Hongkong CM doctors wants hospital access to SAR...

[Guest guest]

,

WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

April 18,2003

 

Dear Will,

 

First of all I would like to thank you and other CHA rs

who e-mailed me recently for all your nice comments about my

recents postings on SARS . I am also glad to hear that the

Chinese faculty is discusing this important matter -- SARS or

Atypical pneumonia or fei dian xing feiyan epidemic which as

everyone knows is now a worldwide epidemic and thus a

concern for everyone.

 

Recently, The Hongkong Standard (on-line April 18,2003)

reported that a delegation from the Hongkong Ministry of Health

has visited Guangzhou to learn from the latters' experience in

dealing with the epidemic.The Acting Chief executive of the

Hospital authority , Ko Wing Man was quoted as saying that

" We hope to exchange views with mainland experts on the

treatments that have been successfully applied in treating viral

pneumonia patients. " he said. " Besides we also hope to

discuss how they have contained the spread of the disease

within the confines of the hospital. Although we know that the

management systems in Hongkong and the mainland are

different,we both have the same principles with regard to public

health "

 

Mr. Ko said that as some patients in Hongkong did not

respond to the ribavirin and steroid treatment, the delegation

was interested in learning if there were any other remedies that

could be used. He also said that should they find such

remedies, it was quite possible they could be tested in

Hongkong.

 

On another front, a member of the medical team that treated

the first cases of SARS patients at the Guangdong TCM Hospital

Dr. Lin Lin was invited to give a talk in Hongkong by the

Chinese Medical Society of the Hongkong Baptist University. Dr.

Lin gave more deatils on how the frontline hospital personell

who frequently made contact with infected patients, protected

themselves from SARS contamination . She said that from their

experience, it was important that hospital personell dealing with

SARS patients be guaranteed enough rests from their intense

work. At the Guangdong TCM Hospital the work shift for medical

personell was shortened to four hours instead of the 8 hour

work. At the same time, medical personell received

supplementary nutrition (probably the American Ginseng) so that

they will have enough body resistance . In addition they were

also provided individualized ge ti hua preventative herbal

preparations.

 

As for the question of the correlations between the CM

classical Shang han and Wen Bing concepts and the

biomedical notions of viral theory, I agree with you that both

ancient knowledge systems are useful. However, in the context

of the hodge-podge integration of WM and CM in the mainland,

the problem is more how CM as a tradition of health care can

break out this culltural and ideological shackle and have an

identity of its own that is separate from WM. After this is done

(which is a complex and protracted academic and political

struggle) a truly pluralistic system of health care can sprout in

the mainland .

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Rory -

>

> As you might imagine, it is a great topic of inquiry amongst our

Chinese

> faculty. They consider it to be winter and spring warm disease.

One of the

> criteria is the timing of arrival, especially the spread as the

warm winds of

> spring and the humid weather allow proliferation of the virus.

They

> accordingly nod yes at my inquiry about pestilential disease -

but - the

> death rates are very low compared to infections according to

the last CDC

> Power Point presentation I saw. [Rey, I appreciate your view of

the

> pleuralistic east-west approach as applied throughout much of

the mainland

> to be a hodge podge. And - I especially appreciate the reading

of your posts.

> However, I find the discussion of Wen Bing and Shang Han

Lun theory relative

> to viral theory useful as do our mainland faculty.]

>

> Will

>

> >

> > >> At the early stages of

> >> the SARS epidemic , they have seen the epidemic as

'Spring

> >> Warm Febrile diseases ' or Chun Wen ; Wind-Heat ' or

Feng Re

> >> which are sub-categories under the broad classification

under

> >> Wen Bing. It is very different from the hodge-podge

mainland

> >> perspective which is always straining to see the Ming

Dynasty

> >> Wu You Xing's

> > >>

> > --

> >

> >

> > Rey,

> >

> >

> > According to my reading, (which is probably the same as

others on this

> > list), Wu developed the theory of li qi in response to

epidemics for which

> > the wen bing methods of the time (1600s AD) were

inadequate, and people

> > were dying in droves. So, while current biases in hospital

based practice

> > in China may show a preference for li qi theory in the SARS

epidemic, there

> > is good historic justification for this choice as well.

> >

> >

> > From what we've seen described, it seems to me that the

wind-warmth

> > category fits better than the spring-warmth. However, it may

be better that

> > these categories should be used flexibly, rather than

assuming that it has

> > to be one or another.

> >

[Guest guest]

And... I just saw on CNN that is now going to be used

in the fight against SARS in Hong Kong. It was headline news, so there

weren't many details. And just a few short years ago the keynote

speaker at a graduation I went to was Julian Scott who stated that

'diseases may become antibiotic resistant, but they'll never be needle

resistant'. He was thinking 20-30 years in the future... but I wonder

how this whole situation now will pan out.

 

Geoff

 

> __________

>

> Message: 3

> Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:40:54 -0000

> " rey tiquia " <rey

> Re: Hongkong CM doctors wants hospital access to SAR...

>

> ,

> WMorris116@A... wrote:

>

> April 18,2003

>

> Dear Will,

>

> First of all I would like to thank you and other CHA rs

> who e-mailed me recently for all your nice comments about my

> recents postings on SARS . I am also glad to hear that the

> Chinese faculty is discusing this important matter -- SARS or

> Atypical pneumonia or fei dian xing feiyan epidemic which as

> everyone knows is now a worldwide epidemic and thus a

> concern for everyone.

[Guest guest]

From the Embassy of the People's Republic of China in the United

Kingdom of the Great Britain and Northern Ireland

 

Traditional Treatment for SARS(08/04/2003)

 

Experts from the World Health Organization said in Guangzhou Monday

that the effect of traditional Chinese herbal medicine on the

treatment of atypical pneumonia needs their further attention and

study.

 

After a discussion with doctors from the Guangdong Provincial

Hospital of Traditional , James Maguire from the WHO

medical team said patients in the hospital have more rapidly

recovered from the disease.

 

Maguire said they need to further study and keep a close watch with

this information about the effect of Chinese medicine on atypical

pneumonia treatment.

 

The hospital has received 112 atypical pneumonia patients during the

past two months. To date, those already cured spent an average of

seven days to bring down their fever caused by the disease and left

the hospital after 18 days.

 

The hospital has used traditional Chinese medicine to help treat

patients while it has also resorted to Western medicine like many

other hospitals.

 

Compared with ordinary pneumonia, the disease can be divided into

the early, middle, climax and late phases, said Lin Lin, a director

of the hospital's respiratory department, adding that they have used

different Chinese medicines on patients according to their different

phases.

 

" The therapy recommended by the Guangdong Provincial Health Bureau

mainly focuses on Western medicine, " Lin said. " But patients have

alleviated their syndromes and shortened their time in hospital

after we used Chinese medicine to help treat the disease. "

 

To date, the mystery disease has struck more than 1,200 people on

the Chinese mainland, of whom 51 have died.

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Geoffrey Hudson "

<list@a...> wrote:

>

> And... I just saw on CNN that is now going to be

used

> in the fight against SARS in Hong Kong. It was headline news, so

there

> weren't many details. And just a few short years ago the keynote

> speaker at a graduation I went to was Julian Scott who stated that

> 'diseases may become antibiotic resistant, but they'll never be

needle

> resistant'. He was thinking 20-30 years in the future... but I

wonder

> how this whole situation now will pan out.

>

> Geoff

>

> > __________

> >

> > Message: 3

> > Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:40:54 -0000

> > " rey tiquia " <rey@a...>

> > Re: Hongkong CM doctors wants hospital access to SAR...

> >

> > ,

> > WMorris116@A... wrote:

> >

> > April 18,2003

> >

> > Dear Will,

> >

> > First of all I would like to thank you and other CHA

rs

> > who e-mailed me recently for all your nice comments about my

> > recents postings on SARS . I am also glad to hear that the

> > Chinese faculty is discusing this important matter -- SARS or

> > Atypical pneumonia or fei dian xing feiyan epidemic which as

> > everyone knows is now a worldwide epidemic and thus a

> > concern for everyone.

[Guest guest]

SHANGHAI, April 17 (Xinhua) -- Shanghai Thursday organized a group

of experts in traditional Chinese medicine to provide guidance in

the fight against Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS), sources

with the local government said.

 

The group, headed by Wu Yingen, professor of The Shanghai University

of Traditional , consists of 10 traditional Chinese

medicine experts from universities and hospitals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Geoffrey Hudson "

<list@a...> wrote:

>

> And... I just saw on CNN that is now going to be

used

> in the fight against SARS in Hong Kong. It was headline news, so

there

> weren't many details. And just a few short years ago the keynote

> speaker at a graduation I went to was Julian Scott who stated that

> 'diseases may become antibiotic resistant, but they'll never be

needle

> resistant'. He was thinking 20-30 years in the future... but I

wonder

> how this whole situation now will pan out.

>

> Geoff

>

> > __________

> >

> > Message: 3

> > Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:40:54 -0000

> > " rey tiquia " <rey@a...>

> > Re: Hongkong CM doctors wants hospital access to SAR...

> >

> > ,

> > WMorris116@A... wrote:

> >

> > April 18,2003

> >

> > Dear Will,

> >

> > First of all I would like to thank you and other CHA

rs

> > who e-mailed me recently for all your nice comments about my

> > recents postings on SARS . I am also glad to hear that the

> > Chinese faculty is discusing this important matter -- SARS or

> > Atypical pneumonia or fei dian xing feiyan epidemic which as

> > everyone knows is now a worldwide epidemic and thus a

> > concern for everyone.

[Guest guest]

At 3:17 PM +0000 4/22/03, James Ramholz wrote:

The hospital has received 112

atypical pneumonia patients during the

past two months. To date, those already cured spent an average of

seven days to bring down their fever caused by the disease and

left

the hospital after 18

days.

--

 

Jim, thanks for posting this article. As is often the case

with such articles, information is presented without the other data

that would help us evaluate the claim. Among the questions that

remain:

 

Were the cases confirmed by laboratory work as meeting the

definition of SARS?

 

If any, how many of their patients died?

 

How do the 7 days and 18 days compare to patients treated

under similar circumstances but without Chinese medicine?

 

And of course...what Chinese medicine was used?

 

Rory

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr wrote:

> Jim, thanks for posting this article. As is often the case with

such articles, information is presented without the other data that

would help us evaluate the claim. Among the questions that remain:

>

> Were the cases confirmed by laboratory work as meeting the

definition of SARS?

>

> If any, how many of their patients died?

>

> How do the 7 days and 18 days compare to patients treated under

> similar circumstances but without Chinese medicine?

>

> And of course...what Chinese medicine was used?

 

 

Rory:

 

The entire story was posted, so you know everything I know. I did a

Google search for TCM and SARS and came up with the two postings.

Everything else repeated what has already been discussed.

 

That and the first cured patient was released. It was a woman who

had only mild symptoms and was treated after only a few days of

development, with steriods and other drugs. But there will probably

be stories coming out later, after the SARS epidemic is over, that

show TCM in a better light---I hope they will be verifiable.

 

The fact that TCM in China has not been officially involved until

this late date is the real news for our profession.

 

 

Jim Ramholz