Guest guest Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Kelly: I did not write any comments about the new accrediting body. What you quoted in your response and attributed to me was written by someone else. I simply replied to someone else's post to ask the name of this new accrediting body and where I might get some information about it. I still have not seen an answer to my question. I'm not interested in politics - only information (I am still a student). judy saxe Denver wrote : > Message: 3 > Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:06:26 -0800 > " Kelly Welch " <kdwelch25 > Re: Digest Number 1363 > > > Jude <jude > Re: new accreditors > > ... new org seems more in line with the AAOM " > > judy saxe > Denver > > > Kelly: Judy, as a new member of the board of directors of the AAOM I > repsectufully disagree that we are in any way " in alignment: with this new > accredidating body. Maybe Will can clarify if I mispeak. As a graduate of > Bastyr's program in Acu and Chinese herbs I pursued the " 5 element " in my > post graduate studies. I, in no way, see myself as a medical acupuncturist. > In fact, many of my patients here in Washington DC have gone to medical > acupuncturists and left their practices because they felt like they were not > getting Chinese medicine coupled with the fact that they had 3 office visits > that included blood work, physical etc before they were ever treated which > mostly consisted of ear acupuncture or laser ear acupuncture. But I digress. > As a board member I am an advocate of diversity in pracitce which is the > argument most " 5 element " use to keep them from taking the National Boards. > At the AAOM we suport high standards in education and public access to our > efficacious, cost effective medicine. Once the standards are met one is > free like in many other fields in this country to focus on whatever aspect > of the medicine speaks to your depth and committement to serving the planet. > One can do esoteric psychiatry but one still has to go through medical > school. > > All the best, > > Kelly Kelly D. Welch, M.S., L.Ac., Dipl. Ac & CH > 1800 Eye Street NW Suite 503-A > Washington DC 20006 > 202-783-9404 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 Research as shown that if you cut a nerve or anaesthetize it, acupuncture points related to that nerve stop working Alon Is this why my acupuncture treatments don't work on people on high doses of narcotics (oxycontin, hydrocodone)? Frances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 " If there were the guarantees of a high salary at the end of 4, 6 or 8 years, the major Universities would have TCM departments filled with (only) 4.0 gradepoints. ;-) doug " Hear, hear! Of course then I wouldn't have gotten in. Gabrielle Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 "If there were the guarantees of a high salary at the end of 4, 6 or 8 years,the major Universities would have TCM departments filled with (only) 4.0 gradepoints.;-)doug"Hear, hear! Of course then I wouldn't have gotten in.Gabrielle I would have gotten in ... and I sure would not have wasted any of my time and damaged my health in WM. I would have definitely been willing to go for fluency in Chinese, too, as a prerequisite. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 , Gabrielle Mathieu <gabriellemathieu> wrote: > > Hear, hear! Of course then I wouldn't have gotten in. > Gabrielle > Nor I... though I didn't find it difficult to maintain a 4.0 while in O.M. school. This does bring up a concern for me, however; despite's observation on the " new-agers " who dominate the student body, my perceptions on the student demographics in places I've taught (Chicago, Miami) over the last few years are that there has been a rather significant shift toward new enrollees coming from allied health and /or science backgrounds. Also the demographic has shifted to include more males (of which a female colleague of mine commented " there must be more money in the profession these days " ). While there is nothing wrong with this per se from my point of view -- and probably everything right from the point of view of many luminaries here -- I wonder what this continued demographic shift and the possibility of increased science prereqs would do to discourage prospective students from a background such as mine. I graduated from a relatively undistinguished state school with a degree in music, had a bare minimum of science, stink at math, etc. I wonder ultimately if in steering the profession away from the right brain toward the left we won't lose something very valuable and end up with a sort of second-rate " biomedicine junior " bereft of much of the certain something many of us sought when we entered the profession. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 I graduated from a relatively undistinguished state school with a degree in music, had a bare minimum of science, stink at math, etc. I wonder ultimately if in steering the profession away from the right brain toward the left we won't lose something very valuable and end up with a sort of second-rate "biomedicine junior" bereft of much of the certain something many of us sought when we entered the profession.robert hayden I agree with you. Robert. Music, art and poetry (and maybe dance) should really be the prerequisites. If you can do arts first successfully, then do sciences, then okay you get to attend CM school. I'd feel more confidence in a CM doc like you than if one of my WM colleagues went to your CM school. Although I did have a couple of classmates in the arts. One of my best friends was a retired ballerina. She was a ripe old 30 when starting medical school. She had the right stuff. Too bad she didn't go to CM school. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 While some may say that the 'certain something' is sheer sentimentality, I do think Chinese (and Japanese) medicine has unique qualities that require our full attention and focus. I, also, do not want to see a biomedicine jr. (thanks for the phrase, I'll use it) profession in the future. I am concerned that the new accreditation body that has been discussed previously at this site doesn't impose that on us. Z'ev, Don't worry. The practitioners with the right stuff will always be sought out. The WM-jrs will get what they deserve ... patients with their same mentality. "Give me a pill" ... "Fix me" type patients. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > While some may say that the 'certain something' is sheer > sentimentality, I do think Chinese (and Japanese) medicine has unique > qualities that require our full attention and focus. Z'ev (and Emmanuel), thanks for your thoughts. When I say the " certain something " , I mean exactly sentimentality - the sentiment that got you interested in going down this road in the first place. For those who want to be biomedical and focus on the pharmacology, there is that in OM. For those who look for self-development, there's that in OM too. For me, as an " artiste " , the study of past prescriptions by masters followed by the composition of prescriptions by me is no different than when I would analyze an adagio in a Haydn string quartet and then come up with something by Hayden -- a pale imitation for the first four hundred attempts and then perhaps something really unique and useful and wonderful that came through lil ole me. So I have nothing against science as a way in, if that's the hook that brought you here that's great... now take the time to learn about how composition in Chinese painting or music is reflected in eight-principle or five-phase or prescription methodology -- or how many strokes are in qi4. Wherever you came from, learn how the different parts interact, how connections (which may not be immediately obvious to the left brain) are formed, how to make it work as an entity unto itself not just in clinical problem-solving but as it was originally -- to nourish life. For me, I never ever thought I'd be looking through books on phytochemistry, pharmacology and pediatrics, especially for the same job which requires me to read in at least one foreign language, study philosophy, history, medical anthropology, meditation, astrology etc etc. The fact that all of this can be found in OM is precisely what makes it so awesome (or groovy, depending on your generation). Do we have time to teach all these subjects in OM school? Of course not, which is why we need to keep the welcome mat out for the gentle counterculture types as well as the superyang hotshot biomeds. The boat is a big boat, there's plenty of room. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 Not too long ago, we had a department chair meeting where we discussed 'right and left brain' students. As Robert pointed out, right brainers do very well with visual and pattern thinking, both very important with classical Chinese medicine. We are in a very 'scientized' age compared with 30 years ago, both east and west. . . .when was the last time you heard of students lining up for liberal arts college programs? This is going to influence the direction of cirriculi. I agree that one needs a balance of arts and sciences to be a well-rounded person. In the study of Chinese medicine, as Ken Rose points out, it is also very important to have some familiarity with the subject of Chinese arts and sciences. For me, studying Needham's history of Chinese technology and sciences was very helpful, and recent volumes in the Needham Research Institute volumes from Cambridge University Press. On Saturday, March 29, 2003, at 11:13 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > I agree with you. Robert. Music, art and poetry (and maybe dance) > should really be the prerequisites. If you can do arts first > successfully, then do sciences, then okay you get to attend CM > school. I'd feel more confidence in a CM doc like you than if one of > my WM colleagues went to your CM school. Although I did have a couple > of classmates in the arts. One of my best friends was a retired > ballerina. She was a ripe old 30 when starting medical school. She > had the right stuff. Too bad she didn't go to CM school. > > Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 Very inspiring post, Robert. Many of us who practice Chinese medicine, like myself, were and are musicians or artists. It was always a tradition in Chinese medicine to cultivate the arts as well. Dr. Yoshio Manaka, for one, was an artist and calligrapher. I also teach prescriptions in my classes as an art-form, where one learns the particular 'style' and philosophy of the physician/author. Interestingly, in Volker Scheid's book " in Contemporary China " he says that the writing of prescriptions is the center of most intellectual activity in the mainland Chinese medical world. On Sunday, March 30, 2003, at 05:48 AM, kampo36 wrote: > For me, > as an " artiste " , the study of past prescriptions by masters followed > by the composition of prescriptions by me is no different than when I > would analyze an adagio in a Haydn string quartet and then come up > with something by Hayden -- a pale imitation for the first four > hundred attempts and then perhaps something really unique and useful > and wonderful that came through lil ole me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 , " kampo36 " wrote: > So I have nothing against science as a way in, if that's the hook > that brought you here that's great... >>> This sentimentality---which I share---can distract us from the greater, political reality. While many of us in this field can think dialectically and see the benefit to both sides, most Westerners do not. Consequently, the playing field is not level. Science provides the culturally accepted way in for chiropractors and MDs to practice with only a few hundred hours. The lack of scientific basis for treatments encourages insurance companies to exclude us as providers in many states, and makes acupuncturists subordinate to MDs in other states. And the lack of accepted scientific research may help continue to keep herbs out of the scope of practice in some states. It will be interesting to see what concepts the new accreditation agency thinks should be given credit in order to practice as a doctor. I think Emmanuel's point that a doctor in the field should have access to the body of literature is important. It seems to me that the need for much of the Chinese literature will be replaced by scientific explanation. Has anyone see anything in print on the qualifications for the new doctorate? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 Jim, I think Emmanuel's point that a doctor in the field should > have access to the body of literature is important. It seems to me > that the need for much of the Chinese literature will be replaced by > scientific explanation. You and I read Emmanuel's point about access to the literature quite differently. It seems to me that the need for much of the Chinese literature will endure the emergence of any and all explanations that are likely to come along, at least within our lifetimes. You say the need will be replaced by scientific explanation. Do you mean that modern scientific explanations... ....of what I'm not so sure... will replace the Chinese literature? What Chinese literature will such explanations replace? And how is that possible? Most all explanations prove sooner or later to have been deficient, faulty, or just plain all-together wrong. One of the significant virtues of the classical transmissions is the care that has been taken and thereby bestowed within them for the conservations of ideas and information. Hence, as scientific explanations come and go, the Chinese literature on the subject does indeed endure, preserving for successive generations the accumulative wisdom of past ages. That is it endures if each and every generation that receives it is mindful of its value and responsible for its care and continuity. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 , " dragon90405 " wrote: > You and I read Emmanuel's point about access to the > literature quite differently. It seems to me that > the need for much of the Chinese literature will > endure the emergence of any and all explanations > that are likely to come along, at least within > our lifetimes. Perhaps we are reading E's point differently. I was saying that I find E's point about access important and agree with him but I am not sure that sentiment is shared by the new accreditation agency. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid. Has anyone seen their qualifications for their doctorate or questions in their exam? But has the " need " for access to the literature endured? At least in some quarters in the West it always will. But can't Chiropractors and MDs already practice without recourse to Chinese literature? In the past, almost everyone working today began their practice without access to " the literature. " I am just curious to find out what the new accreditation agency will consider important for their doctorate. We should differentiate between competence (which requires access to the literature) and legality (which does not). I should have made it more clear that I am speaking here only of the legal (political) qualifications to practice. > One of the significant > virtues of the classical transmissions is > the care that has been taken and thereby > bestowed within them for the conservations > of ideas and information. Hence, as scientific > explanations come and go, the Chinese literature > on the subject does indeed endure, preserving > for successive generations the accumulative > wisdom of past ages. Even Western culture 'preserves for successive generations the accumulated wisdom of the past ages.' Don't Chinese ideas come and go? You seem to imply that the Chinese literature is coherent and fully matured when it is actually a hodge-podge and lacks systematic discourse in many areas. I don't have the vision and scope of history that you do. My concern is limited to the few ideas I can contribute and leave to the next generation of this profession. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 that would be in an ideal world ... Universities serve a specific purpose and it is not to further education nor individual wealth. Sat, 29 Mar 2003 15:32:15 -0800 (PST) Gabrielle Mathieu <gabriellemathieu Re: Digest Number 1366 " If there were the guarantees of a high salary at the end of 4, 6 or 8 years, the major Universities would have TCM departments filled with (only) 4.0 gradepoints. ;-) doug " --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release 3/17/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2003 Report Share Posted March 31, 2003 Jim, > Even Western culture 'preserves for successive generations the > accumulated wisdom of the past ages.' Don't Chinese ideas come and > go? Why of course they do. And it's that ebb and flow that one can observe through a careful study of the classical literature. That's the beauty of writing stuff down. It automates...and vastly improves upon memory. It preserves successive moments so that future generations attain a perspective that provides greater and greater depth perception. But that only applies if someone is picking up the material and reading/using it. Books left unread are of relatively little value except to the worms that feed upon them. You seem to imply that the Chinese literature is coherent and > fully matured when it is actually a hodge-podge and lacks systematic > discourse in many areas. Well, you are no doubt more familiar with it than I. I have relatively little sense of what the Chinese literature is. I've only read tiny bits of it. > > I don't have the vision and scope of history that you do. My concern > is limited to the few ideas I can contribute and leave to the next > generation of this profession. My concern is for the mass hallucination taking place that it is possible to know something without knowing it. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2003 Report Share Posted March 31, 2003 , " dragon90405 " wrote: > You seem to imply that the Chinese literature is coherent and > fully matured when it is actually a hodge-podge and lacks > systematic discourse in many areas. > > Well, you are no doubt more familiar with > it than I. I have relatively little sense > of what the Chinese literature is. I've > only read tiny bits of it. I'm sure I've read much less in the original language than someone like you. Perhaps hodge-podge was too severe---it's just an expression of my frustration when things aren't fully thought through, disclosed, or developed. It would be fascinating to know, for example, what information did not get included in the Su Wen, or what that other context it might have been drawn from. But as Unschuld says, that will never be answered satisfactorily. But saying that CM often lacks systematic discourse is apparent when reading translations, comparing commentaries, and hearing that controversies have lasted hundreds of years. In Chinese literature, things are often mentioned briefly and never returned to, different systems of competing thought are discussed without explaining when one is prefered over the other, etc. Even translation is no guarentee of meaning and clinical applicability. Perhaps it's just my Western sensibilities showing. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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