Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 , "Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmen@i...> wrote: > My hope from your comments today is that this larger perspective is permissible on behalf of myself and of others who share this interest. And that's my request. I hope people will express whatever viewpoint they hold. Personally, metaphysics and mysticism and magic and demons and gods and meditation and yoga and qi gong have always been interests of mine. Everything from taoist texts to buffy the vampire slayer. I just don't think they have anything to do with Chinese medicine. If others think they do or think there is social or economic value in espousing this view as our professional face, I would never suppress their words, just oppose them. I believe the language of chinese mysticism is very similar to the language of chinese medicine and this has led to assumptions about the nature of chinese medicine from both within and without the profession that may be erroneous. I believe the erroneous identity given to these concepts has caused us professional harm. -- Chinese Herbs voice: (619) 668-6964 fax: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 Todd - Have you read Unschuld's Nei Jing commentaries on pathogens? Will Personally, metaphysics and mysticism and magic and demons and gods and meditation and yoga and qi gong have always been interests of mine. Everything from taoist texts to buffy the vampire slayer. I just don't think they have anything to do with Chinese medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 , "Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmen@i...> wrote:> My hope from your comments today is that this larger perspective is permissible on behalf of myself and of others who share this interest. And that's my request. I hope people will express whatever viewpoint they hold. Personally, metaphysics and mysticism and magic and demons and gods and meditation and yoga and qi gong have always been interests of mine. Everything from taoist texts to buffy the vampire slayer. I just don't think they have anything to do with Chinese medicine. If others think they do or think there is social or economic value in espousing this view as our professional face, I would never suppress their words, just oppose them. I believe the language of chinese mysticism is very similar to the language of chinese medicine and this has led to assumptions about the nature of chinese medicine from both within and without the profession that may be erroneous. I believe the erroneous identity given to these concepts has caused us professional harm. - Chinese Herbs Thank you for your permission to proceed. Also thank you for (as they say in the UK) your "loyal opposition". I believe C. G. Jung would approve of the dynamic tension between our views. It will make for a more lively discussion. I am a professional Western scientist and academic who also works with growers and agronomists in China and with American manufacturers. My professional persona is also represented in my views and understanding and is informed by a broad cultural orientation. While my family is partly in America, Europe and Taiwan, my roots as a poet and philosopher go far beyond these places to Persia, India and other realms. My meditative practice and my work since ordination more than 20 years ago is also my professional persona. As previously stated, I would not broach in text what can only be experienced in meditation or in the settings of an oral tradition. Nevertheless this realm is not something that I can dismiss in my professional work and most essentially I will not dismiss it where it may have bearing in my work for reasons of healing or human development. You and I are both teachers, and that alone means we must observe and address developmental issues. As a clinician you must observe developmental issues in your patients from childhood to old age, and the spiritual/emotional/psychological dimensions must be addressed as much as all other dimensions of the human being. Not that you will play the role of the priest or psychologist (unless you are one), but rather you need to have the eyes see such issues unfold through development. As previously stated, Michael Broffman once told me to write more poetry and dance more often as a method to tonify my kidney. I've observed a wide variety of such lifestyle prescriptions from practitioners and teachers who view those prescriptions as so primary that they precede other clinical therapies such as acupuncture, herbs, and tui na. Nam Singh often talks about taking retreat in the yin of the year, and working on big projects in the yang of the year. Americans often reverse that by making the Christmas season such a big social and also a big economic deal. I serve manufacturers who make most of their money through sales in the fall leading up to Christmas. People are often overwhelmed by duties and family pressures or depressed by the lack of them. Then at the other end of the yin/yang spectrum people generally take vacations in the summer. If you have eyes to see, this pattern is the reverse of the energies offered in nature. Not that we should be subordinate to the surrounding nature, but rather informed by it and attuned to the momentums available. Michael Broffman utilizes herbal treatment more in one season and acupuncture more in another season and also pays attention to times of day for various treatments. Also the language of mysticism as you note is not apart from the language of any other part of life. I don't view this as "unfortunate" but rather informative. Nor do I view that language nor mysticism in general belong to a particular liturgy, religion or to speak only to a particular segment of life. Myth precedes and invests all religious liturgy and is a deep part of all cultures. Myth informs the culture day to day and unfolds within the culture. My brother is a Jungian psychotherapist, has seen patients for many years and his clinical practice is informed by the unfolding of the "American" myth among other more deeply embedded myths. The saying goes in mysticism that music precedes poetry and poetry precedes philosophy. Different cultures around the world posit different ontological and phenomenological boundaries. To "see" the science or anything else in that culture or how it informs the science of our own culture, you need to "see" the culture's universe of discourse as well as the ontological and phenomenological boundaries in which people live. How it "feels" matters ... not just what you know and definitely not just what is anatomically or physiologically happening. We've already touched on this area in previous posts, and we heard many good inputs from a wide variety of people. At any rate I am in your debt as the moderator for maintaining the homeostasis of this site. Thus, I will endeavor to find ways in which my "loyal opposition" is also a compassionate dynamic of what's spoken about. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 Emmanuel, there is no doubt that Michael's inspiration since I met him 27 years ago has been the greatest one for me in Chinese medicine. It is this kind of stuff that inspires me (lifestyle recommendations and chronotherapy) in Chinese medicine as much as the actual treatment that is given. I've tried to get Michael to lecture to our profession, unsuccessfully. But I do quote him a lot in my own seminars and classes. On Friday, March 28, 2003, at 04:15 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > As previously stated, Michael Broffman once told me to write more > poetry and dance more often as a method to tonify my kidney. I've > observed a wide variety of such lifestyle prescriptions from > practitioners and teachers who view those prescriptions as so primary > that they precede other clinical therapies such as acupuncture, herbs, > and tui na. Nam Singh often talks about taking retreat in the yin of > the year, and working on big projects in the yang of the year. > Americans often reverse that by making the Christmas season such a big > social and also a big economic deal. I serve manufacturers who make > most of their money through sales in the fall leading up to > Christmas. People are often overwhelmed by duties and family > pressures or depressed by the lack of them. Then at the other end of > the yin/yang spectrum people generally take vacations in the summer. > If you have eyes to see, this pattern is the reverse of the energies > offered in nature. Not that we should be subordinate to the > surrounding nature, but rather informed by it and attuned to the > momentums available. Michael Broffman utilizes herbal treatment more > in one season and acupuncture more in another season and also pays > attention to times of day for various treatments. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 I think the reason that people confused CM with demons, mysticism, magic, etc. is that there are some people out there who've claimed and done those practices to heal people. --Dina >> My hope from your comments today is that this larger perspective is p= >ermissible on behalf of myself and of others who share this interest. And = >that's my request.=20=20 > >I hope people will express whatever viewpoint they hold. Personally, metap= >hysics and mysticism and magic and demons and gods and meditation and yoga = >and qi gong have always been interests of mine. Everything from taoist tex= >ts to buffy the vampire slayer. I just don't think they have anything to d= >o with Chinese medicine. If others think they do or think there is social = >or economic value in espousing this view as our professional face, I would = >never suppress their words, just oppose them. I believe the language of c= >hinese mysticism is very similar to the language of chinese medicine and th= >is has led to assumptions about the nature of chinese medicine from both wi= >thin and without the profession that may be erroneous. I believe the erron= >eous identity given to these concepts has caused us professional harm.=20=20 >-=20 > >Chinese Herbs > > Thank you for your permission to proceed. Also thank you for (as the= >y say in the UK) your " loyal opposition " . I believe C. G. Jung would appro= >ve of the dynamic tension between our views. It will make for a more livel= >y discussion.=20=20 > >I am a professional Western scientist and academic who also works with grow= >ers and agronomists in China and with American manufacturers. My professio= >nal persona is also represented in my views and understanding and is inform= >ed by a broad cultural orientation. While my family is partly in America, = >Europe and Taiwan, my roots as a poet and philosopher go far beyond these p= >laces to Persia, India and other realms. My meditative practice and my wor= >k since ordination more than 20 years ago is also my professional persona. = >=20 > >As previously stated, I would not broach in text what can only be experienc= >ed in meditation or in the settings of an oral tradition. Nevertheless thi= >s realm is not something that I can dismiss in my professional work and mos= >t essentially I will not dismiss it where it may have bearing in my work fo= >r reasons of healing or human development. You and I are both teachers, an= >d that alone means we must observe and address developmental issues. As a = >clinician you must observe developmental issues in your patients from child= >hood to old age, and the spiritual/emotional/psychological dimensions must = >be addressed as much as all other dimensions of the human being. Not that = >you will play the role of the priest or psychologist (unless you are one), = >but rather you need to have the eyes see such issues unfold through develop= >ment. > > As previously stated, Michael Broffman once told me to write more poetry a= >nd dance more often as a method to tonify my kidney. I've observed a wide = >variety of such lifestyle prescriptions from practitioners and teachers who= > view those prescriptions as so primary that they precede other clinical th= >erapies such as acupuncture, herbs, and tui na. Nam Singh often talks abou= >t taking retreat in the yin of the year, and working on big projects in the= > yang of the year. Americans often reverse that by making the Christmas se= >ason such a big social and also a big economic deal. I serve manufacturers= > who make most of their money through sales in the fall leading up to Chris= >tmas. People are often overwhelmed by duties and family pressures or depre= >ssed by the lack of them. Then at the other end of the yin/yang spectrum p= >eople generally take vacations in the summer. If you have eyes to see, thi= >s pattern is the reverse of the energies offered in nature. Not that we sh= >ould be subordinate to the surrounding nature, but rather informed by it an= >d attuned to the momentums available. Michael Broffman utilizes herbal tre= >atment more in one season and acupuncture more in another season and also p= >ays attention to times of day for various treatments. > >Also the language of mysticism as you note is not apart from the language o= >f any other part of life. I don't view this as " unfortunate " but rather in= >formative. Nor do I view that language nor mysticism in general belong to= > a particular liturgy, religion or to speak only to a particular segment of= > life. Myth precedes and invests all religious liturgy and is a deep part = >of all cultures. Myth informs the culture day to day and unfolds within th= >e culture. My brother is a Jungian psychotherapist, has seen patients for = >many years and his clinical practice is informed by the unfolding of the " A= >merican " myth among other more deeply embedded myths.=20 > >The saying goes in mysticism that music precedes poetry and poetry precedes= > philosophy. Different cultures around the world posit different ontologic= >al and phenomenological boundaries. To " see " the science or anything else = >in that culture or how it informs the science of our own culture, you need = >to " see " the culture's universe of discourse as well as the ontological and= > phenomenological boundaries in which people live. How it " feels " matters = >... not just what you know and definitely not just what is anatomically or = >physiologically happening. We've already touched on this area in previous = >posts, and we heard many good inputs from a wide variety of people.=20=20 > >At any rate I am in your debt as the moderator for maintaining the homeosta= >sis of this site. Thus, I will endeavor to find ways in which my " loyal op= >position " is also a compassionate dynamic of what's spoken about.=20 > >Emmanuel Segmen _____ EDSAMAIL. Internet the way YOU WANT IT. www.edsamail.com.ph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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