Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 My colleague Bob Damone was very excited the other day to tell me about his new translation discovery. Bob is an herbalist who has been studying chinese for about 15 years. He is currently translating Jiao Shu de's volume on formulas for paradigm. He is not well known, but he is well respected by the publishing houses specializing in translation and many of the top schools. Anyway Bob was excited about his new sheet fed scanner. He said he could feed pages copied from chinese medical texts into the scanner. Then he converts the scanned images to a text file in WORD. Then he opens the file in wenlin (a chinese character software). When he places the cursor over the characters in wenlin, the program gives the definitions of the terms. According to Bob, wenlin has lots of medical terms already and it may be linked with a more extensive TCM database at some point in the future. So I assumed that what he meant was that a person such as myself could get a very rough sense of what an article was about using this method, but not much more. But Bob insisted that one could actually get extensive useful detailed practical information by doing this (if one knew basic chinese grammar, of course). I will hope to see what he means early next week when I get a demonstration. I take Bob very seriously on this matter. He is not one to overestimate the value of technology or minimize the need to deep study. Quite the contrary, actually. Perhaps I am just reporting something already well known to many of you, but I had not heard this before. It does strike me that using this methodology to access chinese language material is akin to the method Bob Flaws describes in his book on the subject. In that book, Bob suggests a method that centers around learning by doing. Basically sitting there with a dictionary and translating the characters one by one. Beginning with a basic grammar and a handful of characters one adds to vocabulary with each successive translation. This is an effective method for some people (but not for all). I believe this method of using wenlin essentially substitutes for the process of identifying the characters in a stroke order dictionary. It may thus not convey the essence of chinese medicine that some say is contained in the actual characters, but it may on the other hand provide access to considerable data not currently available to those who do not read chinese. Plus the act of using wenlin in this way will serve to educate the user in chinese each time he scans a page. Now I know full well that one would retain characters better if they are actually written and looked up the old fashioned way frequently. But if the bottom line on gaining access to chinese sources is to keep up on modern texts, recent journals and classical case literature (as opposed to reading complex treatises or classic texts), then this technology might be a great springboard towards this end. There will be a language learning exhibition at the redwing booth at the CHA conference in June. I believe we may have an opportunity to demonstrate this exact process at that time as Bob Damone plans to be at the booth. BTW, this exhibition is in the public halls which do not require an admission fee. so if you are kind of local to San diego, take a drive down even if you are not coming for the whole show. And you can always decide to walk in to the conference at the last moment. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 So I assumed that what he meant was that a person such as myself could get a very rough sense of what an article was about using this method, but not much more. But Bob insisted that one could actually get extensive useful detailed practical information by doing this (if one knew basic chinese grammar, of course). I will hope to see what he means early next week when I get a demonstration. I take Bob very seriously on this matter. He is not one to overestimate the value of technology or minimize the need to deep study. Quite the contrary, actually.>>>>>It is only a question of a few short years before you will be able to do this easily and with more accuracy alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 > He said he could feed pages copied from Chinese medical texts into the scanner. Then he converts the scanned images to a text file in WORD. What software is used to convert it to a text file? Is it an optical character recognition (OCR) program? I have been using a digitizer pen to input characters into Wenlin. Sort of the same concept as Bob, but one by one. I’d love to accelerate the process. >Now I know full well that one would retain characters better if they are actually written and looked up the old fashioned way frequently. But if the bottom line on gaining access to chinese sources is to keep up on modern texts, recent journals and classical case literature (as opposed to reading complex treatises or classic texts), then this technology might be a great springboard towards this end I agree with you that a slower process may be a better learning tool, but the scanner method probably yields such quick results that it may encourage more people to stick with it. Attrition is a big problem in the Chinese language area. A lot of people are turned off because it is a lot of work. > According to Bob, wenlin has lots of medical terms already and it may be linked with a more extensive TCM database at some point in the future. Do you have any specific information on the addition of more TCM oriented terminology into Wenlin? I had considered using the dictionary editing tool to Wiseman-ise mine, but that seemed like too much work. If there is an update ahead I’d be curious to know how they are going to go about it. Terminology is a tricky thing in our field, as we’ve seen on the battlefields of this forum over the past years. At this point I think I’d even be happy if they translate Qi as energy (I can see Ken preemptively turning over in his grave now) – as long as they add TCM contexts to existing words. Tim Sharpe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 , " Tim Sharpe " < listserve@d...> wrote: > > > What software is used to convert it to a text file? Is it an optical > character recognition (OCR) program? I think so. I will check. > > > I agree with you that a slower process may be a better learning tool, but > the scanner method probably yields such quick results that it may encourage > more people to stick with it. good point > > Do you have any specific information on the addition of more TCM oriented > terminology into Wenlin? just something I couldn't confirm when I posted, so I left it vague for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Tim, > Terminology is a tricky thing in our field, as we've seen on the > battlefields of this forum over the past years. At this point I think I'd > even be happy if they translate Qi as energy (I can see Ken preemptively > turning over in his grave now) - as long as they add TCM contexts to > existing words. If it's all the same to you, I will wait a while before turning over in my grave. In fact, I hear people use energy to translate qi all the time, and it barely makes me quiver. It is probably a good idea, however, for everyone to turn over...or around...or in some direction or other and consider that while gushing with excitement over the potential for automating intelligence on this subject, we should consider the consequences of automating ignorance. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 , " dragon90405 " < yulong@m...> wrote: while gushing with excitement over > the potential for automating intelligence > on this subject, we should consider the > consequences of automating ignorance. > > Ken I am just not sure how that could happen using a program like wenlin. It doesn't do the work for you. It is interactive. You have to see the characters to get their definitions. You have to think about the choices given to see what makes sense and you can bring up the character and see the stroke order drawn before your eyes. So if the current state is one of ignorance, this must be a step up. And even if you feed a sheet into a computer and have it produce perfect wisemanese without ever even having to glance at the characters, the information access would still be a step up. this is only a slippery slope if anyone really believes learning chinese the old fashioned way could ever be part of the core TCM curriculum in america. I do not. And would such technology really be a problem anyway. Did you ever wonder why everybody speaks english on star trek? Actually they don't. Just as all advanced cultures in that mythos have warp drive, they all also have developed universal translators that allow them to communicate with other species without having to learn the language. Now of course that is science fiction, but it begs the question to me as to whether such technology really creates ignorance at all or rather that it opens the possibilities for communication and advances where none would have happened before. the world is a big place with lots to know. I can't see how this would do anything but help. And it is a fact of civilization that technology changes the terms of a debate. For example, technology will very soon end the debate over fossil fuels and the internal combustion engine (with the advent of the fuel cell, which is being spearheaded by mainstream general motors). Lets try not to discourage an endeavor that can serve the purpose to elevate us from our current status. I suppose all technology is fraught with pitfalls, but it is never inherently good or bad. Just a tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 This sounds like an interesting process. I agree that it could be very helpful to get people started. Looking up characters in a hardcopy dictionary is slow going at first. I support anything that gets people into reading the Chinese medical literature in Chinese. Bob , <@i...> wrote: > My colleague Bob Damone was very excited the other day to tell me about > his new translation discovery. Bob is an herbalist who has been studying > chinese for about 15 years. He is currently translating Jiao Shu de's > volume on formulas for paradigm. He is not well known, but he is well > respected by the publishing houses specializing in translation and many of > the top schools. > > Anyway Bob was excited about his new sheet fed scanner. He said he could > feed pages copied from chinese medical texts into the scanner. Then he > converts the scanned images to a text file in WORD. Then he opens the > file in wenlin (a chinese character software). When he places the cursor > over the characters in wenlin, the program gives the definitions of the > terms. According to Bob, wenlin has lots of medical terms already and it > may be linked with a more extensive TCM database at some point in the > future. > > So I assumed that what he meant was that a person such as myself could get > a very rough sense of what an article was about using this method, but not > much more. But Bob insisted that one could actually get extensive useful > detailed practical information by doing this (if one knew basic chinese > grammar, of course). I will hope to see what he means early next week > when I get a demonstration. I take Bob very seriously on this matter. He > is not one to overestimate the value of technology or minimize the need to > deep study. Quite the contrary, actually. > > Perhaps I am just reporting something already well known to many of you, > but I had not heard this before. It does strike me that using this > methodology to access chinese language material is akin to the method Bob > Flaws describes in his book on the subject. In that book, Bob suggests a > method that centers around learning by doing. Basically sitting there > with a dictionary and translating the characters one by one. Beginning > with a basic grammar and a handful of characters one adds to vocabulary > with each successive translation. This is an effective method for some > people (but not for all). I believe this method of using wenlin > essentially substitutes for the process of identifying the characters in a > stroke order dictionary. It may thus not convey the essence of chinese > medicine that some say is contained in the actual characters, but it may > on the other hand provide access to considerable data not currently > available to those who do not read chinese. Plus the act of using wenlin > in this way will serve to educate the user in chinese each time he scans a > page. > > Now I know full well that one would retain characters better if they are > actually written and looked up the old fashioned way frequently. But if > the bottom line on gaining access to chinese sources is to keep up on > modern texts, recent journals and classical case literature (as opposed to > reading complex treatises or classic texts), then this technology might be > a great springboard towards this end. There will be a language learning > exhibition at the redwing booth at the CHA conference in June. I believe > we may have an opportunity to demonstrate this exact process at that time > as Bob Damone plans to be at the booth. > > BTW, this exhibition is in the public halls which do not require an > admission fee. so if you are kind of local to San diego, take a drive > down even if you are not coming for the whole show. And you can always > decide to walk in to the conference at the last moment. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 I agree with you on this one. From what you describe, the user is still going to have to decide which of the various meanings listed is the correct one. Then, when all the meanings in a line are understood, the user will still have to rearrange the words and add English grammar to make the line intelligible. In other words, even once you know what all the characters in a line mean, you still have to interpret them in context. Some people are good at this and some people aren't. While this is a skill that can be developed, it is my experience that some people are inately better at this than others. Like all other learning, it is easier to gain new knowledge in a field the more knowledge of that field you already have. So my experience is that learning to read medical Chinese does not progress gradually but by quantuum leaps. I believe another way of saying that is that progress tends to be exponetial rather than arithmetic. The more Chinese medicine you know, the easier it is to figure out a Chinese medical text. However, the more Chinese medicine you have read in Chinese, the more Chinese medicine you know. So the process is slow at the beginning but tends to gather speed and momentum as time goes by. It's a little like getting a heavy flywheel going. Once it gets going, it goes faster and faster with only a little more additional pressure. On top of that, the more languages you know, the more interested you are in languages and words, and the greater your innate curiousity and problem-solving abilities are, the easier it is to learn to translate this stuff. Having started from absolute ground zero with Chinese, I can sometimes now go days translating without having to look up anything other than authors' names. Several years ago, I had occasion to use a French language translator while working on one of Philippe Sionneau's books. That was an actual translation program, not just a dictionary. Perhaps these kinds of programs have made significant strides since then, but that particular program sucked even though it was top of the line at the time. I eventually turned the damned thing off as a time-wasting distraction. The only thing it was good for was providing some very humorous misreadings! Bob , " " <@i...> wrote: > , " dragon90405 " < > yulong@m...> wrote: > > while gushing with excitement over > > the potential for automating intelligence > > on this subject, we should consider the > > consequences of automating ignorance. > > > > Ken > > I am just not sure how that could happen using a program like wenlin. It > doesn't do the work for you. It is interactive. You have to see the characters to > get their definitions. You have to think about the choices given to see what > makes sense and you can bring up the character and see the stroke order > drawn before your eyes. So if the current state is one of ignorance, this must > be a step up. And even if you feed a sheet into a computer and have it > produce perfect wisemanese without ever even having to glance at the > characters, the information access would still be a step up. this is only a > slippery slope if anyone really believes learning chinese the old fashioned > way could ever be part of the core TCM curriculum in america. I do not. And > would such technology really be a problem anyway. > > Did you ever wonder why everybody speaks english on star trek? Actually > they don't. Just as all advanced cultures in that mythos have warp drive, they > all also have developed universal translators that allow them to communicate > with other species without having to learn the language. Now of course that is > science fiction, but it begs the question to me as to whether such technology > really creates ignorance at all or rather that it opens the possibilities for > communication and advances where none would have happened before. > > the world is a big place with lots to know. I can't see how this would do > anything but help. And it is a fact of civilization that technology changes the > terms of a debate. For example, technology will very soon end the debate > over fossil fuels and the internal combustion engine (with the advent of the > fuel cell, which is being spearheaded by mainstream general motors). Lets > try not to discourage an endeavor that can serve the purpose to elevate us > from our current status. I suppose all technology is fraught with pitfalls, but it > is never inherently good or bad. Just a tool. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 , " Bob Flaws " wrote: > I agree with you on this one [Todd}.>>> Bob Flaws, Bob Felt: Ditto. Perhaps COMP publishers would consider making electronic copies of their dictionaries and translations to sell? It would help facilitate learning Chinese, and make Chinese literature more accessible. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 , " James Ramholz " < jramholz> wrote: > Bob Flaws, Bob Felt: > > Ditto. > > Perhaps COMP publishers would consider making electronic copies of > their dictionaries and translations to sell? It would help > facilitate learning Chinese, and make Chinese literature more > accessible. Spurred on by Doug's technical problems I have been researching the matter and for some reason there is not much OCR software out there for macs yet. The solution is clearly to just get our hands on CD ROMs and/or electronic downloads of chinese medical literature in text format. In other words, skip the laborious scanning. For those of you now in Asia, is it yet common practice to put chinese medical texts on CD? If not, could this be easily done? I think the whole zhong yao da ci dian could be on one CD. Much of this material is list of symptoms and patterns set up in repetitive format. It would be fairly easy to access much of this data using a program like wenlin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 There is a CD-ROM set of all the classics, I've seen it at Miki's office and at Chip's, but it only runs on PC's for some reason. On Monday, May 12, 2003, at 09:37 AM, wrote: > , " James Ramholz " < > jramholz> wrote: > >> Bob Flaws, Bob Felt: >> >> Ditto. >> >> Perhaps COMP publishers would consider making electronic copies of >> their dictionaries and translations to sell? It would help >> facilitate learning Chinese, and make Chinese literature more >> accessible. > > Spurred on by Doug's technical problems I have been researching the > matter > and for some reason there is not much OCR software out there for macs > yet. > The solution is clearly to just get our hands on CD ROMs and/or > electronic > downloads of chinese medical literature in text format. In other > words, skip > the laborious scanning. For those of you now in Asia, is it yet common > practice to put chinese medical texts on CD? If not, could this be > easily done? > I think the whole zhong yao da ci dian could be on one CD. Much of > this > material is list of symptoms and patterns set up in repetitive format. > It would > be fairly easy to access much of this data using a program like wenlin. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > There is a CD-ROM set of all the classics, I've seen it at Miki's > office and at Chip's, but it only runs on PC's for some reason. > > This is true but it is unfortuently not in text format. IT cannot be copied into wenlin... But it is an incredible 16 cd resource. (I assume that is the one you are talking about) - But we can print it then scan it, then copy into wenlin. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 Where is this CD set available? Marnae --- < wrote: , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > There is a CD-ROM set of all the classics, I've seen it at Miki's > office and at Chip's, but it only runs on PC's for some reason. > > This is true but it is unfortuently not in text format. IT cannot be copied into wenlin... But it is an incredible 16 cd resource. (I assume that is the one you are talking about) - But we can print it then scan it, then copy into wenlin. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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