Mysticism in healing / acupuncture / herbalism

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

See these mails, cross-posted from LIKEMList. Great stuff Shar &

Michael!

 

IMO, you have hit the nail on the head. As long as the sayer has

love in his/her heart and seeks the truth sincerely, why apologise

to anyone for speaking what one believes?

 

Peace to all,

Phil

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

 

Hi everyone,

says...

“None of what I said diminishes the value of such practices for any

individual or private clinic or spa. But I do question the wisdom of

giving what are essentially personal religious beliefs too central a

place in our professional presentation of the medicine to the public

and at the educational level. Clearly there are quite differing

opinions about this topic throughout all of Chinese history and such

is the nature of religious discussions. Issues such as this cannot

be resolved and as long as members of the field hold diverse

religious and philosophical views, I think the best face to present is

our shared secular face, especially given the religious beliefs of

much of our market. We all hold to the methodology of pattern

diagnosis. That is what is most important. If Chinese history

suggested to me that their mainstream medicine had been

anything but secular, I would not feel on such firm ground with this

position.”

 

In thinking about what Todd has to say a couple of things come to

mind.

 

1. To limit the presentation to the public to some lowest common

denominator of a 'secular face' is fraudulent to those who see and

experience other wise. We or me at least gets asked how come it

works, and apart from saying " I don't know' I might speculate on

how I see things working. Yet I state that this is my bias and they,

the patients, don't have to accept it. Also I never promise them that

they must follow x, y and z and if they do not they will not recover

on some religious ground of following the Tao etc. I simply state

that I don't know what capacity there is to heal and that this

healing incorporates bodymind and spirit, whatever the idea of spirit

they hold I am at the very least referring to the sparkle in the eye.

 

2. Two analogues come to mind with AP:

 

a. One is that acupoints are like transit centres where all manner of

modes of transportation take place, from being on foot to launching

off into outer space ... say. So, if surgeons want to transit on the

nervous system to perform surgery and blind Toyohari practitioners

transit the points inches or centimetres above the point... what is

the need to limit the points to only one mode of transportation to

use this analogy? For what purpose, is the public some ignorant

being that has no inner concept of a non-material life? Or do we

need to legitimise AP to some material level in order to feel 'safe' or

'sane'? And in being secular how arrogant (?)(I am not certain what

is the right word here) are we to those to whom AP forms part of an

ancestral inheritance inter-woven with religious belief different from

our own, and from whom we westerns have learnt so much?

 

A couple of years ago on the Gold Coast, Ikeda Sensi on his first

visit outside of Japan, gave a Dx of one of the attending

practitioners as being possessed. He or the translator made no

clarification. Ikeda Sensi is a highly respected master practitioner.

Do we really want to tell him to become secular in his teaching?

 

Healing is no 2+2=4, well not in my clinic; in my clinic it has tears

and laughter and joy and sadness and insights and fears and

angers and stuff that doesn't fit into clinical medical terms; such as

passion.

 

b. I find acupoints a little like the way my keyboard has access to

programs and even to a modem to transport it 'invisibly' to others

across at least this planet. So why would I want to limit it by

objectifying others to what programs they run or access. This thing

called AP is really a subjective experience, and what is wrong with

acknowledging that?

 

3. Just cause I have a patient who can describe the entire length of

the Kidney meridian from Kid 9 all the way around the kidney,

when they didn't even know it was the kidney meridian on one of

their earliest treatments, doesn't mean that all my patients have to

have that experience or that experience increases the effectiveness

of the treatment.

 

I had another patient who was so sensitive to the meridian

experience that her first acupuncture practitioner could only insert

and instantly remove the needle. The more subtle approach like ion-

pumping cords could be left in place for a few minutes before she

felt overwhelmed. So what I think is important is that we maybe

adjust the dose for those beings who are more sensitive to the

meridians.

 

Personally, I usually have very little sensation from standard TCM

treatments, yet more refined meridian therapy increases my

awareness internally.

 

4. AP is not standardised as taught in TCM, there are so many

different models with different rules of point selection and treatment

method. There is no one right AP, IMO. At best the 'rules' are

guidelines to help a practitioner find a pattern and then suggest to

her or him how to influence that pattern.

 

Heck, we are all in a state of dynamic equilibrium not some static

car engine that needs its oil changed and tires inflated. We have

different cultures with different social norms, different lifestyles why

homogenise AP to some current western singularity? Some of us

hold that there is one true god only, others respect multiple gods,

and others will see no god/s at all.

 

5. Even herbs I suspect vary from one season to another from one

geographically to another. They are not static entities with

invariable qualities of active ingredients. They too have an energetic

within their 'norm'.

 

6. How about we acknowledge our personal belief rather than try

and hide it under some bland secular statements? Let us own our

personal philosophy and declare our bias and subjectivity and live

our journey and assist as we might those that cross our path. Shar

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Michael Towers

 

Shar wrote: “Issues such as this cannot be resolved and as long as

members of the field hold diverse religious and philosophical views,

I think the best face to present is our shared secular face,

especially given the religious beliefs of much of our market. We all

hold to the methodology of pattern diagnosis. That is what is most

important. If Chinese history suggested to me that their

mainstream medicine had been anything but secular, I would not

feel on such firm ground with this position.”

 

What is a dream - a vision - the void, a belief that some may call

religion, Tao, or ?. Because we cannot measure " it " does not mean

we have to hide our desire. In my experience with other " religions "

there seems to be, at the heart of it, a similarity. That is the inert

desire to understand our creation, to try to explain it, or try to

experience it in any way we can. Each culture has a way of

expressing this desire. The spirit, or Spirit has different

connotations. For my patients I explain Spirit in this way. First it is

the sense of Will & Determination. When you lose your spirit it

leads away from life. When you have or gain spirit you move more

towards life. To be spiritless is either death or like death. A patient

whose spirit cannot be lifted, if depleted, is moving toward a death.

That is why there are Spirit points. The other thing I tell my patients

is that Spirit is the sense of connection. First internal connection.

We must be able to at least begin to recognize our inner being, it

is that inner connection / consciousness, that allows us to

recognize the external connections of other beings and our

universe. There are really no disconnections between our physical,

emotional, mental and spiritual self's, except in our minds, whether

we want to throw one out or not. The more we, as practitioners can

become conscious of our own Spirit, the more we will have the

ability to recognize that in our patients (all humanity). I am not

talking here of one religion or another, I am talking about the quality

that everyone I have ever spoken to agrees. Whether or they

" believe " in religion or not. Yours in health, Michael Towers

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Best regards,

 

 

WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

WWW :

Email: <

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

Email: <

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> A couple of years ago on the Gold Coast, Ikeda Sensi on his first

> visit outside of Japan, gave a Dx of one of the attending

> practitioners as being possessed. He or the translator made no

> clarification. Ikeda Sensi is a highly respected master

practitioner. Do we really want to tell him to become secular in his

teaching? >>>

 

 

If the law regarding who may practice and their scope of practice

dictates otherwise, then " yes. "

 

I can give you a more extreme example of what I'm talking about. A

fellow teacher at our school brought an old acupuncturist, who was

also a martial artist, to his clinic to practice. During the course

of his stay, the old acupuncturist was treating a patient with

pancreatic cancer. My friend was in another room at the time. All of

a sudden, my friend heard a crack and the patient cry out in pain.

Before he could get to the treatment room to see what was going on,

he heard 3 more cracks and cries of pain.

 

When he got to the room, he saw that the old acupuncturist had,

without preparing the patient, broken both the patient's wrists and

ankles---presumably a folkloric treatment for the condition.

Needless to say, the patient was in great pain and needed immediate

medical attention ... and he wanted to sue everyone. My friend had

to get the old acupuncturist quickly out of town and back to China

to avoid his facing any legal consequences.

 

The only thing that saved my friend from the wrath of the patient is

that his pancreatic cancer went into remission---go figure. The way

I understand the treatment is that by breaking both wrists and

ankles, the old acupuncturist cut off the all the vessel flows to

the pancreas to sedate the cancer (since heavenly and earthly qi

start at the ting points and go to the center of the body); at the

same time, using the pain to strongly stimulate the immune system.

Actually, it is very logical once you think about it. I tried to

duplicate the concept with a pancreatic cancer patient---using only

needles and not physical force---and it worked.

 

My point is that the effectiveness of the treatment is not the

deciding factor in who can do what; even MDs must face restrictions

in their practice. The law places those restrictions---and politics

determines the law.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz " wrote:

I tried to duplicate the concept with a pancreatic cancer patient---

using only needles and not physical force---and it worked. >>>

 

 

I wrote in haste before taking the laudry downstairs. I want to

clarify this point. I didn't mean to imply that the cancer went into

remission. The patient came to my office only once when he was

passing through Denver visiting family, who brought him to me.

 

What I actually saw was the cancer movement in the pulse normalize

during the treatment, and he reported that his pain was much

improved for about three days.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim,

I think the example of the Chinese physician who broke the wrists of

the patient, while obviously extreme when one looks at it from the

outside, is an example of a more radical strain of healers that touches

even Western medicine. It takes guts to take such risks, but sometimes

it is what is needed. However, it is outside of our scope and very

risky, so I am not suggesting that one does irresponsible or illegal

actions. But your tale reminds me of Hua To and Sun Si-miao stories,

where they risk their lives to help patients by doing seemingly crazy,

dangerous or irrational things.

 

 

On Sunday, March 30, 2003, at 10:39 PM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

> I tried to duplicate the concept with a pancreatic cancer patient---

> using only needles and not physical force---and it worked. >>>

I wrote in haste before taking the laudry downstairs. I want to

clarify this point. I didn't mean to imply that the cancer went into

remission. The patient came to my office only once when he was

passing through Denver visiting family, who brought him to me.

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> I think the example of the Chinese physician who broke the wrists

of the patient, while obviously extreme when one looks at it from

the outside, is an example of a more radical strain of healers that

touches even Western medicine. It takes guts to take such risks, but

sometimes it is what is needed. However, it is outside of our scope

and very risky, so I am not suggesting that one does irresponsible

or illegal actions. But your tale reminds me of Hua To and Sun Si-

miao stories, where they risk their lives to help patients by doing

seemingly crazy, dangerous or irrational things. >>>

 

 

Z'ev:

 

You bring up some very interesting points. I don't know about the

dangerous, but the crazy and irrational interests me. It reminds me

of a story about Sun Si-miao that Kaptchuk told years ago at a

conference in Boston. I don't know if I remember the story correctly

after all these years, but . . . A woman was brought to Sun Si-miao

that had already been seen by all the acupuncturists and herbalists

in town to no avail. When he examined her pulses he saw a GB

movement going to the heart and a knotting movement in the spleen

(as much description of the pulses as katchuk knew). He didn't do

any acupuncture, nor prescribe an herbal formula. Hearing that her

husband was away at war, he scolded her until she in turn became

angry with him and started to yell back (something entirely unseemly

for a Chinese lady to do). Sun Si-miao then soothed her and told her

that her husband was alright and coming home to her soon (according

to the story, he lied). At that point, the woman's pulses and

symptoms disappeared; she was cured.

 

The point of this story is that irrational acts can have a purpose.

Her pulses showed that her problem was psychosomatic. His actions

treated her at the root, the constant thinking and worrying which

created the physical heart problems. In fact, I see similar pulses

in patients from time to time today but, not being a Sun Si-miao, I

use needles to try and change it.

 

What interested me in the old acupuncturist/martial

artist's " irrational " therapy was its underlying logic and how well

it drew upon Chinese medical theory. It was something that I

wouldn't have thought of, nor dare try. It was probably the most

efficient way of working when modern resources are not available.

 

It also highlights two ideas we rely on in Dong Han system: how

meridian and 5-Element systems work together and are both required

for problems this complicated; and how much stimulation the immune

system may require to revive its fight in the late stages of a

catastophic disease.

 

For the second idea, stimulating the immune system, my teacher often

used thumb-sized direct moxa. Some of his friends did 10,000 thumb-

sized direct moxa in Spring and Fall for longevity. I was suspicious

of whether this was true until one of his friends showed me his

saucer-size moxa scar on his lower abdomen.

 

 

Jim Ramholz