deke kendall

[Guest guest]

Here is a sample of deke kendall's ideas taken from congressional testimony

that may affect our profession:

 

Promoting a Common Physiological Base

"One of the most fundamental problems facing Oriental medicine and acupuncture

concerns the Western confusion on what constitutes the physiological

basis of this medical system. The ancient Chinese texts, especially

the Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic (Huangdi Neijing (600-300

BC), provides details on postmortem and physiological studies. The

Chinese discovered blood circulation some 2600 years before William

Harvey's experiments in 1628. Ancient Chinese physicians: identified

and named all the major blood vessels, correctly noting which were

veins and arteries; provided the first rudimentary description of

the body's defensive system and lymphatics; identified and correctly

noted the function of the internal organs, including the critical

function of the lungs in breathing in vital air needed to support

metabolic processes; and provided weight and size measurements of

the organs. Additionally, they identified all the muscles in the body, including skeletal origins and insertions of the muscles, and identified

the brain, spinal cord, and critical neurovascular connections in

the body, including those to the optic nerves and to the heart.

Although the ancient Chinese described features that are descriptions

of brain and neural function, including propagated sensations provoked

by needling, and sensory functions, they never described the peripheral

nerves in any detail ·

"·This physiologically rational concept suffered a tragic misfortune during the 1930s-1950s when the blood vascular system described by

the Chinese in terms of "jingluo" was mistranslated by the

West as "meridians." Even the word "mai," which clearly means

vessel, was translated as meridian. This resulted in the vascular

system to be replaced by imaginary or invisible pathways. The problem

was further complicated by mistranslating vital air (qi)

as "energy" for lack of a better word. Nutrients, defensive substances

and other vital substances were also categorized as energy as well.

The net result was a Western view of Oriental medicine that involves

incomprehensible and physiological incorrect ideas. The idea of

energy meridians casts Oriental medicine in a metaphysical light

and has been responsible for years of misdirected research and education.

It has also been responsible for much criticism of Oriental medicine

with practitioners being accused of practicing metaphysical rituals

(Ulett, Han, Han 1998) or participating in a religion (Breivik 1998).

Some medical practitioners are so frustrated with the state of affairs

they are reinventing acupuncture as medical acupuncture (Mann 1992,

1998; Filshie, White 1998)."

Question: Given the significant (often conflicting) philosophical diversity among the multiplicity of schools or forms of acupuncture,

how has OPEIU/the Guild contributed to the improved access to and

delivery of not only acupuncture in particular, but also Oriental

medicine in general?

"· The NGAOM has sought out participating members that have invested

much time and scholarship into understanding the basic Chinese theories

and explaining these in modern biomedical terms. This has involved

investigation of the real world aspect of Chinese medical theories,

including a comprehensive biomedical explanation on how acupuncture

works. Setting the record straight on the true physiological basis

of Chinese/Oriental medicine is a major goal of the NGAOM. Any medical

system must have a defensible understanding and application of the

accepted basis of human physiology. Incorporating these ideas into

practitioner training will lead to improved access and delivery

of Oriental medicine, including acupuncture. It is our position that the public is best served by practitioners trained in Oriental medical

theory and application that is consistent with the real world of

physiology, and to render service as a primary health care provider

· Eventually, over time, all practitioners would be educated at

the primary health care provider level and be able to efficiently

work within the conventional care environment, render a diagnosis

that is consistent with Western biomedical understanding, have the

ability to utilize Oriental medical modalities, (be) knowledgeable

as to when Western treatment is either necessary or more effective,

and (have) the ability to communicate effectively with all other

medical professionals. It does not include, nor does it need to

include, the practice of modalities unique to Western medicine. The ability to formulate a diagnosis consistent with Western biomedical understanding

is essential for patient safety, improved communication within the

health care system, and development of future research, to improve

overall service delivery."

 

--

Chinese Herbs

 

voice: (619) 668-6964

fax:

[Guest guest]

Here is a sample of deke kendall's ideas taken from congressional testimony that may affect our profession:

Promoting a Common Physiological Base

and All,

"Sounds" like a good idea, but ...

Not to put too fine a point on this, but I've taught human anatomy to medical students, masters degree physical therapists and O.T.s at Univ. of Texas and undergraduates at San Francisco State Univ. and other colleges around San Francisco all since 1986. I have never taught as a part of the anatomy curriculum any of the anatomy points taught in CM college. Nor have I taught an anatomical feature that traces the paths of the "meridians". I have on occasion rationalized to pre-CM students why kidneys and gonads are considered by CM the same system .... for embryological reasons, they are indeed.

I don't know what to make of all this ... except the advent of perfectly shattered pieces of paradigm that we can carefully observe slipping back into the larger reality from which they had been gathered. Perhaps those with "clear vision" would get a most picturesque view. Maybe eventually after the "big bang", paradigm harmony will be a possibility.

Emmanuel Segmen

 

[Guest guest]

One of the most fundamental problems facing Oriental medicine and acupuncture concerns the Western confusion on what constitutes the physiological basis of this medical system. The ancient Chinese texts, especially the Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic (Huangdi Neijing (600-300 BC), provides details on postmortem and physiological studies. The Chinese discovered blood circulation some 2600 years before William Harvey's experiments in 1628. Ancient Chinese physicians: identified and named all the major blood vessels, correctly noting which were veins and arteries; provided the first rudimentary description of the body's defensive system and lymphatics; identified and correctly noted the function of the internal organs, including the critical function of the lungs in breathing in vital air needed to support metabolic processes; and provided weight and size measurements of the organs. Additionally, they identified all the muscles in the body, including skeletal origins and insertions of the muscles, and identified the brain, spinal cord, and critical neurovascular connections in the body, including those to the optic nerves and to the heart. Although the ancient Chinese described features that are descriptions of brain and neural function, including propagated sensations provoked by needling, and sensory functions, they never described the peripheral nerves in any detail ·

>>>A bit of stretch

Alon

[Guest guest]

From what I've seen of Deke Kendall's and Ji Shenghan's writings, is

the working hypothesis that the points and channels access the nervous

system and send specific signals to the brain. While this is

interesting, it is in early stages of research and development. The

more extreme points of view such as George Ulett's dismiss the

'metaphysical' Chinese concepts altogether.

 

I have great respect for Deke, I've studied with the man and he is a

sincere indvidual. We just disagree on our basic understandings of

what the Nei Jing was trying to say. But his ideas are based on years

of study and research.

 

It is interesting that 'medical acupuncture' books, such as the

" Acupuncture Energetics' text of Joseph Helms and the works of Maurice

Mussat, use channel theory, yin yang, five phase, extraordinary vessel

and divergent vessels. While they discuss them in a

mathematical-physics context, they don't dismiss them as 'metaphysical

constructs'.

 

The channels do not automatically follow the neurological or

circulatory systems. While mai may be translated as vessels, and may

have correlations with the flow of blood through the blood vessels, it

is not an exact equivalent. They correspond to flows of phenomena and

information along an informational grid, using depth, direction,

quality and time to construct a model of human life and its

interactions with the greater environment. The model is coherent,

consistent and clear. And, yes, it varies over time with different

authors and eras.

 

Retranslating Chinese medical concepts into the limitations of

physiology and anatomy may be convenient for political and professional

reasons, but it is not entirely accurate. These ideas cannot explain

pulse diagnosis, emotional resonances with channels and points, or

pattern diagnosis. Also, I am wondering how Deke and like-minded

people will explain the workings of herbal medicine with this model.

 

I think using an 'in-progress' model as a basis for legislative change

potentially limits the development of the profession.

 

Qi is neither physical or 'spiritual/metaphysical'. The Asian mind did

not separate the mental and physical universe in this way. Just as

atomic models don't show 'real' atoms, or orbits exist as physical

entities, but are useful to describe the atoms or pathways of planets,

qi and channels describe phenomena that exist at an informational

level. One definition of 'metaphysics' is fundamental beliefs about

the world. In " The Geography of Thought " , Richard Nisbett states that

" European thought rests on the assumption that the behavior of objects

-physical, animal and human - can be understood in terms of

straightforward rules. Asians, in contrast, attend to objects in their

broad context. "

 

What appears 'real' in our Eurocentric world is not necessarily 'real'

in Tibetan or Korean realms of thought. And, who can say that the

relationship of the South American shaman to the world is 'false'?

The debate of 'metaphysical' vs. physiological brings us into the realm

of the epistemological.

 

This metaphysical vs. physical argument is a false one, if metaphysical

means the conceptual tools of qi, channels, and points. We are just

needlessly dividing phenomena that are basically complimentary if

looked at in a different perspective.

 

 

 

On Monday, March 24, 2003, at 04:01 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

> Here is a sample of deke kendall's ideas taken from congressional

> testimony that may affect our profession:

>

> Promoting a Common Physiological Base

>

>  

and All,

>     " Sounds " like a good idea, but ...

>     Not to put too fine a point on this, but I've taught human anatomy

> to medical students, masters degree physical therapists and O.T.s at

> Univ. of Texas and undergraduates at San Francisco State Univ. and

> other colleges around San Francisco all since 1986.  I have never

> taught as a part of the anatomy curriculum any of the anatomy points

> taught in CM college.  Nor have I taught an anatomical feature that

> traces the paths of the " meridians " .  I have on occasion rationalized

> to pre-CM students why kidneys and gonads are considered by CM the

> same system .... for embryological reasons, they are indeed.

>     I don't know what to make of all this ... except the advent of

> perfectly shattered pieces of paradigm that we can carefully observe

> slipping back into the larger reality from which they had been

> gathered.  Perhaps those with " clear vision " would get a most

> picturesque view.   Maybe eventually after the " big bang " , paradigm

> harmony will be a possibility. 

> Emmanuel Segmen

>  

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

 

>

> Qi is neither physical or 'spiritual/metaphysical'. The Asian mind did

> not separate the mental and physical universe in this way. Just as

> atomic models don't show 'real' atoms, or orbits exist as physical

> entities, but are useful to describe the atoms or pathways of planets,

> qi and channels describe phenomena that exist at an informational

> level.

 

I agree completely. However many in our field still think about qi

solely metaphysically and others solely phsysologically. However the

idea of inormation and connectivity (ken's term) seems to make the

most sense to me. In some respects, folks like Deke are reacting

viscerally to the very public image of our profession as having a

metaphysical bent. I am sure this also drives me to some degree. But

I try not to be too zealous, at least over time. :-)

 

 

One definition of 'metaphysics' is fundamental beliefs about

> the world.

 

 

while that is true in the strict philosophical sense, it is not what I

meant. This term is also used to distinguish between what can be

discerned by the physical senses and what cannot. The metaphysical

idea of qi is that it is something distinct from the workings of

biochemistry, some higher or deeper level of regulatory force that

controls the grosser forces of matter. An idea similar to the idea of

etheric and physical bodies in hindu yogic thought. first, this

reduces qi to one thing. Yet the concept is multivalent. My

(admittedly gut an uneducated) sense is that qi is kind of like

emotions. What we call qi is the holistic perception of the

fluctuations in one's bodymind. The uneducated mind just feels anger

when threatened. But you can also perceive this anger in terms of qi

flow (upwards). And you can also measure distinct biochemical changes

associated with states of anger. Qi is as real as anger, but also as

elusive. It cannot be measured as a thing,yet still exists, but not

apart from the world.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Retranslating Chinese medical concepts into the limitations of

physiology and anatomy may be convenient for political and

professional reasons, but it is not entirely accurate >>>

 

I think they have quite the opposite attitude as we do---that the

limitations and inaccuracies are those of CM. Keep in mind that Deke

called it a " tragic misfortune " that the blood vascular system was

translated as " meridians " and qi as anything other than " vital air. "

This movement is a correction and update of that.

 

While I often see things in CM as you do, considering Deke's

argument as " not entirely accurate " is probably the same response

used during the transition away from shamanism. Culturally dictated

politics are shaping the direction this profession is headed in; not

intellectual debate over terms. My worry is that their politics will

reshape CM and reduce it a subset of WM, using acupuncture and herbs

as its modality. In 5-10 years, will insurance companies pay

acupuncturists/herbalists who study in traditional settings or only

MDs and doctorates from their organization?

 

 

<<< . . . Also, I am wondering how Deke and like-minded people will

explain the workings of herbal medicine with this model. >>>

 

If it's a biomedical model, then it's simple enough---already done

in fact. Herbs contain active ingredients or combinations thereof

that can be extracted, synthesized, and patented. Isn't that where

the pharmaceutical industry is putting its money?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

But you can also perceive this anger in terms of qi flow (upwards).

And you can also measure distinct biochemical changes associated

with states of anger. Qi is as real as anger, but also as elusive.

It cannot be measured as a thing, yet still exists, but not apart

from the world. >>>

 

:

 

I would think that Deke's response (correct me if I'm wrong) is

that 'no you can't feel your qi flow upwards during anger.' You feel

the blood rushing to your face caused by specific and well known

physiological processes.

 

Not being able to scientifically measure qi means that it does not

exist---because there is nothing there to measure. It is imagined or

metaphysical---or, at best, mistaken for some other process.

 

You are being " too Chinese " in trying to find a middle ground

between these positions and truthes in opposing opinions so that the

two can exist harmoniously. Whereas, Western thought tries to

obliterate the opposing opinion or thesis. The biochemical model

simply says " you're wrong. "

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " wrote:

> [Deke Kendall said] One of the most fundamental problems facing

Oriental medicine and acupuncture concerns the Western confusion on

what constitutes the physiological basis of this medical system. The

ancient Chinese texts, especially the Yellow Emperor's Internal

Classic (Huangdi Neijing (600-300 BC), provides details on

postmortem and physiological studies.

 

[Alon replied] Bit of a stretch.>>>

 

 

It seems that this is a " new and improved " history if Deke Kendall

is implying that the Suwen lays out the details. In The

Expressiveness of the Body and the Divergence of Greeekand Chinese

Medicine, Shigehis Kuriyama writes that if we compare Hua Shou's

Shisijing fahui (1341) with Vesalius' Fabrica (1543)---both

anatomical drawings---the differences of CM and WM are obvious.

Chinese doctors lacked even a specific word for " muscle " .

 

" Muscularity was a pecularily Western preoccupation. On the other

hand, the tracts and points of acupuncture entirely escaped the

West's anatomical vision of reality. Thus, when Europeans in the

seventeen and eighteenth centuries began to study Chinese medical

teachings, the descriptions of the body they encountered struck them

as 'phantastical' and 'absurd,' like tales of an imanginary

land. ...Moreover, it is only over the course of the twentieth

century, with the spread of Western ideas, that muscles have become

a familiar part of Chinese thinking about the body. "

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

At 6:53 PM -0800 3/24/03, wrote:

>I have great respect for Deke, I've studied with the man and he is a

>sincere indvidual. We just disagree on our basic understandings of

>what the Nei Jing was trying to say. But his ideas are based on

>years of study and research.

--

 

Years of study, but of what, and with what abilities. When I

encountered Deke Kendall, in about 1985, he didn't speak or read

Chinese. At that time he presented a model that relied entirely on

other peoples research, for the most part Pomeranz as far as I could

tell. It seems to me that Deke early on got this idea into his head,

and has spent his time since then trying to rationalize it, ignoring

evidence to the contrary. It is telling that at the time I knew him,

he told me that he restricted his clinical activities to ear

acupuncture for addiction control.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Whatever one's philosophy about Chinese or Western medicine, is it

really the basis for modeling licensing agencies or certification

bodies? That is my biggest problem here. Our profession suffered

greatly in the past from the artificial 'five elements vs. eight

principles' war between the schools and practitioners.

 

I witnessed an all-out battle for control of the acupuncture board in

one state twenty-two years ago between students, practitioners and

proponents of differing philosophies of Chinese medicine played out in

a state assembly setting. It is a miracle that they just didn't throw

out the licensing board altogether.

 

Z'ev ROsenberg

 

 

On Tuesday, March 25, 2003, at 01:47 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

> While I often see things in CM as you do, considering Deke's

> argument as " not entirely accurate " is probably the same response

> used during the transition away from shamanism. Culturally dictated

> politics are shaping the direction this profession is headed in; not

> intellectual debate over terms. My worry is that their politics will

> reshape CM and reduce it a subset of WM, using acupuncture and herbs

> as its modality. In 5-10 years, will insurance companies pay

> acupuncturists/herbalists who study in traditional settings or only

> MDs and doctorates from their organization?

[Guest guest]

Kurayama's book is a good source text, Jim, to dispel the point that

the Chinese and Greeks had the same views on physiology. Clearly they

didn't.

 

If anything, the argument for the Nei Jing as a source text of modern

physiology is flawed, because the information is incomplete and could

never be used as a basis for a full-blown physiology as has been

developed in the West. There are clearly differences in how the

Chinese and Europeans see the body, and that is what makes the

interface between Chinese and Western medicine interesting and exciting.

 

 

On Tuesday, March 25, 2003, at 02:33 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

> , " ALON MARCUS " wrote:

>> [Deke Kendall said] One of the most fundamental problems facing

> Oriental medicine and acupuncture concerns the Western confusion on

> what constitutes the physiological basis of this medical system. The

> ancient Chinese texts, especially the Yellow Emperor's Internal

> Classic (Huangdi Neijing (600-300 BC), provides details on

> postmortem and physiological studies.

>

> [Alon replied] Bit of a stretch.>>>

>

>

> It seems that this is a " new and improved " history if Deke Kendall

> is implying that the Suwen lays out the details. In The

> Expressiveness of the Body and the Divergence of Greeekand Chinese

> Medicine, Shigehis Kuriyama writes that if we compare Hua Shou's

> Shisijing fahui (1341) with Vesalius' Fabrica (1543)---both

> anatomical drawings---the differences of CM and WM are obvious.

> Chinese doctors lacked even a specific word for " muscle " .

>

> " Muscularity was a pecularily Western preoccupation. On the other

> hand, the tracts and points of acupuncture entirely escaped the

> West's anatomical vision of reality. Thus, when Europeans in the

> seventeen and eighteenth centuries began to study Chinese medical

> teachings, the descriptions of the body they encountered struck them

> as 'phantastical' and 'absurd,' like tales of an imanginary

> land. ...Moreover, it is only over the course of the twentieth

> century, with the spread of Western ideas, that muscles have become

> a familiar part of Chinese thinking about the body. "

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

> I agree completely. However many in our field still think about qi

> solely metaphysically and others solely phsysologically. However

the

> idea of inormation and connectivity (ken's term) seems to make the

> most sense to me.

 

Just to clarify my use of " connectivity " (which is

not actually " mine " per se but a good old standard

English word that means " The quality or condition of being connected

or connective " according to dictionary.com):

 

I principally use four English words as

the likeliest suspects for a " translation "

of qi4, especially when they are taken together

to form a single conceptual unit. These

four words are:

 

connectivity, or the extent to which interconnection

takes place within a system (either in the body

or without);

 

change;

 

communication; and

 

movement.

 

 

This is just to say that, as described in

some detail in our book on the subject of

qi4, if you summarize what the Chinese have

been talking about when using this word,

particularly in the context of Chinese medicine,

for the past two or three thousand years,

you can get big chunks of the idea with

these four words.

 

The discussion as to whether or not such

considerations are or should be considered

metaphysical always leaves me scratching

my chin. I just can't quite figure out

what it matters.

 

And, as always, when discussing this I

feel it's important to point out that

" energy " is in no way a suitable candidate

to serve as an English equivalent of qi4.

 

Whereas, depedning on the meaning of

energy one has in mind it might well be

suitable to say that energy is qi4, it

seems absurd to me under any circumstance

to imagine that what the Chinese have

meant with the use of the word qi4 is

energy.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Rory, my major concern in all this is playing out philosophical stances

at the regulatory level. Priebe's group has been lobbying in

Washington to set up alternative educational standards for our

colleges. While I agree with the idea of an entry-level doctorate, I

don't want to see our cirriculi redesigned on the basis of a flawed

philosophy.

 

 

On Tuesday, March 25, 2003, at 05:01 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

 

>

> Years of study, but of what, and with what abilities. When I

> encountered Deke Kendall, in about 1985, he didn't speak or read

> Chinese. At that time he presented a model that relied entirely on

> other peoples research, for the most part Pomeranz as far as I could

> tell. It seems to me that Deke early on got this idea into his head,

> and has spent his time since then trying to rationalize it, ignoring

> evidence to the contrary. It is telling that at the time I knew him,

> he told me that he restricted his clinical activities to ear

> acupuncture for addiction control.

>

> Rory

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Whatever one's philosophy about Chinese or Western medicine, is it

> really the basis for modeling licensing agencies or certification

> bodies? >>>

 

 

In this case, it seems to be the sole motivation. There's probably a

significant doctorate market for persons who would like to use

acupuncture and herbal modalities if it wasn't for all that mumbo-

jumbo.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " wrote:

> And, as always, when discussing this I

> feel it's important to point out that

> " energy " is in no way a suitable candidate

> to serve as an English equivalent of qi4.

 

 

Ken:

 

What about translating qi4 as " vital air " ?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz "

<jramholz> wrote:

 

>

> Ken:

>

> What about translating qi4 as " vital air " ?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

ironically, that is Deke Kendall's preferred translation of qi.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> I witnessed an all-out battle for control of the acupuncture board

in one state twenty-two years ago between students, practitioners

and proponents of differing philosophies of Chinese medicine played

out in a state assembly setting. It is a miracle that they just

didn't throw out the licensing board altogether. >>>

 

 

I tend to see this pessimistically as a new front to fight. If herbs

are going to be controlled in the future by FDA and a new doctorate

is in political alignment with Western MDs and medical

acupuncturists, how does that change our profession?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz "

<jramholz> wrote:

 

> I tend to see this pessimistically as a new front to fight.

 

at least the battle lines have been drawn for those who perceive this

as a battle

 

If herbs

> are going to be controlled in the future by FDA

 

 

Did I miss something. this will never happen as long as republicans

control at least 40 votes in the US senate. It is mainly democrats

who are the hysterics on this matter. I don't envision a democratic

supermajority in congress ever again in my lifetime (for better and

worse, alas). We can easily sidestep most of the concerns by

supporting generals bans on herbs like ma huang with exemptions for

us. There is zero public support for just allowing unrestricted sales

of ephedra, so fighting that angle is a guaranteed loss.

 

and a new doctorate

> is in political alignment with Western MDs and medical

> acupuncturists, how does that change our profession?

 

 

I don't think these folks are aligned with medical acus. They believe

in extensive training, one profession, no lower routes of entry. They

even have a very fair degree upgrade for current master degree holders

(similar to what was done in pharmacy in the 80's) I bet they would

oppose medical acus altogether. As for aligning with MD's, I only see

a problem if the grads from these schools use something other than the

four exams to plan TCM therapy. I see no evidence that this is the

case. The call for meeting biomedical primary care standards is a

separate issue from TCM studies. These folks do not think you should

use lab tests to plan TCM treatment. They think we should be able to

make BOTH TCM and western dx. This is because one reading of

California law says we are permitted (and possibly required) to do this.

 

It really comes down to whether the material is presented in a new age

metaphysical oriented background or a biomedical one (I actually think

this has already happened at Mercy college). I know this is not what

Ken really meant, but in the same vein, it probably makes no

difference whether one tries to explain away TCM ideas using

metaphysics or physiology. As long as one teaches the TCM

methodology, any so-called explanation for qi, etc. is just icing.

One can use the medicine effectively without ever considering any of

this debate. the one point I do agree on is that the american public

in general is turned off by eastern metaphysics. If one wants to

reach the masses, one should really consider how metaphysical TCM

really is. Did the chinese conceive it that way themselves or did

they consider qi part of nature? If TCM is not metaphysical at its

core, then it is no sellout to present it as a pragmatic medicine.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> ironically, that is Deke Kendall's preferred translation of qi.

 

:

 

No irony here. Kendall, in part, justifies what he thinks on what he

says are the mistranslations of the French---mai, jinglou, qi. These

wrong translations take CM in a direction away from the scientific

basis it was, according to him, sympathetic with or seeking.

 

I am asking Ken's opinion as to the reliablity of Kendall as a

translator in these terms.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

They believe in extensive training, one profession, no lower routes

of entry. They even have a very fair degree upgrade for current

master degree holders (similar to what was done in pharmacy in the

80's) I bet they would oppose medical acus altogether. As for

aligning with MD's, I only see a problem if the grads from these

schools use something other than the four exams to plan TCM therapy.

I see no evidence that this is the case. The call for meeting

biomedical primary care standards is a separate issue from TCM

studies.>>>

 

:

 

I hope you are correct. Having grown up in Chicago, I often think

that everything is about backroom politics and power.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

It really comes down to whether the material is presented in a new

age metaphysical oriented background or a biomedical one (I actually

think this has already happened at Mercy college).

 

 

 

It looks like I'm going to be teaching at Mercy College beginning

next fall, and Mercy has just started using our DL classes for

independent study. They have a very interesting program which I have

been watching closely for several years now. Their students do/will be

doing their clinical work in three different hospitals in the NY metro

area. However, their current director wonders whether there really is

a viable market yet for a more medically mainstream training in

acupuncture and Chinese medicine. Their program is having trouble

competing against more " new agey " programs. There seem to be less

potential students who want the more rigorous clinical education. This

may also be a function of their marketing and advertising which is

not, IMO, that great.

 

In my experience, students at Mercy apply Chinese medicine according

to Chinese medical theory and principles. However, they do have to be

able to talk to Western medical professionals and function in Western

medical health care facilities. In terms of that, their students

compare very favorably to the Western med students with whom they

often work along side.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

> " · Any medical

> system must have a defensible understanding and application of the

> accepted basis of human physiology. ... It is our position that the

> public is best served by practitioners trained in Oriental medical

> theory and application that is consistent with the real world of

> physiology.... ·

> Eventually, over time, all practitioners would ....render a diagnosis that is

> consistent with Western biomedical understanding.... "

 

A cardiologist invited me to provide a written report on a patient she referred

to me. She enthusiastically told me: " just put it in English. I don't care

about what points you use or stuff like that, but just tell me what you did. "

The problem is, the points I used ARE what I did - the treatment plan was based

on Chinese medical diagnosis, not on biomedical diagnosis. It's not just random

" stuff, " it is our medicine.

 

The closer I get to graduation, the more I find myself becoming offended by the

suggestion that Chinese medical concepts are only legitimate when expressed in

terms an MD would use. While I'm fascinated by ongoing inquiries into CM -

biomed correlations and believe we all have much to gain from such

investigations, I also feel it is wrong to try and shape the Chinese medical

model to fit the parameters and language of another.

 

Both are legitimate models.

If we bow as a profession and enslave our terminology and methodology to

biomedical concepts, we are in a sense confirming the perspective that sees our

medicine as less than or junior to what is practiced by MDs. It's a bit like

playing professional baseball but being told by ESPN that we must speak in

football terms or no one will validate what we do as a legitimate sport.

Baseball is not football. It has never needed to be. Chinese medicine is not

biomedicine. It has never needed to be.

 

I'm not suggesting we should defy all attempts to communicate between the

professions - and I'm also not implying we shouldn't try to speak in terms that

other medical professionals can understand and appreciate. I am, however,

suggesting that we be mindful of our confidence and authority in our own

profession and maintain its legitimacy as a parallel to other medical practices.

 

--Laurie Burton

[Guest guest]

Their program is having trouble competing against more "new agey" programs. There seem to be less potential students who want the more rigorous clinical education. This may also be a function of their marketing and advertising which is not, IMO, that great. >>>That is why we need to push the schools. Its natural for people to choose the path of least resistance ie the easy programs

Alon

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

>

> I am asking Ken's opinion as to the reliablity of Kendall as a

> translator in these terms.

>

Sorry, no opinion to give. I've not

read his work. Only heard him talk once

more than a dozen years ago, so I have

no basis for any judgment or opinion.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim,

>

>

> Ken:

>

> What about translating qi4 as " vital air " ?

>

 

The English phrase " vital air " doesn't mean

anything at all to me. It also seems to rely

on a presumption that there is some other

kind of air, a " non-vital " variety?

I'm not referring to the existence, ever

more prevalent in the world, of toxic

or simply malevolent air, largely generated

by human beings. But adding the modifier

" vital " in front of " air " really begs

the question of the functionality of

qi. It thus doesn't translate much of

the functional meaning, and so much of

what the meaning of qi is all about centers

on functionality...instrumentality.

 

There's more on this in A Brief History of

Qi for anyone who's interested.

 

Qi definitely has a range of meanings and

usages that describe atmospheric phenomena,

and, importantly for its meanings and usages

in Chinese medicine, these atmospheric metaphors

enfolded in qi are useful in describing the

connection and communication of influences

that pass back and forth between the body

and its environment.

 

 

At best, I'd rate " vital air " as a surface

rendering of a body of meaning with a profound

depth. At worst, it is so surface that it

skips right off the meanings and passes

by having given no insight into what we

mean when we say qi.

 

Ken