Guest guest Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Re; " shortened " programs for MD's etc. An M.D by definition is one highly trained individual. As a group they represent the crème de crop _of any_ student body. Most - if not all - American Acupuncture Colleges are barely high school level. [viewed from my personal experience of 3 California Bay area acupuncture schools in the 1980-90s] Certainly our schools are not at the doctoral level that these sponges are at. I have listened to much discussion about raising the standards of our profession. Reality is our existing structure does not (yet) support an undergraduate program. A college graduate and a bored certified practicing MD are at different learning parameters. Where I would quickly burn out the MD would be _as quickly_ bored. The challenge is not for the MD to learn (they have that proven ability) The challenge is not to gather willing students (they are there with $$$$$) The challenge is to our academia. Quite whining. Either produce excellence or get out of the way. There are sincere MD's and other students - who are seeking to learn. Publish or Perish ... Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA. Acupuncture is a jab well done Mon, 05 May 2003 00:50:01 -0000 " James Ramholz " <jramholz Re: plurality , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: > > Jim, ... > I agree that if we do not pitch up and start getting involved in the integration in this country, we will indeed see our " techniques " ususrped by the DC's, MD's etc - and yet, (just playing devil's advocate here) why then do we insist that ACAOM accredited schools should not be teaching " shortened " programs for MD's etc. Certainly 200 - 300 hours is insufficient but mightn't it be better for us to create a 1000 hour program geared to these folks and teach it ourselves so that they learn from us rather than from others who did shortened training? This way we might become the people who are looked to as the really well trained - and we could work to change the hearts and minds of those in these programs so that they understand the depth of the theory and how important it is to the practice. >>> --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release 4/24/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Ed, > > The challenge is not for the MD to learn (they have that proven ability) > The challenge is not to gather willing students (they are there with $$$$$) > The challenge is to our academia. > > Quite whining. Either produce excellence or get out of the way. > There are sincere MD's and other students - who are seeking to learn. Very well put! Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Ed, I get some of the humor (and serious points) behind your post, but for me it doesn't address the issue of short courses for M.D.'s in acupuncture or herbal medicine. No matter how brilliant one's medical training is, it won't prepare one for the study of solid-state physics. One will have to take the entire program. Granted, there is a lot of biomedicine in the TCM colleges, and that could be skipped (of course). And, yes, I agree that the TCM college programs are an evolving concern.. . but I think the quality is improving leaps and bounds (at least at PCOM, and schools such as Touro, Emperor's, ACTCM and others represented on this site). Your challenge is well-noted. However, I still don't think it is any excuse for an MD to practice Chinese medicine with a 100 hour course. Along with the lack of knowledge or practical in such a course, little of the elegance of CM theory can be communicated in such a short period of time. One has to learn a lot, and in some ways, overcome one's bias. I don't think an MD would get bored with a quality program, because CM is challenging when not viewed through the bias of biomedicine. On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 03:37 PM, Ed Kasper LAc. www.HappyHerbalist.com wrote: > Re; " shortened " programs for MD's etc. > > An M.D by definition is one highly trained individual. > As a group they represent the crème de crop _of any_ student body. > > Most - if not all - American Acupuncture Colleges are barely high > school > level. [viewed from my personal experience of 3 California Bay area > acupuncture schools in the 1980-90s] Certainly our schools are not at > the > doctoral level that these sponges are at. > > I have listened to much discussion about raising the standards of our > profession. Reality is our existing structure does not (yet) support an > undergraduate program. > > A college graduate and a bored certified practicing MD are at different > learning parameters. Where I would quickly burn out the MD would be _as > quickly_ bored. > > The challenge is not for the MD to learn (they have that proven > ability) > The challenge is not to gather willing students (they are there with > $$$$$) > The challenge is to our academia. > > Quite whining. Either produce excellence or get out of the way. > There are sincere MD's and other students - who are seeking to learn. > > Publish or Perish ... > Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Quite whining. Either produce excellence or get out of the way.There are sincere MD's and other students - who are seeking to learn.Publish or Perish ...Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA. Dear Ed, I commend you for the powerful statement you made and would personally take it even further. When I was in Western medical school, I was not aware of any 300 hour or even 1000 hour quickie program that could have gotten me the same information and a fast track credential. The whole notion that a quickie acupuncture training credential should be available to MD's is completely absurd. Let me exemplify. Dr. Douglas Ousterhout here in San Francisco is a reconstructive surgeon specializing in facial reconstruction. After completing his 7 year surgical residency and his 3 year subspecialty residency, he went on to dentistry school and got a DDS. Then he had the unmitigated gall to do the equivalent of a doctoral research on comparative anatomy of male and female facial and skull bones and publish the finest atlas of its kind in the field. He's in his 60s and still at the top of his field at Davies Hospital in San Francisco. I can tell you dozens more stories like this. Of my class of 223 students more than half already had masters and doctorates. I believe Ed's comments should be taken seriously. The CM schools in the San Francisco Bay area have a long way to go to even be rigorous from the perspective of a masters degree. From the perspective of an American medical doctor from any American medical school, the local TCM colleges should be granting bachelor of science degrees. Bear in mind that the Bay area has two of the top five American medical schools in the country: Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, U.C. San Francisco and Stanford. The valedictorian of my University of Texas (San Antonio) medical school could not have matched at a San Francisco residency. When you put these things in perspective, you realize your mission is to simply do what you can to bring Chinese medicine in any way we can to America. We all have our own humble bit of Light to shine. Don't worry about the MDs. What ever route you give them, they'll muddle through ... maybe even gallop through. My recommendation is raise the bar for everyone and make the MDs clear the same credential as everyone else. One last item: easy on the hubris. Teaching people with MDs could be rewarding, but don't count on them to look up to you. I'm pretty sure they'll be able to figure out, even at a glance, who the masters of Chinese medicine are ... and who aren't. The MDs are the ones who went through the internships and residencies in acute care, remember? Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Z'ev wrote: And, yes, I agree that the TCM college programs are an evolving concern.. . but I think the quality is improving leaps and bounds (at least at PCOM, and schools such as Touro, Emperor's, ACTCM and others represented on this site). Your challenge is well-noted. Julie Adds: And Yo San University, thank you. Z'ev said: However, I still don't think it is any excuse for an MD to practice Chinese medicine with a 100 hour course. Along with the lack of knowledge or practical in such a course, little of the elegance of CM theory can be communicated in such a short period of time. One has to learn a lot, and in some ways, overcome one's bias. I don't think an MD would get bored with a quality program, because CM is challenging when not viewed through the bias of biomedicine. Julie replies: The MDs we have had in our program were far from bored, in fact most of them did not finish the program, because it was too challenging, and exhausting, for them to put aside all their western training. At least two did finish. They have chosen to practice Chinese medicine in all its depth and holism, versus the medicine of their original training. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 I commend you for the powerful statement you made and would personally take it even further. When I was in Western medical school, I was not aware of any 300 hour or even 1000 hour quickie program that could have gotten me the same information and a fast track credential. > >>>>That is not completely true. MDs routinely go to seminars and learn very complex techniques over 30-300 hours and are then considered capable of practicing these techniques, and receive certificates. I can tell you for example that people going through orthopedic medicine training (a post graduate non-surgical approach) often get around 300 hours of training and many become quite capable. I have taught MDs for many years now and the quality of learning of many is at a different level than we see with OM programs. Reading a whole text before a weekend course is quite expectable for them. And many can remember much of what they read. It is difficult to get OM practitioners to review a 40 pg handout in detail. Like you, i think we do not need to worry about what MDs are doing and work on ourselves. We need to become the undisputed experts in the field, in such a way that a modern society can recognize this. That means a much more integrated education, fortunately or unfortunately alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Z'ev. thankfully schools have come a loooong way. There was also a time when M.D.'s just grandfathered themselves in (or tried to). Yet they still showed up at our schools to learn. I just attended another one of Alon Marcus's workshops on Musculoskeletal Disorders. Kevin McNamee has a shorter similar course as well. My question is why are these courses _not taught_ as a basic in our schools. IMHO, its not now a question of quality dedicated teachers and readable reference books. [Alon, Kevin, Morris, Jim Ramholz, Z'ev, Andrew Wu and many others] The Qi is there. The M.D does represent quality students. These M.D's are the ones taking the risk. They have tremendous pressure to comply. Challenge them -- All students love a challenge. The infra-structure is what's breaking apart. It should. The first hexagram Ch'ien / The Creative An opportunity to be better than anybody ever expected to be possible. Ed Kasper, LAc Santa Cruz, CA. Mon, 5 May 2003 18:03:06 -0700 " " <zrosenbe Re: RE: plurality academia challenged Ed, I get some of the humor (and serious points) behind your post, but for me it doesn't address the issue of short courses for M.D.'s in acupuncture or herbal medicine. No matter how brilliant one's medical training is, it won't prepare one for the study of solid-state physics. One will have to take the entire program. Granted, there is a lot of biomedicine in the TCM colleges, and that could be skipped (of course). And, yes, I agree that the TCM college programs are an evolving concern.. . but I think the quality is improving leaps and bounds (at least at PCOM, and schools such as Touro, Emperor's, ACTCM and others represented on this site). Your challenge is well-noted. However, I still don't think it is any excuse for an MD to practice Chinese medicine with a 100 hour course. Along with the lack of knowledge or practical in such a course, little of the elegance of CM theory can be communicated in such a short period of time. One has to learn a lot, and in some ways, overcome one's bias. I don't think an MD would get bored with a quality program, because CM is challenging when not viewed through the bias of biomedicine. Mon, 5 May 2003 20:50:11 -0700 " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen Re: RE: plurality academia challenged Quite whining. Either produce excellence or get out of the way. There are sincere MD's and other students - who are seeking to learn. Publish or Perish ... Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA. Dear Ed, I commend you for the powerful statement you made and would personally take it even further. When I was in Western medical school, I was not aware of any 300 hour or even 1000 hour quickie program that could have gotten me the same information and a fast track credential. The whole notion that a quickie acupuncture training credential should be available to MD's is completely absurd. Let me exemplify. Dr. Douglas Ousterhout here in San Francisco is a reconstructive surgeon specializing in facial reconstruction. After completing his 7 year surgical residency and his 3 year subspecialty residency, he went on to dentistry school and got a DDS. Then he had the unmitigated gall to do the equivalent of a doctoral research on comparative anatomy of male and female facial and skull bones and publish the finest atlas of its kind in the field. He's in his 60s and still at the top of his field at Davies Hospital in San Francisco. I can tell you dozens more stories like this. Of my class of 223 students more than half already had masters and doctorates. I believe Ed's comments should be taken seriously. The CM schools in the San Francisco Bay area have a long way to go to even be rigorous from the perspective of a masters degree. From the perspective of an American medical doctor from any American medical school, the local TCM colleges should be granting bachelor of science degrees. Bear in mind that the Bay area has two of the top five American medical schools in the country: Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, U.C. San Francisco and Stanford. The valedictorian of my University of Texas (San Antonio) medical school could not have matched at a San Francisco residency. When you put these things in perspective, you realize your mission is to simply do what you can to bring Chinese medicine in any way we can to America. We all have our own humble bit of Light to shine. Don't worry about the MDs. What ever route you give them, they'll muddle through ... maybe even gallop through. My recommendation is raise the bar for everyone and make the MDs clear the same credential as everyone else. One last item: easy on the hubris. Teaching people with MDs could be rewarding, but don't count on them to look up to you. I'm pretty sure they'll be able to figure out, even at a glance, who the masters of Chinese medicine are ... and who aren't. The MDs are the ones who went through the internships and residencies in acute care, remember? Emmanuel Segmen --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release 4/24/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Hi Alon, Actually I was being facetious and meant that there was no 300 or 1,000 hour programs for becoming certified as an MD. So I didn't think MDs should be given a break regarding certification in Chinese medicine. However, your post is rich with advice is much to the point. My thesis is you don't need to lighten the load for your MD students. It seems you would concur. Emmanuel Segmen Emmanuel wrote: I commend you for the powerful statement you made and would personally take it even further. When I was in Western medical school, I was not aware of any 300 hour or even 1000 hour quickie program that could have gotten me the same information and a fast track credential. > Alon Wrote: >>>>That is not completely true. MDs routinely go to seminars and learn very complex techniques over 30-300 hours and are then considered capable of practicing these techniques, and receive certificates. I can tell you for example that people going through orthopedic medicine training (a post graduate non-surgical approach) often get around 300 hours of training and many become quite capable. I have taught MDs for many years now and the quality of learning of many is at a different level than we see with OM programs. Reading a whole text before a weekend course is quite expectable for them. And many can remember much of what they read. It is difficult to get OM practitioners to review a 40 pg handout in detail. Like you, i think we do not need to worry about what MDs are doing and work on ourselves. We need to become the undisputed experts in the field, in such a way that a modern society can recognize this. That means a much more integrated education, fortunately or unfortunately alonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 My thesis is you don't need to lighten the load for your MD students. It seems you would concur >>Agreed but also give them credit for what they already learned alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Z'ev Thanks for saying it so well. Marnae --- <zrosenbe wrote: Ed, I get some of the humor (and serious points) behind your post, but for me it doesn't address the issue of short courses for M.D.'s in acupuncture or herbal medicine. No matter how brilliant one's medical training is, it won't prepare one for the study of solid-state physics. One will have to take the entire program. Granted, there is a lot of biomedicine in the TCM colleges, and that could be skipped (of course). And, yes, I agree that the TCM college programs are an evolving concern.. . but I think the quality is improving leaps and bounds (at least at PCOM, and schools such as Touro, Emperor's, ACTCM and others represented on this site). Your challenge is well-noted. However, I still don't think it is any excuse for an MD to practice Chinese medicine with a 100 hour course. Along with the lack of knowledge or practical in such a course, little of the elegance of CM theory can be communicated in such a short period of time. One has to learn a lot, and in some ways, overcome one's bias. I don't think an MD would get bored with a quality program, because CM is challenging when not viewed through the bias of biomedicine. On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 03:37 PM, Ed Kasper LAc. www.HappyHerbalist.com wrote: > Re; " shortened " programs for MD's etc. > > An M.D by definition is one highly trained individual. > As a group they represent the crème de crop _of any_ student body. > > Most - if not all - American Acupuncture Colleges are barely high > school > level. [viewed from my personal experience of 3 California Bay area > acupuncture schools in the 1980-90s] Certainly our schools are not at > the > doctoral level that these sponges are at. > > I have listened to much discussion about raising the standards of our > profession. Reality is our existing structure does not (yet) support an > undergraduate program. > > A college graduate and a bored certified practicing MD are at different > learning parameters. Where I would quickly burn out the MD would be _as > quickly_ bored. > > The challenge is not for the MD to learn (they have that proven > ability) > The challenge is not to gather willing students (they are there with > $$$$$) > The challenge is to our academia. > > Quite whining. Either produce excellence or get out of the way. > There are sincere MD's and other students - who are seeking to learn. > > Publish or Perish ... > Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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