Guest guest Posted May 4, 2003 Report Share Posted May 4, 2003 I was thinking about how one might either debase or enhance one's practice with modern medical knowledge. As you know, it interests me whether a battery of lab tests would show any correlation with CM patterns. there is much work in china to suggest this is true. According to Scheid much of this work was designed to further the goals of the bian xing crowd. Biomedical diagnosis of types would be the piece de resistance, replacing tongue and pulse. This is what really bothers traditionalists. It never panned out this way, though. I do not believe that patterns (as opposed to types) could ever be fully understood by biomedical testing anyway. However I suspect there would be some overlap. At least some patients would show certain lab tests in common for certain patterns. This would make the information useful, though not definitive. In an integrated medical setting, I envision a battery of lab tests revealing no standard western pathology in say a CFIDs patient, but the tests do suggest a possible zang fu imbalance. The tests are not sufficient to diagnose or treat, but sufficient to make a referral to an L.ac. who could then make a complex pattern diagnosis and prescribe accordingly. In addition, if you can prove the lab tests change by applying the herbs, then you not only prove CM works empirically, but that its theories are not only internally valid, but also externally verifiable. This would be essentially analogous to what both Jim often talk about, which is detecting physiological imbalances in the pulse. I suppose if you detected hypothyroid in the pulse, you might refer the pt. to an MD to confirm with a lab test. Same difference. All new ideas and technologies can be used or abused. We can't reject them merely because they are new. Once upon a time the naturalistic theories of the nei jing were revolutionary in the demon placating environment in which they were spawned. This was a major shift in emphasis on how to understand the body and practice medicine. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2003 Report Share Posted May 4, 2003 While I am not an opponent of integrative medicine per se, I am more an advocate of 'intelligent' integration. My point in my last posting was that I think our knowledge base in the West and percentage of experienced practitioners is still too weak to integrate effectively, without being overwhelmed by the sheer strength and databank of biomedicine. It is still too easy for students to access any information they need from biomedical sources, and we have too little English language literature and few Western practitioners who can read the Chinese (or Japanese, Korean) databanks of our own medicine. This in and of itself leads to a bias away from pattern differentiation even in our field. Certainly, I think cooperation between strong practitioners of a strong tradition in Chinese medicine can interface without too much difficulty with biomedicine, especially using the example you give below of confirming pulse data with blood tests and the like. I will sometimes recommend hormone testing for women when I feel an overly slippery pulse with signs like abnormal facial hair growth, for example, or an unusually wiry pulse in the third position on both wrists, as confirmation. Here, however, there are limitations. We also treat emotional/psychological disorders, and the influences of emotions on health can often be felt in the pulse, but not necessarily show up in biomedical testing. On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 03:02 PM, wrote: > I was thinking about how one might either debase or enhance one's > practice with modern medical knowledge. As you know, it interests me > whether a battery of lab tests would show any correlation with CM > patterns. there is much work in china to suggest this is true. > According to Scheid much of this work was designed to further the > goals of the bian xing crowd. Biomedical diagnosis of types would be > the piece de resistance, replacing tongue and pulse. This is what > really bothers traditionalists. It never panned out this way, though. > I do not believe that patterns (as opposed to types) could ever be > fully understood by biomedical testing anyway. However I suspect > there would be some overlap. At least some patients would show > certain lab tests in common for certain patterns. This would make the > information useful, though not definitive. In an integrated medical > setting, I envision a battery of lab tests revealing no standard > western pathology in say a CFIDs patient, but the tests do suggest a > possible zang fu imbalance. The tests are not sufficient to diagnose > or treat, but sufficient to make a referral to an L.ac. who could then > make a complex pattern diagnosis and prescribe accordingly. In > addition, if you can prove the lab tests change by applying the herbs, > then you not only prove CM works empirically, but that its theories > are not only internally valid, but also externally verifiable. This > would be essentially analogous to what both Jim often talk about, > which is detecting physiological imbalances in the pulse. I suppose > if you detected hypothyroid in the pulse, you might refer the pt. to > an MD to confirm with a lab test. Same difference. All new ideas and > technologies can be used or abused. We can't reject them merely > because they are new. Once upon a time the naturalistic theories of > the nei jing were revolutionary in the demon placating environment in > which they were spawned. This was a major shift in emphasis on how to > understand the body and practice medicine. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2003 Report Share Posted May 4, 2003 , " " wrote: > Here, however, there are limitations. We also treat > emotional/psychological disorders, and the influences of emotions on health can often be felt in the pulse, but not necessarily show up in biomedical testing. >>> Z'ev: This is one of the major strengths of CM, but one of the greatest failings of CM education. Pulse diagnosis all but doesn't exist in China anymore, and is largely lost in the US because of lack of training. There is already sufficient literature in translation to turn this around and, at least, do the basic work in the Li Shi Zhen. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2003 Report Share Posted May 4, 2003 I agree 100%. On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 03:38 PM, James Ramholz wrote: > Z'ev: > > This is one of the major strengths of CM, but one of the greatest > failings of CM education. Pulse diagnosis all but doesn't exist in > China anymore, and is largely lost in the US because of lack of > training. There is already sufficient literature in translation to > turn this around and, at least, do the basic work in the Li Shi Zhen. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2003 Report Share Posted May 4, 2003 hi, recently I found one pf the product name pear loquat syrup that really work for throat and helps loose phlemp. --- James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: > , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " wrote: > > Here, however, there are limitations. We also > treat > > emotional/psychological disorders, and the > influences of emotions > on health can often be felt in the pulse, but not > necessarily show > up in biomedical testing. >>> > > > Z'ev: > > This is one of the major strengths of CM, but one of > the greatest > failings of CM education. Pulse diagnosis all but > doesn't exist in > China anymore, and is largely lost in the US because > of lack of > training. There is already sufficient literature in > translation to > turn this around and, at least, do the basic work in > the Li Shi Zhen. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.