Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 As some of you know I consider diet to be the main factor in maintaining good health and it bears directly on our practice of herbology as to what we recommend to our patients. I am especially concerned about indiscriminate recommendations to patients to " eat meat " . chinese doctors especially often give this advice to their blood xu female american patients. and many of us have adopted this line, secretly relieved that we can now eat meat again after years of vegetarianism. Now I think it is clear that animal products are more potent sources of blood and yin than plants. they are also more likely to produce damp and phlegm. I think most people benefit from small amounts of carefully chosen animal products in the diet. And I do not think any amount of commercial meat fits this bill. Here's why: commercial animals fed grain and rendered animal products have a fat composition that is quite different from animals raised on pasture. Grass eating animals have lower saturated fat and higher good poly omegas. corn eating animals have higher levels of bad omegas. so even if your organic cow was raised on organic corn and not pasture, the fat composition is still off. the fat composition in 100% grain fed animals is pro-inflammatory and the fat composition in mostly pasture fed animals is anti-inflammatory. Though I don't purport a one to one correlation, I would suggest that when one eats pro-inflammatory foods, one is more likely to develop dampheat signs than if one eats anti-inflammatory foods. Historically most animals were mostly pasture fed. So when the chinese talk about the benefits of beef and pork, they are not talking about modern factory cows and pigs, I'd venture. I would suggest that small amounts of lean pasture fed animals or those who have a special diet to encourage healthy fat composition does indeed nourish yin and blood without producing any dampheat. But commercial meat, while it does have some nourishing effect from its protein and minerals, always produces some dampheat regardless of amount or quality, because the nature of much of the fat composition is pathogenic and of no positive nutritional benefit. the same thing is true of hydrogenated fat. so when we advise our vegetarian patients to eat meat, it needs to be qualified. Personally, I do not eat whole foods beef as it is corn fed, but their new zealand beef is pasture fed. trader joes has australian pasture fed beef, too. new zealand lamb is also pasture fed, available at whole foods and trader joes fatty fish is always good as long as not endangered or contaminated with mercury free range chicken is typically no good. free range and even organic chickens still eat mainly corn. same with free range and organic eggs. however high DHA eggs from chicken fed a vegetarian diet that includes high good omega foods like flax. trader joes has cheap high DHA eggs. whole foods has an expensive organic high DHA - best of all worlds. dairy from pasture fed cows is also OK in moderation and all animal products in excess will cause damp, no matter how high quality. If you suffer from any inflammatory condition, you can see remarkable changes very rapidly by eliminating commercial meat, hydrogenated fats and polyunsaturated cooking and salad oils (except for refrigerated hemp and flax). Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 I agree 100% with these recommendations. . . tailored to individual constitutional type. While the Chinese literature has abundant material on dietetics, it hasn't been presented in English in a timely manner to rival Ayurvedic dietary rules for different body types. I am equally concerned, and vehemently opposed to the blanket 'eat meat' recommendations that are prevalent in our field. . . especially after seeing the poor quality of the animal foods that are available.'s recommendations should be universal when giving dietary advice to patients on the quality issues that must be stressed. On Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 01:36 PM, wrote: > As some of you know I consider diet to be the main factor in > maintaining good health and it bears directly on our practice of > herbology as to what we recommend to our patients. I am especially > concerned about indiscriminate recommendations to patients to " eat > meat " . chinese doctors especially often give this advice to their > blood xu female american patients. and many of us have adopted this > line, secretly relieved that we can now eat meat again after years of > vegetarianism. Now I think it is clear that animal products are more > potent sources of blood and yin than plants. they are also more > likely to produce damp and phlegm. I think most people benefit from > small amounts of carefully chosen animal products in the diet. And I > do not think any amount of commercial meat fits this bill. Here's > why: > > commercial animals fed grain and rendered animal products have a fat > composition that is quite different from animals raised on pasture. > Grass eating animals have lower saturated fat and higher good poly > omegas. corn eating animals have higher levels of bad omegas. so > even if your organic cow was raised on organic corn and not pasture, > the fat composition is still off. the fat composition in 100% grain > fed animals is pro-inflammatory and the fat composition in mostly > pasture fed animals is anti-inflammatory. Though I don't purport a > one to one correlation, I would suggest that when one eats > pro-inflammatory foods, one is more likely to develop dampheat signs > than if one eats anti-inflammatory foods. Historically most animals > were mostly pasture fed. So when the chinese talk about the benefits > of beef and pork, they are not talking about modern factory cows and > pigs, I'd venture. > > I would suggest that small amounts of lean pasture fed animals or > those who have a special diet to encourage healthy fat composition > does indeed nourish yin and blood without producing any dampheat. But > commercial meat, while it does have some nourishing effect from its > protein and minerals, always produces some dampheat regardless of > amount or quality, because the nature of much of the fat composition > is pathogenic and of no positive nutritional benefit. the same thing > is true of hydrogenated fat. so when we advise our vegetarian > patients to eat meat, it needs to be qualified. > > Personally, I do not eat whole foods beef as it is corn fed, but their > new zealand beef is pasture fed. > > trader joes has australian pasture fed beef, too. > > new zealand lamb is also pasture fed, available at whole foods and > trader joes > > fatty fish is always good as long as not endangered or contaminated > with mercury > > free range chicken is typically no good. free range and even organic > chickens still eat mainly corn. > > same with free range and organic eggs. however high DHA eggs from > chicken fed a vegetarian diet that includes high good omega foods like > flax. trader joes has cheap high DHA eggs. whole foods has an > expensive organic high DHA - best of all worlds. > > dairy from pasture fed cows is also OK in moderation > > and all animal products in excess will cause damp, no matter how high > quality. > > If you suffer from any inflammatory condition, you can see remarkable > changes very rapidly by eliminating commercial meat, hydrogenated fats > and polyunsaturated cooking and salad oils (except for refrigerated > hemp and flax). > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Isn't olive oil also anti-inflammatory? and are there any oils that can be heated? Cara If you suffer from any inflammatory condition, you can see remarkable changes very rapidly by eliminating commercial meat, hydrogenated fats and polyunsaturated cooking and salad oils (except for refrigerated hemp and flax). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 , herbbabe <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > > Isn't olive oil also anti-inflammatory? and are there any oils that can be heated? > Cara > Olive is monounsaturated, as is canola (which may have other issues, so I don't use it). you can also use hi oleic sunflower and safflower. they are heat stable. It is heated polys, like corn and soy that are major issues. You are right, olive is anti-inflam. However, so is soy. it just goes rancid easy. corn oil is just bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Any one has an opinion on how to view/approach olive oil in Chinese medical terms? does it supplement support protect yin and or blood? Is it cool cold warm hot? any particular combinations (well known or well observed) Marco - herbbabe Monday, March 10, 2003 2:07 AM Re: more about diet Isn't olive oil also anti-inflammatory? and are there any oils that can be heated?CaraIf you suffer from any inflammatory condition, you can see remarkable changes very rapidly by eliminating commercial meat, hydrogenated fats and polyunsaturated cooking and salad oils (except for refrigerated hemp and flax).Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 , " " <@i...> wrote: > Olive is monounsaturated, as is canola (which may have other issues, so I don't use it). you can also use hi oleic sunflower and safflower. they are heat stable. It is heated polys, like corn and soy that are major issues. You are right, olive is anti-inflam. However, so is soy. it just goes rancid easy. corn oil is just bad.>> : There is only one time that I can think of when a " bad " diet is justified: right after radiation for cancer patients. Since radiation dries up yin, mucus, and burns out the mucus membranes, eating junk food can actually be beneficial in helping create mucus production again. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 , " James Ramholz " < jramholz> wrote: > > There is only one time that I can think of when a " bad " diet is > justified: right after radiation for cancer patients. Since > radiation dries up yin, mucus, and burns out the mucus membranes, > eating junk food can actually be beneficial in helping create mucus > production again. I assume you are joking. As I understand it, the normal mucus lining of the gut is a physiological fluid. It is not a pathological fluid and cannot be replaced in its functions with phlegm. To restore the normal mucus lining of the gut, one should eat easily digestible foods that DO NOT produce phlegm, but which the body can use to produce NORMAL fluids. The consumption of phlegm producing foods may provide a coating that relieves irritation in the short term, but at the expense of preventing the proper production and distribution of normal fluids. Guohui Liu taught me that one should never try and restore health with bad foods. If you need to gain weight, you should do it slowly. Same for all convalescent conditions. I would offer that congee (or oatmeal) would best serve the function of soothing the gut and helping to rebuild without causing phlegm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Why not good quality damp/phlegmy foods, like soy milk, tempura, humus, falafel and the like? Why give more carcinogens to the patient? On Monday, March 10, 2003, at 09:49 AM, James Ramholz wrote: > : > > There is only one time that I can think of when a " bad " diet is > justified: right after radiation for cancer patients. Since > radiation dries up yin, mucus, and burns out the mucus membranes, > eating junk food can actually be beneficial in helping create mucus > production again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 , " " <@i...> wrote: > I assume you are joking. >>> No, not really. It is a short-term practical solution for some patients. Keep in mind that it's not done to the exclusion of anything else. Sometimes patients have no appetite and don't want to prepare food. You may have noticed that eating junk food while having a cold or congestion aggrevates the condition because mucus production is increased and creates phlegm. I just thought it was an interesting example of applying everything to CM theory. Like some herbs, you can't use them on a regular basis or when the condition for their use is not manifest. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Why not good quality damp/phlegmy foods, like soy milk, tempura, humus, falafel and the like? Why give more carcinogens to the patient? >> Junk food works more quickly---and doesn't have to be cancerogenic. High caloric food helps stimulate and restore mucus production, if we think of radiation is very drying perverse qi. And, as I mentioned earlier, it is done short-term when the patient has no appetite and is unwilling to eat. It is just an interesting example of applying everything to CM theory. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I thought grapeseed oil was best for cooking(hi heat). Paul Pitchford ( " Healing With Whole Foods " ) has stated that " oleic-rich safflower oil has the properties of a monounsaturated oil which promote balanced cholesterol reduction and relatively slow deterioration. Though it is apparently superior to regular safflower oil, it is still too soon to recommend the oleic variety unconditionally. " Anyway, i rarely see it in appropriate bottles which shut out light. PP doesn't mention grapeseed oil in the 1st edition that i have - maybe his much longer 2nd edition discusses it. Of course, he speaks highly of sesame oil: 46% monounsaturated, rancidity kept in check by " sesamol " , an antioxidant naturally present in the oil. " This discovery concurs with the dietary teachings of ancient India, which rate sesame as one of the most stable of all oils. " Also, " lubricates dryness, working as an emollient when applied to dry and cracked skin; it also relieves constipation from dry stools, if a few drops are added to food during cooking. For faster results in more serious conditions, take one to two tablespoons on an empty stomach to induce bowel movement.(...contraindicated during diarrhea.)...also detoxifies. It destroys ringworm,scabies, and most fungal skin diseases -- apply once daily until the condition is relieved. It is a superior massage oil for sore muscles and the pain of rheumatism/arthritis. " (fingers got carried away...just thought i'd add that.) ann " " < > Olive is monounsaturated, as is canola (which may have other issues, so I > don't use it). you can also use hi oleic sunflower and safflower. they are heat > stable. It is heated polys, like corn and soy that are major issues. You are > right, olive is anti-inflam. However, so is soy. it just goes rancid easy. corn oil > is just bad. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 , <snakeoil.works@m...> wrote: > I thought grapeseed oil was best for cooking(hi heat). > > Paul Pitchford ( " Healing With Whole Foods " ) has stated that " oleic-rich > safflower oil has the properties of a monounsaturated oil which promote > balanced cholesterol reduction and relatively slow deterioration. Though it > is apparently superior to regular safflower oil, it is still too soon to > recommend the oleic variety unconditionally. " > Anyway, i rarely see it in appropriate bottles which shut out light. Paul Pitchford has done an excellent job promoting himself. However I am not impressed with his credentials. He is not an L.Ac. or a nutritionist. As far as I can tell, he is a highly educated layperson. In fact, his bio does not mention any formal nutrition training at all. He appears to have learned his trade on his own and in workshops. He is also extremely biased by his personal zealous veganism and an affinity for raw foods that goes hand in hand with this. I take his positions with a grain of salt. As for dark bottles, monounsaturated oils are light stable and do not require dark bottles. As for sesame, while it is high in monounsaturates, it is also high in polys. Because of the high polys, it actually goes rancid more easily than olive oil, a point that has been made by macrobiotics for decades. If you ever eat tahini or sesame seeds that are bitter, they are rancid. And the majority of commercial sesame seed products are quite bitter. Fresh sesame oil can be cooked with more safely than many oils because of the hi oleics, but its flavor is too strong for any dishes that don't need a sesame flavor. Perhaps the jury is out on the benefits of hi oleic safflower, but the risks of high poly safflower are well known. Basically, one should NEVER eat foods cooked in high poly, low oleic oils. they just cause cancer. raw and refrigerated, they have immense benfits, but nothing one cannot get from eating fresh fish and nuts. Oils are not whole foods and should thus be used sparingly in all cases. for authoritative work on fats, see erasmus udo's site. he actually has a strong background and degrees in western science. of interest, see this myth blaster on canola oil. http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blcanola.htm todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Hi If Pitchford's book doesn't cut the mustard, is there another book out there about diet that is as coprehensive that you suggest? > > Paul Pitchford has done an excellent job promoting > himself. However I am > not impressed with his credentials. He is not an > L.Ac. or a nutritionist. As far > as I can tell, he is a highly educated layperson. > In fact, his bio does not > mention any formal nutrition training at all. He > appears to have learned his > trade on his own and in workshops. He is also > extremely biased by his > personal zealous veganism and an affinity for raw > foods that goes hand in > hand with this. I take his positions with a grain of > salt. > > As for dark bottles, monounsaturated oils are light > stable and do not require > dark bottles. As for sesame, while it is high in > monounsaturates, it is also high > in polys. Because of the high polys, it actually > goes rancid more easily than > olive oil, a point that has been made by > macrobiotics for decades. If you ever > eat tahini or sesame seeds that are bitter, they are > rancid. And the majority of > commercial sesame seed products are quite bitter. > Fresh sesame oil can be > cooked with more safely than many oils because of > the hi oleics, but its flavor > is too strong for any dishes that don't need a > sesame flavor. > > Perhaps the jury is out on the benefits of hi oleic > safflower, but the risks of > high poly safflower are well known. Basically, one > should NEVER eat foods > cooked in high poly, low oleic oils. they just > cause cancer. raw and > refrigerated, they have immense benfits, but nothing > one cannot get from > eating fresh fish and nuts. Oils are not whole > foods and should thus be used > sparingly in all cases. > > for authoritative work on fats, see erasmus udo's > site. he actually has a strong > background and degrees in western science. > > of interest, see this myth blaster on canola oil. > http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blcanola.htm > > todd > > Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 , Bob Linde < bob_and_robin> wrote: > Hi > If Pitchford's book doesn't cut the mustard, is there > another book out there about diet that is as > coprehensive that you suggest? there is no single book that I like. I like the tao of healthy eating by flaws for its angle on TCM diet. I like melvin werbach's work for well supported basic science. udo on fats. Michael murray' s encylcopedia for well researched nutritional protocols. But for up to date scientific based nutrition, you need to just keep up on journal articles via medline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Todd: I read the urban legends piece and if you read page 2 AND 3 the idea that canola oil is unsafe is debunked. The idea that canola oil is unsafe is an urban legend that has been promoted on the internet. Of special interest is the link: http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm? site=http://www.cansa.co.za/facts%5Fmyths%5Fdiet%5Fcanola.asp Warren > of interest, see this myth blaster on canola oil. > http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blcanola.htm > > todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 there is no single book that I like. I like the tao of healthy eating by flaws for its angle on TCM diet. I like melvin werbach's work for well supported basic science. udo on fats. Michael murray' s encylcopedia for well researched nutritional protocols. But for up to date scientific based nutrition, you need to just keep up on journal articles via medline. There is a wonderful book called Recipes for Self Healing by Daverick Leggett. It is Chinese traditional medicine based and is a very good resource for information on Chinese medicine as well as dietary therapies which are easily accessible to clients. It is available through Red Wing. Misha ===== Misha Ruth Cohen, OMD. L.Ac. Clinic Director, Research and Education Chair, Quan Yin Healing Arts Center Research Specialist, UCSF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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