Deke Kendall and to qi or not to qi

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

I find it odd that we cite him and enter into

> academic debate without his input.

 

I find your statement odd. that one cannot debate the published work

of an author without his participation. I began this thread with

direct quotes from Deke and Priebe. We are debating their actual

words; that is their input. I have invited Mr. Priebe to clarify his

article already and have received no reply. If you know Deke, ask him

to join us. he is more than welcome. But no one on this list should

be inhibited from debating the published ideas of those who are not

present. If you present it in a public forum (book, article or

lecture), then all is fair game. I suspect Deke would be thrilled

that we are talking about his ideas instead of shelving them and

ignoring them. I think he would be surprised if everyone agreed with

him or he if failed to ruffle some feathers.

 

[Guest guest]

If Deke Kendal is part of the CM cohort that would create a CM doctorate only on the basis of adequate existing Western physiological principles, then the falseness of such a configuration would lead to some interesting results. I can't quite imagine what they would be.

>>>Clearly we are not even close to be able to "create"a CM "biomedical"paradigm. It would be foolish to attempt at this point. However, it would serve the profession if graduates could communicate and be "bi lingual". This would serve the academic future of CM, the practitioners and public

alon

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

it would serve the profession if graduates could communicate and

be " bi lingual " . This would serve the academic future of CM, the

practitioners and public

> alon

 

How can graduates be bilingual unless they

acquire the language of Chinese medicine?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

How can graduates be bilingual unless theyacquire the language of Chinese medicine

>>>I have never said they do not need the language of Chinese medicine. I have always said i do not believe it needs to be in Chinese

Alon

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

> How can graduates be bilingual unless they

> acquire the language of Chinese medicine

> >>>I have never said they do not need the language of Chinese

medicine. I have always said i do not believe it needs to be in

Chinese

> Alon

 

Shall we launch a project to rewrite the

source materials then?

 

How do you deal with the language of Chinese

medicine without Chinese?

 

I know this may appear like a completely

facetious questions, but I'm truly bemused.

How in the world do you rationalize the

notion that the language of Chinese

medicine does not need to be in Chinese?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

And what would it mean to be bilingual

if there weren't two languages involved?

 

Ken

 

, " ALON MARCUS "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> How can graduates be bilingual unless they

> acquire the language of Chinese medicine

> >>>I have never said they do not need the language of Chinese

medicine. I have always said i do not believe it needs to be in

Chinese

> Alon

[Guest guest]

Shall we launch a project to rewrite thesource materials then?How do you deal with the language of Chinesemedicine without Chinese?I know this may appear like a completelyfacetious questions, but I'm truly bemused.How in the world do you rationalize thenotion that the language of Chinesemedicine does not need to be in Chinese?Ken

 

Ken,

It finally dawned on me ... I guess I'm a bit slow witted of late. I just visited the library at the American College of TCM in San Francisco this last week. There is not enough CM literature translated into English to base a doctorate program on. I just realized after reading your comments for the 100th time that the recommendation of an accrediting body to develop a physiology based CM doctorate degree is all about this. How else would it work?

A doctorate degree would assume that you could read all of the classical texts and relevant journals. In reading all of the journals, you would also need to be able to cross-reference all of the journals listed in the bibliographies of the papers your are using for a seminar or for research. I'm actually wondering if there's enough CM literature in English for a masters degree. How many CM clinical journals are there published in English. Actually quite a small number.

Granted it would be a clinical medical doctorate and not a Ph.D. ... or would it. It occurs to me that literacy in Chinese would indeed be a prerequisite for a doctorate in CM. The only other real alternative is the one that Deke Kendall is writing about. Does that read true to you? Way less than 1% of the CM literature is in English translation. If you can't read 99% of the literature, .... ???

Emmanuel Segmen

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

I'm actually wondering if there's enough CM literature in English for a masters degree. How many CM clinical journals are there published in English. Actually quite a small number.

Granted it would be a clinical medical doctorate and not a Ph.D. ... or would it. It occurs to me that literacy in Chinese would indeed be a prerequisite for a doctorate in CM. The only other real alternative is the one that Deke Kendall is writing about. Does that read true to you? Way less than 1% of the CM literature is in English translation. If you can't read 99% of the literature, .... ???

Emmanuel Segmen

 

All,

Don't get me wrong. I'd still rather go to an L.Ac. without an MS or a PhD than to an MD for my primary care. I was speaking above as an academic.

ES

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

How do you deal with the language of Chinesemedicine without Chinese?>>>Have people like you translate it

alon

[Guest guest]

And what would it mean to be bilingualif there weren't two languages involved

>>>I think i made my self clear on this

alon

[Guest guest]

It finally dawned on me ... I guess I'm a bit slow witted of late. I just visited the library at the American College of TCM in San Francisco this last week. There is not enough CM literature translated into English to base a doctorate program on.

>>>I have more books in my library they ACTCM, their library is a joke

Alon

[Guest guest]

How do you deal with the language of Chinese

medicine without Chinese?

 

 

There is not

enough CM literature translated into English to base a doctorate program on... Way less than 1% of the CM literature is in English

translation. If you can't read 99% of the literature, .... ???

 

 

Emmanuel S

 

Only with partial sarcasm I would say that if you have enough money you can get part way there, meaning

that what you can pay people to do cannot fully substitute for personal

translation skills. I have been continuously

paying people, within a corporate structure, to search and translate Chinese

language literature for me since 1993.

This is mostly related to information from

Chinese Journals but some of it is from textbooks that offer important details

not available from English language sources. One example where Chinese texts have

helped is in the use of many different medicinal fungi. Even the traditional

use of many of these ingredients is difficult to obtain in English let alone

the research that has been published in Chinese

journals in recent decades.

 

I think Alon’s statement about not

needing to use Chinese as the language of CM may be based

on potentially valid realities of his own experience rather than what is best

for the profession. It is also a

fact that the Chinese language as a pre-requisite for considering yourself a

very capable TCM practitioner in the US is daunting. I’ve

spent many hours learning to converse in Chinese. In most languages

I would be fluent by now, but in Chinese I consider myself a beginner. The longer you wait, with new literature

being published in English every year, eventually

Alon’s position as it relates to the lack of good texts will strengthen.

Many of us have watched a significant increase in English language literature

in the past two decades. Yet how many have carefully read half of it? Contrarily, the latest information on

research and academic issues, which is predominately

published in Chinese journals, is missed without Chinese language

skills.

 

Perhaps no issue that would require

everyone in a profession to increase their academic

workload in a significant way is ever just black and white. There are

always elements of both plus the grey area, all of which can contain disposing perspectives

with arguable validity. Without

knowing more than I do right now, which of course I don’t, I would vote

for having some language skills at the masters level and significantly more in

any academically or clinically oriented doctoral program.

 

My two cents

for the month…

 

Stephen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

 

Two cents buys alot these days! Must be a result

of the recent devaluations of the USD.

 

 

>

> Only with partial sarcasm I would say that if you have enough

money you

> can get part way there, meaning that what you can pay people to do

> cannot fully substitute for personal translation skills.

 

I'm trying to figure out which part is the

sarcasm. Nothing can substitute for the pleasure

and efficacy of knowledge. This is why Shakespeare

used the word the way he did. e.e. cummings once

wrote that since feeling is first, whoever cares

about the syntax of things will never wholly kiss

you...or something like that.

 

Parsing the value of knowledge is difficult

and, I submit, dangerous. Be careful what

you can defend in an argument. Of course one

can outsource knowledge. But owning a report

and knowing what it means are two decidedly

different things. You can put an entire

department or division together to know

such things, and that may give the entity

of which the department or division is an

element the functionality that obtains from

that knowledge. But the knowledge itself,

the know-how is always and only resident in

those minds that actually possess it.

 

It's a very complicated thing, knowing how

to treat a patient. And owning a bunch of

other people's ideas about it can never

provide one with anywhere near the level

of certainty and competence that medical

intervention begs for.

 

I have been

> continuously paying people, within a corporate structure, to

search and

> translate Chinese language literature for me since 1993. This is

mostly

> related to information from Chinese Journals but some of it is from

> textbooks that offer important details not available from English

> language sources. One example where Chinese texts have helped is

in the

> use of many different medicinal fungi. Even the traditional use of

many

> of these ingredients is difficult to obtain in English let alone

the

> research that has been published in Chinese journals in recent

decades.

 

Personally, I'd say that about 10% of the

knowledge that I have acquired about Chinese

medicine I got from the English language

literature. Most of what I've been taught

has been given directly to me from my

various teachers. And I've acquired some

modicum of familiarity with the flavor

and content of a few of the medical

classics. I've read precious little of

the contemporary research literature.

There's just too much!

 

 

>

> I think Alon's statement about not needing to use Chinese as the

> language of CM may be based on potentially valid realities of his

own

> experience rather than what is best for the profession. It is

also a

> fact that the Chinese language as a pre-requisite for considering

> yourself a very capable TCM practitioner in the US is daunting.

I've

> spent many hours learning to converse in Chinese. In most

languages I

> would be fluent by now, but in Chinese I consider myself a

beginner.

 

I have spent a good part of the past ten years

and I consider myself a beginner. I also consider

that beginning is the key. Beginning is the critical

step. If people begin, then the journey itself

takes over. It's an incredible adventure, and

those who don't take it are missing something

truly extraordinary.

 

 

> The longer you wait, with new literature being published in English

> every year, eventually Alon's position as it relates to the lack

of good

> texts will strengthen.

 

I don't agree. And I just hope that everyone

is around long enough to allow somebody to

say, " See I told you so. " I actually hope

that Alon and now you are right. I hope that

somehow it can be demonstrated and proven

beyond a shadow of a doubt that one doesn't

need to understand the Chinese langauge in

order to understand the elements and functions

of Chinese medical theory. And I hope that

this proof can be developed and delivered

sooner rather than later, so I can quit

wasting my time.

 

Many of us have watched a significant increase in

> English language literature in the past two decades. Yet how many

have

> carefully read half of it? Contrarily, the latest information on

> research and academic issues, which is predominately published in

> Chinese journals, is missed without Chinese language skills.

>

> Perhaps no issue that would require everyone in a profession to

increase

> their academic workload in a significant way is ever just black and

> white. There are always elements of both plus the grey area, all

of

> which can contain disposing perspectives with arguable validity.

> Without knowing more than I do right now, which of course I don't,

I

> would vote for having some language skills at the masters level and

> significantly more in any academically or clinically oriented

doctoral

> program.

 

I continue to cast my vote with individuals.

If an individual simply considers the basic

facts of the matter, I believe that the

conclusion that one should begin to study

Chinese language, particularly the language

of Chinese medicine, as a prequisite to

the study of that medicine, is virtually

unavoidable.

 

 

>

> My two cents for the month.

 

 

Many thanks. I'm putting them in my piggy bank

and will let them rattle around and see what

other thoughts the provoke.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " Stephen Morrissey "

<stephen@b...> wrote:

Many of us have watched a significant increase in

> English language literature in the past two decades. Yet how many have

> carefully read half of it? Contrarily, the latest information on

> research and academic issues, which is predominately published in

> Chinese journals, is missed without Chinese language skills.

 

In my opinion, everything one needs to practice is already available

in english, either in text, workshop or lecture form. Even great new

books like Jiao shu de are still just icing on the cake. the core is

already there for all to read. Second, the most important academic

goal is learning how to design programs and teach effectively, neither

of which has as much to do with TCM as it does with the general

principles of education. Adult learning theory applied by illiterate

americans has resulted in far more effective teaching than rote

lectures by chinese experts. I think there has been a lot of rhetoric

about the inadequacy of american education and the proposed solution

in some quarters has been to require Chinese language. However this

idea has been rejected and the emphasis has instead been on developing

progressive teaching techniques at schools like PCOM.

 

I have known a lot of people to study chinese over the years and this

has not resulted in near the benefit that orienting one's training

around cases and problem solving has. I have seen a quantum leap in

understanding and clinical applications since we implemented this

style of education at PCOM. And this opinion is shared by all my

colleagues, whether they speak chinese or not and regardless of how

they feel about the language acquisition issue. The main stumbling

block has been failure to lean practical applications of the data

available in english already. This has been misinterpreted as a

failure to learn chinese, but this is barking up the wrong tree. I

know some will descry these statements as more misguided resistance

to language study. But I just have to be blunt. I think those people

are just plain wrong and I still await evidence to the contrary.

While logically it makes sense that one would be better off knowing

chinese, practically it makes no difference as there is already more

good work in english than I will ever read in my current lifetime.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree that the process of education is an important issue, and there

is no doubt that at PCOM progressive teaching techniques have greatly

improved the quality of education there. I don't think, however, that

the language issue is an 'either-or' concern. As I've said many times

already, even a little knowledge of medical Chinese can improve one's

insight into the thought processes that inform CM. I see this even in

such books as " The Delphic Boat " , which recognizes the elegant way in

which the characters are constructed from simplicity to complexity.

 

 

On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 06:55 AM, wrote:

 

> Adult learning theory applied by illiterate

> americans has resulted in far more effective teaching than rote

> lectures by chinese experts. I think there has been a lot of rhetoric

> about the inadequacy of american education and the proposed solution

> in some quarters has been to require Chinese language. However this

> idea has been rejected and the emphasis has instead been on developing

> progressive teaching techniques at schools like PCOM.

>

[Guest guest]

My experience is very different.

 

I find myself waiting months or years for English translations of

essential texts, and finally I got tired of it. So I built up my

Chinese language medical library, even though I can't read fluently

yet. There are only one or two translated texts on CM pediatrics and

obstetrics, for example. We don't have in-depth texts on pattern

diagnosis. We don't have a complete materia medica with 5000

ingredients with information from source texts. I'd like more

information on latent qi warm disease, and commentaries on Shang Han

Lun with clincial applications. We don't have one reliable Chinese

medical history text. We have no biographies of great Chinese or

Japanese physicians. We have few books on dietetics.

 

And, lets face it, until recently the quality of translated texts was

not very good. Nor did they have glossaries or allow one to access the

source material to see how well translated they were. So that greatly

reduces the numbers of usable texts.

 

I understand that at this point in time, not everyone will be able to

learn or master medical Chinese. I certainly haven't yet. It is a

slow discipline. One teacher at PCOM has begun Chinese language

studies at a university, but I cannot leave my practice or teaching for

many reasons to do so without committing economic suicide. However,

I'll continue to slowly learn on my own.

 

 

On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 06:55 AM, wrote:

 

> I think those people

> are just plain wrong and I still await evidence to the contrary.

> While logically it makes sense that one would be better off knowing

> chinese, practically it makes no difference as there is already more

> good work in english than I will ever read in my current lifetime.

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> The main stumbling block has been failure to lean practical

applications of the data available in english already. This has been

misinterpreted as a failure to learn chinese, but this is barking up

the wrong tree. I know some will descry these statements as more

misguided resistance to language study. But I just have to be blunt.

I think those people are just plain wrong and I still await evidence

to the contrary. While logically it makes sense that one would be

better off knowing chinese, practically it makes no difference as

there is already more good work in english than I will ever read in

my current lifetime. >>>

 

:

 

Excellent and to the point.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

We don't have a complete materia medica with 5000 ingredients with information from source texts

>>>If i cant get the herb what is the use

alon

[Guest guest]

Examples are the many " western " herbs that are in the text, the many

anti-cancer medicinals, and ingredients that are used in modern TCM but

are not in Bensky or other English materia medica.

 

For example, an herb company asked me to find a substitute for huo ma

ren/sm. cannabis for one of their prepared formulas. I thought of a

warm, oily seed that lubricated the intestine, so I thought of flax

seed. But I wasn't sure, so I looked it up in the zhong yao da ci

dian. It had the same qi (warm, sweet), and had many of the same

functions as huo ma ren. So I felt confident that it was a reasonable

substitute.

 

 

On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 09:08 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

 

> We don't have a complete materia medica with 5000

> ingredients with information from source texts

> >>>If i cant get the herb what is the use

> alon

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

the many anti-cancer medicinals, and ingredients that are used in modern TCM but are not in Bensky or other English materia medica.

>>>>>I can get information on all the herbs any of my suppliers have. When I used raw herbs and i got them from kwak sing I was able to get information on lots of herbs that are not in bensky. bensky is not the only source in english.

alon

[Guest guest]

The other English sources are very limited, including the OHAI materia

medica.

 

For an example of how limited, see Andy Ellis's columns in the Golden

Flower newsletters.

 

 

On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 11:53 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

 

> the many anti-cancer medicinals, and ingredients that are used in

> modern TCM but are not in Bensky or other English materia medica.

> >>>>>I can get information on all the herbs any of my suppliers have.

> When I used raw herbs and i got them from kwak sing I was able to get

> information on lots of herbs that are not in bensky. bensky is not the

> only source in english.

> alon

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can put at the very least 50 kg of any herb on a container if there's a call for it. When Jiao Gu Lan, Hong Jing Tian and Hong Qu attained popular use in the early 1990s in China, Dr. Liang where I work brought it to America. That's because our clinic was using it. By the late 1990s a lot of Americans want it, so we stock more of it. We often run out before we can stock more of it. We don't put containers on the water in summer months. So we're approaching a tricky time of year in terms of stock. Currently we still have a fair supply of each with new containers coming in May and June. I can't put less than 50 kg of some new herb to the American marketplace on a container, so there has to be a bit of a call for it ... not just a few practitioners. There's still not a very large call for the above three mentioned herbs, but there's enough to stock it.

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

ALON MARCUS

Monday, March 31, 2003 9:08 AM

Re: Re: Deke Kendall and to qi or not to qi

 

We don't have a complete materia medica with 5000 ingredients with information from source texts

>>>If i cant get the herb what is the use

alonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

 

It's not clear to me whether you intended this

post as a statement of your opinion, as you begin

it or as an assertion of various statements of

fact, as it appeared to be as I read through it.

 

If it is the former, you are certainly entitled

to your opinion; but if you are forwarding

putative facts, you should include a few additional

relevant facts.

 

Fact one: the vast bulk of Chinese medical

practitioners in the world have always been

and continue to be trained in the Chinese

language. The appearance of Chinese medical

specialists trained exclusively in English

is recent and amounts to a very small percentage

of the world's cohort of Chinese medical

practitioners. Therefore the vast bulk of

evidence concerning the efficacy of Chinese

medical interventions remains within a context

that is most faithfully described in Chinese

language literature.

 

Fact two: in virtually every place in the

world where Chinese medicine has been successfully

transmitted from its native China to a new home,

this has been accomplished with a strong,

community wide foundation of access to the

language and literature of the subject that

is only available in a community that values

and shares literacy in the language of Chinese

medicine.

 

Fact three: the language of Chinese medicine is

Chinese.

 

I think it's just a little early for congratulations

on the glorious success of the innovative approach

that is based on the thoroughly unfounded notion

that one can build a profession of Chinese medicine

without these critical components of the subject's

foundations.

 

To speak metaphorically, we see branches of

Chinese medicine that have begun to flourish

in the West, but will these sprouts be capable

of sustaining long-term growth and development

without a well-grounded root?

 

The idea of learning Chinese and including

adequate education in Chinese medical language,

far from being rejected, as you suggest, has

been accepted by virtually every community of

students, practitioners, and scholars on earth

that have ever achieved a successful transplantation

of the roots of Chinese medicine.

 

Will the experiments that you praise so highly

prove equally successful in the long run?

 

We will have to wait and see.

 

Ken

 

>

> In my opinion, everything one needs to practice is already

available

> in english, either in text, workshop or lecture form. Even great

new

> books like Jiao shu de are still just icing on the cake. the core

is

> already there for all to read. Second, the most important academic

> goal is learning how to design programs and teach effectively,

neither

> of which has as much to do with TCM as it does with the general

> principles of education. Adult learning theory applied by

illiterate

> americans has resulted in far more effective teaching than rote

> lectures by chinese experts. I think there has been a lot of

rhetoric

> about the inadequacy of american education and the proposed

solution

> in some quarters has been to require Chinese language. However

this

> idea has been rejected and the emphasis has instead been on

developing

> progressive teaching techniques at schools like PCOM.

>

> I have known a lot of people to study chinese over the years and

this

> has not resulted in near the benefit that orienting one's training

> around cases and problem solving has. I have seen a quantum leap

in

> understanding and clinical applications since we implemented this

> style of education at PCOM. And this opinion is shared by all my

> colleagues, whether they speak chinese or not and regardless of how

> they feel about the language acquisition issue. The main stumbling

> block has been failure to lean practical applications of the data

> available in english already. This has been misinterpreted as a

> failure to learn chinese, but this is barking up the wrong tree. I

> know some will descry these statements as more misguided

resistance

> to language study. But I just have to be blunt. I think those

people

> are just plain wrong and I still await evidence to the contrary.

> While logically it makes sense that one would be better off knowing

> chinese, practically it makes no difference as there is already

more

> good work in english than I will ever read in my current lifetime.

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...>

wrote:

>

>

> It's not clear to me whether you intended this

> post as a statement of your opinion, as you begin

> it or as an assertion of various statements of

> fact, as it appeared to be as I read through it.

 

Ken,

 

My words are always my opinions based upon my observations. As for

purported statements of fact within my opnions, I always cite those.

Any uncited statement is my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. As

for your statements of facts, I would not dispute them, only contend

they were not germane to my post. Regardless of history or logic, I

stand by my position that that information already available in

english plus my unlimited access to chinese doctors and groups like

CHA more than suits my needs and I will not exhaust these resources in

my lifetime. I stipulate that that there is more than this to CM and

I am glad that there are those who pursue this and provide me with the

results of their explorations in such volume I can't even begin to

keep up. However, if I had observed that those who read chinese get

consistently better clinical results or that my own results were

unsatisfactory to my patients, I could not live with myself. You can

state all the facts you want. Nothing you say will change my past

experiences. And having devoted time to chinese study in the past, I

have concluded it is not the best use of my time. I know you do not

really think you can change my mind, so I assume you reply to

demonstrate the fallacy of my arguments to the group. I guess the

jury is out.

 

[Guest guest]

Regardless of history or logic, Istand by my position that that information already available inenglish plus my unlimited access to chinese doctors and groups likeCHA more than suits my needs and I will not exhaust these resources inmy lifetime.

>>>And again I would add the bottom line is looking at the outcomes. I think Todd if you go to china you will even feel stronger with your position

alon