evidence in the abstract. I have used herbs in conjunction with antibiotics since 1981 and have found they do tend to enhance outcomes and reduce side effects, especially related to gut function (when prescribed according to pattern). Thanks for your input. Will From the abstract, though, there is no conclusive evidence whether the isoflavone acted on the bacteria's molecular defense or whether it acted globally to stimulate immune function. I'll have to read the whole paper to see if Liu had some clever way of addressing this. Thanks for making me look at this again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 , WMorris116@A... wrote: > You make a good point about the evidence in the abstract. I have used herbs in conjunction with antibiotics since 1981 and have found they do tend to enhance outcomes and reduce side effects, especially related to gut function (when prescribed according to pattern). >>> Long link! http://story.news./news? tmpl=story & ncid=97 & e=4 & cid=97 & u=/hsn/20030310/hl_hsn/antibiotic_resis tance_on_the_rise " The patterns of antibiotic use and misuse in this country have led to increasing resistance and these data suggest that the more use and misuse there is, the more resistance you'll have in your local area, " says study author Marc Lipsitch, an assistant professor of epidemiology at the Harvard School of Public Health. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 wrote: > > This speaker had no data to back him up, if I remember correctly. It > was a false assumption on the speaker's part. It is correct, however, > that in the Warm Disease literature, bitter cold medicinals can 'freeze > the pathogen' inside, not allowing it to escape (and causing chronic, > latent heat). That is why, according to Yifan Yang, that we use pungent medicinals along with bitter-cold herbs to address internal heat. The pungency disperses the heat, while the cold and /or bitter natured herbs can clear/remove/make-it-go-away. I think about Shi Gao this way. Pungent and cold. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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