floating pulse

[Guest guest]

which of the following is a true statement about the floating pulse?

 

 

it can be felt in the superficial position

 

it can ONLY be felt in the superficial position

 

it is most forceful or otherwise prominent in the superficial position

 

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre

minds " -- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

Todd - three is most accurate.

The floating pulse is easily felt and more full at the superficial level, and it's force decreases slightly at the deeper level. You can also describe it's sensation more clearly by suggesting technique such as: it is full when lifting and diminished when pressing...however, under such conditions it still has root.

The latter method is used by Shen for evaluating the quality of the blood at the middle depth. In this case of a floating pulse, the lifting method is used to analyze the superficial (qi) depth and the pressing implies exploration of what Shen calls the organ depth (deep).

 

Will Morris

 

it can be felt in the superficial position

 

it can ONLY be felt in the superficial position

 

it is most forceful or otherwise prominent in the superficial position

[Guest guest]

 

I love the Shen/Hammer definition of a floating pulse contained in Hammer's big new pulse book. They break the pulse into three basic depths--qi depth at the top third, blood depth at the middle third and yin organ depth at the bottom third, of the vessel, the radial artery, that is. Their definition of a floating pulse is one that is felt ABOVE the qi level. This can include a pulse that is felt at any other depth or no other depth. This definition greatly simplifies an otherwise ridiculously arbitrary-seeming group of definitions in the literature.

Joseph Garner

[Guest guest]

Joseph -

Hammer's definition has drifted over the years on many qualities. If you use only this definition, you will miss what many mainstream senior practitioners would identify as a floating pulse (including Dr Shen). That is it is dominant in the qi depth, and - Hammer often stated that it has root - I concur unless one is identifying a complex pulse for which floating is part of the description.

During the seven years I co-taught with Leon I observed a significant phenomenon I call 'collective drift.' This is a situation whereby the groups agreement on certain phenomena changes over time. For instance, when I started studying with Leon, the quality 'vibration' was fairly common but by the time his advanced group in DC completed training, the finding became almost ubiquitous - when this occurs the clinical significance of identifying the quality is diminished.

 

Will Morris

 

I love the Shen/Hammer definition of a floating pulse contained in Hammer's big new pulse book. They break the pulse into three basic depths--qi depth at the top third, blood depth at the middle third and yin organ depth at the bottom third, of the vessel, the radial artery, that is. Their definition of a floating pulse is one that is felt ABOVE the qi level. This can include a pulse that is felt at any other depth or no other depth. This definition greatly simplifies an otherwise ridiculously arbitrary-seeming group of definitions in the literature.

Joseph Garner

[Guest guest]

Will,

Thanks. I loved your post. How about this? It seems to me that a pulse at the superficial or qi level would have a different significance from one that is floating above the normal artery depth, that the pathogen/energy would be at a different depth, and so one would diagnose it differently, needle to a different depth, "herbalize" to a different depth. I would call a pulse strong in the superficial level a "superficial" pulse, and one above that a "floating" pulse.

 

As for 'collective drift,' I agree that this happens in the profession, and probably in all professions. I have not yet studied with Hammer et al, but I plan to, and I plan to keep my questioning mind active. I don't agree with Alon's statement that controlled studies are the answer to this and everything, because I don't see how they can always apply to something as subjective as pulse diagnosis, or to acupuncture. At least people like those on this list can keep piping up when we see an emperor with no clothes on.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/03 8:39:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, WMorris116 writes:

 

 

The floating pulse is easily felt and more full at the superficial level, and it's force decreases slightly at the deeper level. You can also describe it's sensation more clearly by suggesting technique such as: it is full when lifting and diminished when pressing...however, under such conditions it still has root.

 

 

Will,

Is the pulse that is ful when lifting and diminished when pressing more of a sign of blood heat than floating?

-Anne

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

- three is most accurate.

 

:

 

I would agree with Will but add one thing. It is based on a slightly

different interpretation of Nan Jing chapter 5 and its use of the

concepts of light and heavy referring not only to the pressure of

the fingers, but also the quality of the wave itself.

 

In the Dong Han tradition, the first thing we have to make clear

about the Floating pulse is that does not mean that a pulse has to

necessarily only be near the surface of the skin in order to be

called Floating. When we use 3-Depths, 9-Sectors, 27-Sectors, or 81-

Sectors per position, the Floating activity can be found in any of

the sectors; so we can have a Floating pulse in the deep layer too.

In this case, for example, it often indicates a deeper or

unexpressed emotion--subconscious or unconscious. When working with

different depths, an expanded definition of the Floating pulse will

include a pulse that has a stronger tendency on the upbeat. In

deeper parts of a position a pulse may also be considered to have a

Floating quality if it has the sensation of buoyancy created by its

upbeat movement and with no sufficient yin in the downbeat.

 

Because a Floating pulse does not have the root, the movement is not

balanced to the down beat and it can feel buoyant even at deeper

sectors, like holding a cork underwater. Keep in mind here that when

we press down to the bottom third depth of a pulse position, we are

creating a fractal dimension of the whole position. The movement is

Floating at the " surface " of this bottom, third depth. So it means

that this wave form, at this depth, is in the emotional part (top

portion of the bottom third). So if the emotional range of a certain

depth contains a Floating pulse, it means that this emotion is

active but does not have enough yin energy or capacity to sustain

itself; so it is an emotion that is transient or related to a past

event, unless the patient's body or mind reinforces or reiterates it.

 

Probably not what you were asking, but none the less, another idea

developed in the 20th century.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, acugrpaz@a... wrote:

> greatly simplifies an otherwise ridiculously arbitrary-seeming

group of definitions in the literature.

 

 

 

Joseph:

 

I think the classical definitions are not so much arbitrary as they

are just simply very basic. It would be like comparing arithmetic to

differential equations.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Anne -

 

"Is the pulse that is full when lifting and diminished when pressing more of a sign of blood heat than floating?"

 

If the pulse is progressively wider at the blood depth and then narrows upon further lifting - it is 'blood heat' (Shen) given further corroborating signs and symptoms (Morris). The floating pulse without root wherein the dominant impulse is in the qi depth is called 'empty' by Hammer....this pulse also gets wider upon lifting - and is floating.

 

Pulses reflecting normal physiology and a wind cold-or-heat attack will be floating and have root. Loss of root typically designates more serious underlying deficiencies - this is not a salient feature of the floating pulse, rather it is part of more complex pulse patterns.

 

Will Morris

[Guest guest]

Jim -

I would agree with Will but add one thing. It is based on a slightly different interpretation of Nan Jing chapter 5 and its use of the concepts of light and heavy referring not only to the pressure of the fingers, but also the quality of the wave itself.

 

 

This is very interesting and a wide-ranging application of Nan Jing Chapter Five primarily because the discussion there is referencing depth. The use of this chapter as a designator for wave interpretation would in my opinion be based more on an analysis of how the wave changes at that depth as a designator for the corresponding tissue/organ.

In the Dong Han tradition, the first thing we have to make clear about the Floating pulse is that does not mean that a pulse has to necessarily only be near the surface of the skin in order to be called Floating. When we use 3-Depths, 9-Sectors, 27-Sectors, or 81-

Sectors per position, the Floating activity can be found in any of the sectors; so we can have a Floating pulse in the deep layer too.

 

I agree with you on this since depth is context dependent. However, if there is a floating pulse at the 'bone depth' - it must be specified as such since at a gross level it is technically a deep pulse and most practitioners will identify the pulse occurring at the bone depth as deep. Your model works in communication if a qualifier is rendered to specify the context such as 'floating at the bone depth.'

 

In this case, for example, it often indicates a deeper or

unexpressed emotion--subconscious or unconscious. When working with different depths, an expanded definition of the Floating pulse will include a pulse that has a stronger tendency on the upbeat. In deeper parts of a position a pulse may also be considered to have a Floating quality if it has the sensation of buoyancy created by its upbeat movement and with no sufficient yin in the downbeat.

 

 

Jim, I would classify "stronger tendency on the upbeat" as a product of force and wave....not depth. The same would be true for "no sufficient yin in the downbeat." It may occur at a particular depth - but I think we must be careful with terms especially when carving out the kind of minute sensorial territory such as the Dong Han system employs. And - I am aware of your efforts with nomenclature, understanding the plight you are engaged in with translation of lineage tradition that is Korean where the teacher may not have the linguistic concerns we have, this has been an issue in my own training with Shen and Hammer.

 

Will Morris

[Guest guest]

I call 'collective drift.' This is a situation whereby the groups agreement on certain phenomena changes over time.

>>>This is a very common phenomenon and another reason for controlled studies.

Alon

[Guest guest]

I call 'collective drift.' This is a situation whereby the groups agreement on certain phenomena changes over time.

>>>This is a very common phenomenon and another reason for controlled studies.

Alon

 

Different interpretation by different generations of scientists over time regarding "controlled studies" or any other historically significant work of science leads to collective drift. There are usually different interpretations in different times and different settings. Pundits often refer to the "current wisdom". Shall we apply the principles of constancy or the principles of balance, synchronicity and uninhibited flow of Qi? Will you consider applying a different therapy in different seasons and at different times of day? Just curious as to your approach and internal calculus on this.

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

I don't agree with Alon's statement that controlled studies are the answer to this and everything, because I don't see how they can always apply to something as subjective as pulse diagnosis, or to acupuncture. At least people like those on this list can keep piping up when we see an emperor with no clothes on. >>>>That is the idea. I am not one that thinks that all truth comes in a two by two tables, but, I am not one that is willing to ignore what can be learned from such a window of view. There are many good objective methods to look at techniques such as acupuncture or pulses without compromising their integrity. That is why I strongly say that at least on personal level and at the school level good and rigid follow-up is a must be done at the clinics. I have not heard from anybody in the schools as of yet if they are setting up formal follow-ups.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Shall we apply the principles of constancy or the principles of balance, synchronicity and uninhibited flow of Qi? Will you consider applying a different therapy in different seasons and at different times of day? Just curious as to your approach and internal calculus on this

>>>I would allow all the freedom the paradigm needs. But a level of objective and blind evaluation must be inserted.

Alon

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> During the seven years I co-taught with Leon I observed a

significant phenomenon I call 'collective drift.' This is a

situation whereby the groups agreement on certain phenomena changes

over time. For instance, when I started studying with Leon, the

quality 'vibration' was fairly common but by the time his advanced

group in DC completed training, the finding became almost

ubiquitous - when this occurs the clinical significance of

identifying the quality is diminished.

 

 

Will:

 

Do you think that becoming more sophisticated in practice and

further education play any part in the " collective drift? " I would

be surpised if there was no development over time---especially in my

students.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> This is very interesting and a wide-ranging application of Nan

Jing Chapter Five primarily because the discussion there is

referencing depth. The use of this chapter as a designator for wave

interpretation would in my opinion be based more on an analysis of

how the wave changes at that depth as a designator for the

corresponding tissue/organ. >>>

 

While not quite a literal interpretation of the Nan Jing, I am

trying to show how our clinical findings " fit " into the limitations

of the classics. So perhaps instead of saying that the idea is found

in the classic, this is a point from where we can derive it.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim -

I still see a need to clearly distinguish features of depth from other features such as those related to wave. Maybe I'm being stuck on this but it is definitely one of the points Leon drove home with me over the years. The reference for the wave analysis you are referring to is in the Mai Jing - I don't recall the passage at the moment.

 

Will

 

 

> This is very interesting and a wide-ranging application of Nan Jing Chapter Five primarily because the discussion there is referencing depth. The use of this chapter as a designator for wave interpretation would in my opinion be based more on an analysis of how the wave changes at that depth as a designator for the corresponding tissue/organ. >>>

 

While not quite a literal interpretation of the Nan Jing, I am trying to show how our clinical findings "fit" into the limitations of the classics. So perhaps instead of saying that the idea is found in the classic, this is a point from where we can derive it.

[Guest guest]

> During the seven years I co-taught with Leon I observed a significant phenomenon I call 'collective drift.' This is a situation whereby the groups agreement on certain phenomena changes over time. For instance, when I started studying with Leon, the quality 'vibration' was fairly common but by the time his advanced group in DC completed training, the finding became almost ubiquitous - when this occurs the clinical significance of identifying the quality is diminished.

 

 

Will:

 

Do you think that becoming more sophisticated in practice and further education play any part in the "collective drift?" I would be surpised if there was no development over time---especially in my students.

 

 

Jim :

I do think improved standards will cause a drift...however, the drift I refer to here is one that in my opinion rendered a finding less useful and less significant in the context of case management. I felt it was diminished discipline regarding the criteria necessary for citing in this case a 'smooth vibration.'

 

 

Will