Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 I was at my quarterly clinical supervisor's meeting a few days ago and one of the supervisors had an interesting complaint. she works exclusively at an off campus seniors clinic. the PCOM clinic forms have a space to list etiology and she was unhappy that age was popping up so much. Of course all the patients were old, now what else. she went on to say that age wasn't an etiological factor anyway. It was not a climate, emotion or miscellaneous cause of disease. Now the question is whether age should be considered an etiological factor despite not being " on the list " . I began to argue that age was an important etiological factor, but was told that was not on the agenda and we moved on. Etiological factors are those things that impact the qi and blood in a way that impairs health. Aging, which leads to vacuity of yin, yang, blood and qi, as well as blood stasis, inevitably also leads to disease and death. Arguably it is a natural process, not a disease factor, but then why do we we try to maintain balance in the contect of other natural processes such as the extremes of climate or the stirring of ones emotions. We certainly must consider the patients age when making diagnosis. Kidney xu is more common in the elderly than the adolescent. And one of the causes of kidney vacuity is most certainly aging. We age because our essence declines. Many modern gerontologists agree that there seems to be an upper normal limit to human longevity and that much chronic disease is just a consequence of living so long. Everyone dies with cancerous cells somewhere in their body. But if you are lucky you die of natural causes which really means your worn out heart stopped pumping while you slept. So even if you keep yourself free of blood and phlegm stasis, eat a wholesome diet, get enough exercise and rest, you will still decline over time under normal circumstances. One's blood is determined by the function of one's spleen and the amount of one's prenatal essence. Both decline over time. The mere fact of aging will make you sick and die. Right? Why do I say normal circumstances? Because I think there may be modern and ancient methods that can thwart this process in part or whole. From tantra to stem cells. But under " natural " conditions, decline and death is inevitable for all. My colleague's point was that what we are really treating is taxation and that is how we should label it. Her point may be well taken. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 , wrote: The mere fact of aging will make you sick and die. Right? >>> And so says Su Wen chapter 1. > My colleague's point was that what we are really treating is taxation and that is how we should label it. Her point may be well taken. >>> Taxation is a general enough concept to apply to the aging process. But for all the reasons you mentioned, as the body fails to maintain and repair itself correctly, problems accumulate and lead to all the myriad diseases of aging. Balanced qi---in the yearly cycle and, by analogy, in one's life---can be maintained only when (1) there is generation without killing, (2) growth without punishment, (3) transformation without restrain, (4) gathering without harm, and (5) storage without repression (Su Wen chapter 70). That is, when all the organs (Phases) function together to support the zheng qi. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 , " fernando b. " wrote: peaceful thoughts, never holding a grudge or allowing the sun to go down on one's wrath, a merry heart is much healthier than daily intake of anti-oxidants. Fernando: I saw a program on TV a number of years ago about people aged over 100. They all had different diets, lifestyles, and backgrounds. The only thing they had in common was an indefatigable positive attitude about life. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 , wrote: Now the question is whether age should be considered an etiological factor despite not being " on the list " . I began to argue that age was an important etiological factor, but was told that was not on the agenda and we moved on. >>> : Many disorders do not have a single etiology, and aging is a consequence of the many errors and general wearing out of the body. Ironically, aging is one area where CM is clearly superior to WM in what it has to offer. And with the greying population, it should be considered an important market. Why wasn't it included on the agenda? Jim Ramholz > > Etiological factors are those things that impact the qi and blood in a way > that impairs health. Aging, which leads to vacuity of yin, yang, blood > and qi, as well as blood stasis, inevitably also leads to disease and > death. Arguably it is a natural process, not a disease factor, but then > why do we we try to maintain balance in the contect of other natural > processes such as the extremes of climate or the stirring of ones emotions. > We certainly must consider the patients age when making diagnosis. > Kidney xu is more common in the elderly than the adolescent. And one of > the causes of kidney vacuity is most certainly aging. We age because our > essence declines. > > Many modern gerontologists agree that there seems to be an upper normal > limit to human longevity and that much chronic disease is just a > consequence of living so long. Everyone dies with cancerous cells > somewhere in their body. But if you are lucky you die of natural causes > which really means your worn out heart stopped pumping while you slept. > So even if you keep yourself free of blood and phlegm stasis, eat a > wholesome diet, get enough exercise and rest, you will still decline over > time under normal circumstances. One's blood is determined by the > function of one's spleen and the amount of one's prenatal essence. Both > decline over time. The mere fact of aging will make you sick and die. > Right? > > Why do I say normal circumstances? Because I think there may be modern > and ancient methods that can thwart this process in part or whole. From > tantra to stem cells. But under " natural " conditions, decline and death > is inevitable for all. > > My colleague's point was that what we are really treating is taxation and > that is how we should label it. Her point may be well taken. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 , " James Ramholz " < jramholz> wrote: > Why wasn't it included on the agenda? > > as I understand it, meetings have agendas and one just just doesn't digress into such offtopic minutiae. too bad. I thought it would have been an interesting debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 First interesting question on this list in a while. I'm going to side with your colleague for two reasons. First, I don't think that age by itself should be considered an etiological factor. CM is based, at least in part, on the Yi Jing (Classic of Change) and the concept of change as a given in phenomenal existence. Everything under the sun (and the sun itself for that matter) undergoes birth, growth, maturation, decline, and death. So for me, age is not necessarily pathological. Neither is death. In fact, what I find pathological is the neurotic attempt to prolong youth and life at any expense. Secondly, as you know, blood stasis and phlegm are both considered secondary disease causes or etiologies, the (three) primary disease causes being 1) external, 2) internal, and 3) neither external nor internal disease causes. Also as you know, Yan De-xin believes that it is qi stagnation and blood stasis which lead to spleen vacuity which then leads to kidney vacuity and all the other mechanisms of aging. While Dr. Yan emphasizes the role of blood stasis, I would say that all six of Zhu Dan-xi's depressions (liu yu) can be seen as secondary disease causes and that it is various combinations of these six that lead to the lack of regulation of the qi mechanism of the viscera and bowels which eventually leads to their vacuity characteristic of aging. If we approach your question in this way, A) we maintain the traditional categorization of disease causes (the san yin or three causes of Chen Yan), and B) we gain a clearer understanding of the aging process -- in my opinion, even clearer than Dr. Yan's exposition in Aging & Blood Stasis. Bob , <@i...> wrote: > I was at my quarterly clinical supervisor's meeting a few days ago and one > of the supervisors had an interesting complaint. she works exclusively at > an off campus seniors clinic. the PCOM clinic forms have a space to list > etiology and she was unhappy that age was popping up so much. Of course > all the patients were old, now what else. she went on to say that age > wasn't an etiological factor anyway. It was not a climate, emotion or > miscellaneous cause of disease. Now the question is whether age should be > considered an etiological factor despite not being " on the list " . I began > to argue that age was an important etiological factor, but was told that > was not on the agenda and we moved on. > > Etiological factors are those things that impact the qi and blood in a way > that impairs health. Aging, which leads to vacuity of yin, yang, blood > and qi, as well as blood stasis, inevitably also leads to disease and > death. Arguably it is a natural process, not a disease factor, but then > why do we we try to maintain balance in the contect of other natural > processes such as the extremes of climate or the stirring of ones emotions. > We certainly must consider the patients age when making diagnosis. > Kidney xu is more common in the elderly than the adolescent. And one of > the causes of kidney vacuity is most certainly aging. We age because our > essence declines. > > Many modern gerontologists agree that there seems to be an upper normal > limit to human longevity and that much chronic disease is just a > consequence of living so long. Everyone dies with cancerous cells > somewhere in their body. But if you are lucky you die of natural causes > which really means your worn out heart stopped pumping while you slept. > So even if you keep yourself free of blood and phlegm stasis, eat a > wholesome diet, get enough exercise and rest, you will still decline over > time under normal circumstances. One's blood is determined by the > function of one's spleen and the amount of one's prenatal essence. Both > decline over time. The mere fact of aging will make you sick and die. > Right? > > Why do I say normal circumstances? Because I think there may be modern > and ancient methods that can thwart this process in part or whole. From > tantra to stem cells. But under " natural " conditions, decline and death > is inevitable for all. > > My colleague's point was that what we are really treating is taxation and > that is how we should label it. Her point may be well taken. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 , " Bob Flaws " < pemachophel2001> wrote: CM is based, at least in part, on the Yi Jing (Classic of Change) and > the concept of change as a given in phenomenal existence. Everything > under the sun (and the sun itself for that matter) undergoes birth, > growth, maturation, decline, and death. So for me, age is not > necessarily pathological. Neither is death. 1. did you feel different when you were younger? 2. is it necessary or desirable to do anything medically to slow aging. Can it occur without disease (i.e. just slow decline?)? I believe the nei jing says this is true, but evidence suggests otherwise. Everyone dies with disease. Is this normal or a consequence of modern living or living against the laws of nature? finally, I do not think chinese medicine or any medicine cultivates natural processes. I think medicine attempts to defy nature at every turn. nature doesn't cast steel to make needles or write books classifying herbs. Man does. Why should this attempt stop as we near death? It may be vain and neurotic, but that appears to be the case for all of life. It also is interesting. Unless there is some reward to just following the cycles fo death and rebirth, it is of no interest to me. On the other hand, if I die tomorrow in a blaze of glory, so be it. I think humanity and culture are all about transcending the limitations of biology. whether that means wearing clothes, building fires or forestalling death. who is to say that the true path of humankind is not godhood? While mainstream confucian ideas certainly support the importance of death in the cycles of life, their are also taoist streams of physical immortality that pervade chinese thought for all of history. the way I figure it, growing old and dying must be easy because everyone does it. I am much more curious about the other possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 When I was younger, I was a Nyngmapa yogi with a talent for magic. I learned how to do a number of things which many people would consider very awesome. However, it takes a lot of time and effort to do some of these things -- like three months or more in solitary confinement meditating and saying mantram around the clock. I don't do any of that now. For me, the powers I sought to gain were not worth the pain and effort. Similarly, my lineage was big into Tibetan chu-len or alchemy, seeking to obtain a deathless "rainbow" body. We had practices of both internal and external alchemy which resulted in being able to live without eating solid food. But, frankly, when I realized how much work and how limiting such a life-style was, I abandoned that quest. >>>>Dido alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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