Age and etiology

[Guest guest]

 

 

> 1. did you feel different when you were younger?

 

No, I did not. Like many young people, I expended a lot of time and

energy trying to " gild the lily. " I originally wrote " wasted " instead

of " expended. " However, on reflection, any experience which is the

cause for eventually leading one to greater wisdom is not wasted.

Having expended prodigious, unusual, even heroic (or so my teachers

told me) amounts of energy on slowing aging and achieving long life in

my youth, perhaps, ironically, I have developed commensurate wisdom in

return -- the wisdom of not being very interested in this now.

 

> 2. is it necessary or desirable to do anything medically to slow

aging. Can it

> occur without disease (i.e. just slow decline?)? I believe the nei

jing says this

> is true, but evidence suggests otherwise.

 

You have two questions here. First, is it desirable or necessary to do

anything medically to slow aging? That's probably an individual

decision and not something that can or should be answered by

philosophizing doctors. If you think you should or you want to slow

your aging process, then that's what you should do. I don't think

there's some larger, univeral imperative here though. We each choose

to spend our qi as we see fit. Some spend it more profligately and

others more sparingly. Should Beethoven be taken to task for

burning his candle at both ends? One way or another, we all die sooner

or later. For me, the measure of a life well lived is not health or

longevity. It's what you do with your life, what you contributed to

the greater whole, what you've added to the sum total that's

important. I believe St. Francis of Assissi died in his early 40s

due to total exhaustion.

 

Secondly, does aging occur in the absence of disease (bing)? I would

answer this most definitely so. I have no diagnosable disease, but I'm

still aging. Perhaps the real question is anyone truly healthly? I

would answet that no. There's only relative health, not absolute

health. From that point of view, I think you most certainly can have

aging without labelable disease. I guess what I'm getting at here is

that essentially everyone by the time they are adults presents a

pattern (zheng) of disharmony even though they do not necessary

present a disease (bing).

 

> finally, I do not think chinese medicine or any medicine cultivates

natural processes. I think medicine attempts to defy nature at every

turn.

 

I agree that, as humans, we attempt to shape nature. I think that's an

implicit part of the Chinese teaching of the san cai, the three powers

(heaven, humanity, and earth). Humans are as much an active factor in

reality as heaven and earth. To use a Buddhist term, we are all

co-dependent. Our actions affect the whole. The more we consciously

understand the whole, the more freedom we have to work on that whole.

However, as doctors and as individuals, it is always wise to keep in

mind the cost-benefit and benefit-risk ratios. Everything has a price.

 

When I was younger, I was a Nyngmapa yogi with a talent for magic. I

learned how to do a number of things which many people would consider

very awesome. However, it takes a lot of time and effort to do some of

these things -- like three months or more in solitary confinement

meditating and saying mantram around the clock. I don't do any of that

now. For me, the powers I sought to gain were not worth the pain and

effort. Similarly, my lineage was big into Tibetan chu-len or alchemy,

seeking to obtain a deathless " rainbow " body. We had practices of both

internal and external alchemy which resulted in being able to live

without eating solid food. But, frankly, when I realized how much work

and how limiting such a life-style was, I abandoned that quest.

 

According to my teachers, none of that has anything particularly to do

with enlightenment in any case. You can be enlightened and have zero

supranormal powers and you can have all sorts of supranormal powers

and not be enlightened. In fact, supranormal powers are very likely to

lead you astray. Lots of Asians, just like lots of everyone else, get

very confused about all of this. So there are all sorts of teachings

created by all sorts of people, some wise, some no so wise.

 

Your point that aging is easy because everyone is able to do it is

cute. Actually, from one point of view, aging is really difficult and

it is not for the young or faint of heart. You could say it takes a

life-time of hard-won wisdom to be able to age gracefully. In any

case, do what you will, you are going to age and you are going to die,

Chinese medicine or no.

 

So, what did you accomplish today?

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

I agree with Bob Flaws on this one. I don't think that age by itself is an

etiological factor. Not only is change a part of the cycle of life but to

defy or deny aging goes against the natural cycle. Certainly, as Bob

points out, we can age more or less gracefully and we can age with more or

less ease (i.e. more or less disease) but we all must age and eventually

die. What we can do with Chinese medicine is to help to reduce the

suffering of those beings who experience it and wish to alleviate

it. While this could be viewed as an " attempt to defy nature " it can also

be viewed as a compassionate act to reduce the discomfort of aging and to

ease individuals into aging in a more graceful and supportive way. Remember

that in many cultures (including traditional China) it is only when we are

aged that we become wise and that our opinions really start to matter. And

it is those who participate in life and have the experience of life among

the community and who share their experience who become the valued elders -

and in many ways are more revered than those who live a life of secluded

solitude, searching for ways to prolong life.

 

Marnae

 

Marnae C. Ergil, M.A, M.S., L.Ac.

Huntington Herbs & Acupuncture

(631) 549-6755

[Guest guest]

, Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...>

wrote:

Remember

> that in many cultures (including traditional China) it is only when we are

> aged that we become wise and that our opinions really start to matter. And

> it is those who participate in life and have the experience of life among

> the community and who share their experience who become the valued

elders -

 

and yet in our own culture, the elderly in power are usually self serving old

men doing terrible things for their own sake and the sake of their friends. In

the past 40 years, I think youth has exposed the folly of the elderly and led

the

way to new insights on countless occasions. Even our own field of TCM only

exists because youth explored eastern ways in the 60's and 70's. It would

never have happened if the decision was left to the powers that be. Perhaps

ideally age generates wisdom, but only in the absence of phlegm obstructing

the orifices of the mind. Until people live a life of health, age will only

result in

unclear thinking and feeble mindedness. Having said that, I agree the goal of

medicine should be graceful aging, not physical immortality. The latter only

interests me because it interests me. But I do not believe that the mere fact

of

age yields wisdom; and blind deference to the old and powerful is fraught with

as many pitfalls as pearls.

 

[Guest guest]

Years ago, Nakazono Sensei in Santa Fee taught that you needed to have at least 10 years clinical experience before attempting to teach. In art there's the saying that, "Everyone juvenalia is juvenile."

>>>>And in WM they say see one, do one, teach one

alon

[Guest guest]

Even our own field of TCM only exists because youth explored eastern

ways in the 60's and 70's. It would never have happened if the

decision was left to the powers that be.

 

True, but as I believe Mark Twain said, " If you're not a radical at

20, you have no heart; if you're not conservative at 60, you have no

brain. " It seems to me that one of the problems with our particular

field is that, because of the high turnover, we keep getting many new

practitioners with the sophmoric ideas characteristic of relative

neophytes. From where I sit, I do not see the field as a whole

maturing the way I would like to see it given that we have been at

this now for close to 30 years. One only has to look at AT to see that

many in our field have some pretty immature ideas characteristic of

where some of us were 20-30 years ago. I don't see much of a

" leavening " effect by the " elders " of our profession since, by and

large, they either don't exist or don't participate in the active life

of the larger profession.

 

Again, I think much of the blame for this (if, in fact, this

situation does truly exist) rests with the schools. Too many schools

hire teachers who are too " young, " not necessarily chronologically too

young, but too young in the medicine. Years ago, Nakazono Sensei in

Santa Fee taught that you needed to have at least 10 years clinical

experience before attempting to teach. In art there's the saying

that, " Everyone juvenalia is juvenile. " Would that I had heeded his

teaching. Another teacher said that one should not attempt to teach

this medicine without being able to read Chinese. Given the state of

our schools, he felt that was the only way to really educate yourself

to a " doctoral " level, (remembering that the word " doctor " actually

means teacher or leader). At the time, I was too sophmoric to

understand the wisdom of these teachers' advice. As it's also said,

" The wise man's wisdom is folly to the fool. "

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

 

> So, what did you accomplish today?

>

> Bob

 

 

oops. I left out that pesky devil's advocate disclaimer again. I just turned

40

and while I do like looking a bit younger than my years, I have to say that life

is more satisfying with each passing decade. I like to think I am just living

out

my natural lifespan slowly. Will I feel the same if I can no longer function

in

any meaningful way. We'll see. Certainly there are tales of those who can

work hard and make merry till the day they die at 120. that would work for me.

But would I take a stem cell transplant. sure. same as I would take ginseng.

I

suppose the limit of one's lifespan is whatever one can achieve with quality of

life intact.

 

today I graded papers, made arrangement for the CHA conference and

worked on a new class. small things, but hopefully contributing to a larger

goal. :-)

 

[Guest guest]

>>>Mark Twain - conservative?  Hmm. Well, almost nothing old Sam said was

without irony.<<<

 

To hopefully set the record straight, I believe it was Benjamin Disraeli, the archconservative 1800s British politician who continually traded the prime-ministership with his liberal rival William Gladstone, who said something like:

 

"A man who is not a liberal in his youth has no heart, and who is not a conservative in his old age has no brain." Of course William Gladstone disagreed, as I bet Mark Twain would have.

Joseph Garner

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

 

>

> True, but as I believe Mark Twain said, " If you're not a radical at

> 20, you have no heart; if you're not conservative at 60, you have no

> brain. "

 

thus they both have their value. blind dismissal of youthful passion or blind

acceptance of elderly wisdom, blind anything, is problematic.

 

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

>

>

> > 1. did you feel different when you were younger?

>

> No, I did not.

 

> Having expended prodigious, unusual, even heroic (or so my teachers

> told me) amounts of energy on slowing aging and achieving long life in

> my youth, perhaps, ironically, I have developed commensurate wisdom in

> return -- the wisdom of not being very interested in this now.

 

Are these contradictory statements. It appears you were very interested in

physical longevity in your youth? that is certainly the idea I got from your

early

writings likes prince wen hui's cook. I know your position has changed, but I

am curious when did it change? You said ages makes one conservative and

brings wisdom. perhaps that is only apparent after one gets there. I often

give my students advice about lifestyle and discipline and studies that I would

not have taken when I was their age. Yet I changed my view over time

through personal experience. I think the best we can hope for is that we have

open minds and accept change when it is upon us.

 

[Guest guest]

I think Traditionally Chinese medicine is more " quantity of life " issues. In

America, especially Santa Cruz, CA. the issue is more " Quality of Life " .

Meaning that the patient (at least in Santa Cruz) is coming into the office

not so much that they can get back to work productively but more so that

they can get back to work and feel good about working - and life. This is my

thought as I understand TCM as reorganized by the communists at that time to

the present.

 

Western medicine has the same approach as TCM.

Keep the patient as productive as possible then send them home to die.

ONLY recently has HOSPICE forced a change to the western medicine approach.

Viewing life and death as natural. Hospice eases that movement along. The

quality of life - at the moment of death - is the focus.

 

This Hospice position is (slowly) gaining momentum within western medicine,

thankfully. I feel that this approach is Classical (Nei

Jing/ Su Wen). Long life not viewed as chronological age but as a

fulfillment. Treatment aimed at maintaining a prosperous " quality " life

therefore no regrets at death. Honor and dignity.

 

This would make for a good practice in Santa Cruz, except because of quality

of life issues those patients don't work - and therefore can't pay for

visits - and those that are working are too busy making money to care.

 

 

BTW, I have a five year old daughter and another daughter on the way (July)

so I do hope this is all not just theory.

 

 

thank you for listening,

 

ed kasper lac, santa cruz, ca

 

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