RE: FW: SARS: Summing-Up

[Guest guest]

 

II. At the early stages of

SARS, slight clearing , dispersing and dispelling

qing qing xuan

tou ÇåÝpÐû͸

therapeutic methods may be used. However , no

cold and cooling han liang º®›ö

(materia medica) must be

used. This will

prevent ¡®the closing of the door and allow the heteropathy to be

harbored

inside.¡¯yi fang guan men liu xie ÒÔ·ÀêPéTÁôа.

Prof. Deng Tie Tao from the

Guangzhou TCM

University thinks that although SARS patients have been

afflicted by ¡®Damp, Heat Toxic heteropathies¡¯ shi re du xie ñŸá¶¾Ð°,

however, internally their ZhengQi (medicatrix naturae) must be

vacuous zheng xu ÕýÌ“ i.e. in winter theymust

have been damaged by cold dong shang yu han ¶¬‚û춺®,

and thus inspring they will suffer from ¡®warm

febrile¡¯ disease chun bi bing wen ´º±Ø²¡

ϯ. Hence, at the initial stages of the disease, the treatment must be aimed

at ¡®ascending and dispersing ventilating and

dispersing¡¯ sheng

san xuan tou

ÉýÉ¢Ðû͸. Excessively cold materia medica must not be used. We must give the

¡®damp heteropathy¡¯ a way out.

 

 

Rey,

Thanks for the great effort to translate this information as well as including

some of the Chinese text. The passage

above regarding treatment protocols is interesting. All reports that I have heard indicate fever

as the initial symptom. The

contraindication of using cold and cooling medicinals

might be counter-intuitive to many. I am

wondering if this contraindication is based on bad experiences or based on the

observation that susceptibility appears related to previous cold injury during

the recent winter which depleted zheng qi. The article also suggests it is

related to the presence of ¡°damp heteropathy¡± (your terminology).

 

For clarification,

the term ¡°damp heteropathy¡±: Are you

inferring a damp condition triggered by acute exposure to a pathogen or just an

abnormal condition related to dampness, or¡­?

 

Thanks again,

Stephen

 

 

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[Guest guest]

May 13,2003

 

Dear Stephen,

 

Thanks for your feedback. 'Damp heteropathy' is my translation of the

Chinese term 'Shi Xie' (I borrowed the English word 'heteropathy'

from Chao Y'uan Ling's Phd Dissertation Medicine and Soceity in Late

Imperial China: A Study of Physicians in Suzhou, l995,University of

California).I translated 'shi' into dampness.The term 'dampness' as

used in the article that I translated does not refer to a 'condition'

but to what we refer to often in the West as 'pathogen' , or

'heteropathy' or in Chinese 'xie' which is the opposite number of

'zheng' which I translate as 'medicatrix naturae' or 'body immune

resistance. The use of cold or cooling materia media according to the

article translated is to prevent this 'xie' or heteropahty or

pathogen to be'trapped' or 'harbored' inside. But the main

'heteropathy' in terms of SARS is the 'Warm Pestilential Qi' which is

a 'hot' pathogen or heteropathy. And to dispel it the use of cooling

materia medica is also necessary. Hence , the way I see it, the use

of cooling or cold materia medica in relation of a real SARS patient

will depend upon the clinical pattern this specific contingent

patient.

 

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

 

 

 

, " Stephen Morrissey " <

stephen@b...> wrote:

>

>

> II. At the early stages of SARS, slight clearing , dispersing and

> dispelling

> qing qing xuan tou although SARS patients have been

> afflicted by ¡®Damp, Heat Toxic heteropathies¡¯ shi re du

xie

???3â?„4?,

> however, internally their ZhengQi (medicatrix naturae) must be

vacuous

> zheng xu ?? i.e. in winter theymust have been damaged by cold dong

> shang yu han ¶¬??, and thus inspring they will suffer from

¡®warm

> febrile¡¯ disease chun bi bing wen ´º±?¡

> ?? Hence, at the initial stages of the disease, the treatment must

be

> aimed

> at ¡®ascending and dispersing ventilating and

dispersing¡¯ sheng

san

> xuan tou

> ???cation is based on bad experiences or based

> on the observation that susceptibility appears related to previous

cold

> injury during the recent winter which depleted zheng qi. The

article

> also suggests it is related to the presence of ¡°damp

heteropathy¡±

> (your terminology).

>

> For clarification, the term ¡°damp heteropathy¡±: Are

you

inferring a

> damp condition triggered by acute exposure to a pathogen or just an

> abnormal condition related to dampness, or¡-?

>

> Thanks again,

> Stephen

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

variety of

> professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Stephen and Rey

Just noticing your discussion of TCM and SARS. It does seem counter-intuitive at first that they don't recommend using cold toxic-clearing herbs in treatment at the earliest stages. My understanding of their approach is as follows:

Wen Bing theory describes similar conditions to SARS. SARS is considered a wind-heat-evil (feng-re xie- heteropathy seems way too cumbersome an English term for me). It is initially in the Wei (most external) level and treatment at that point focuses on having the patient sweat so as to drive the evil up and outwards before it enters the Qi level (I know that some of the symptoms are already Qi level symptoms). This seems to be the consensus classical outlook on SARS in early stages.

Actual clinical experience here in China has shown that many patients who are given high levels of steroids in order to lower fever and reduce inflammation actually end up getting worse. Classical CM looks at this as driving the disease deeper into the body. More recently, steroids have been used in much lower dosages in combination with spicy warm herbs to open the exterior/ cause sweating/ clear damp-evils. This is in the early stages only.

So the use of cold, toxin clearing herbs may be looked at as similar to the steroid approach. It's not that they are necessarily afraid that the disease will be "trapped" in the interior but that it will be driven inwards- semantics as usual.

Of course, I haven't actually seen any SARS patients in the clinic where I'm working but try to keep up on the news whenever possible.

go slow,

Jason Jason Robertson, L.Ac. Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

home-86-010-8405-0531cell- 86-010-13520155800

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason and James,

I'm in a discussion group with MD friends who speculate that some of the acute care treatments may include some kind of interferon and ribavirin. I'm not seeing acute care treatment reports, at least in English, regarding SARS treatment in Asia or in Toronto. I'm only seeing epidemiological reports. Where are you reading about the steroids and antibiotics?

It's the opinion of my friends who are infectious disease specialists that such treatments would do more harm than good. Ribavirin among other drugs has been getting mostly bad reviews. It's a pretty rugged pharmaceutical that inhibits DNA/RNA synthesis and disrupts RNA polymerase and polypeptide synthesis. Too bad WM hasn't figured out how to stimulate T-cytotoxic cells. Dr. David Ho suggests using his HIV drugs. Have you heard what specifically has been tried? I haven't seen specifics. Thanks for any info.

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Jason Robertson wrote:

Actual clinical experience here in China has shown that many patients who are given high levels of steroids in order to lower fever and reduce inflammation actually end up getting worse. Classical CM looks at this as driving the disease deeper into the body. More recently, steroids have been used in much lower dosages in combination with spicy warm herbs to open the exterior/ cause sweating/ clear damp-evils. This is in the early stages only.

James Ramholz wrote:There has been speculation in a number of news sources that the combination of steroids and antivirus medicines is what is killing many of the SARS patients.

[Guest guest]

, " Emmanuel Segmen " wrote:

Where are you reading about the steroids and antibiotics?>>>

 

http://www.redflagsweekly.com/crowe/2003_may10.html

 

David Crowe wrote a piece for Red Flag Daily about how often the

coronavirus is actually associated with SARS cases. It mentions that

steriods, antibiotics, and Ribavirin have been used in the

treatments of SARS patients. Antibiotics are often prescribed in

viral pneumonia cases for opportunistic infections. And, besides,

what else have they got? Crowe provides a bibliography at the end of

the article for his sources.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Recently I have been seeing a disturbing trend among some patients

with common respiratory complaints such as influenza and bronchitis who

have been given antibiotics and steroids together.

 

 

On Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 12:46 AM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

>    I'm in a discussion group with MD friends who speculate that some

> of the acute care treatments may include some kind of interferon and

> ribavirin.  I'm not seeing acute care treatment reports, at least in

> English, regarding SARS treatment in Asia or in Toronto.  I'm only

> seeing epidemiological reports.   Where are you reading about the

> steroids and antibiotics? 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev

 

Not only respiratory, but it seems to be the panacea for almost

everything.. A relative went in for chest pain (Stress related, ekg

fine etc...) and what did they get? --> antibiotics and steroids....

just amazing to me...

 

-Jason

 

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Recently I have been seeing a disturbing trend among some

patients

> with common respiratory complaints such as influenza and bronchitis

who

> have been given antibiotics and steroids together.

>

>

> On Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 12:46 AM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

>

> >    I'm in a discussion group with MD friends who speculate that

some

> > of the acute care treatments may include some kind of interferon

and

> > ribavirin.  I'm not seeing acute care treatment reports, at least

in

> > English, regarding SARS treatment in Asia or in Toronto.  I'm

only

> > seeing epidemiological reports.   Where are you reading about the

> > steroids and antibiotics? 

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Not only respiratory, but it seems to be the panacea for almost

> everything.. A relative went in for chest pain (Stress related,

ekg fine etc...) and what did they get? --> antibiotics and

steroids.... just amazing to me... >>>

 

 

Jason:

 

What else do they got for those kinds of problems? And, you have to

keep in mind that they see a patient only for an average of 6

minutes (old statistic). It's all the more amazing since antibiotic-

resistant bacteria are on the uprise and the alarm is even being

raised in WM quarters. But it's these sort of pressures that have

helped make CM more mainstream.

 

If it can be verified that TCM has successfully treated SARS

patients, just imagine the effect if it were broadcast by the media.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the URL. Very helpful to see David Crowe's nicely collated review of the popular and scientific literature. It confirms the suspicions of the on-line discussions I've been having with MD friends around the country.

If you read the scientific literature through the 1990s, you'll see a trend where ribavirin and various varieties of interferon were used mainly for infant and pediatric acute care treatment of RSV - respiratory syncytial virus. It's also used with the RNA polymerase inhibitor VX-497 since year 2000 and with interferon especially when treating hepatitis C.

The epidemiological reviews of this type of treatment have been pretty horrendous with the exception of one study that showed positive results with oral administration for use against hepatitis C. When treating RSV, ribavirin is administered as a kind of spray inhalant whose administration must be concluded within 7 days. It apparently reaches it's lethal capacity in the lungs by that point.

The bizarre nature of this science begins to hit you when you consider the mechanisms of viral infections. The virus inserts a short stretch of DNA into the cell's genome and uses the cell's DNA and RNA polymerases along with the cell's ribosomes and amino acid pools to manufacture its progeny. The immune system has a few lines of immune cells (T-cytotoxic, NK cells, dendritic macrophages) that specifically go after virally infected cells and cancerous cells.

Allopathy chooses to attempt viral antibiotics to basically destroy the capacities of our own cells that may or most may not contain viral DNA in their genome. So ribavirin and VX-497 interfere with DNA polymerases that replicate the viral DNA and with RNA polymerases that make the mRNA for the viral protein coat synthesis. This makes for an insidiously deadly drug for both virally infected cells as well as healthy cells.

The mostly unattempted but creative alternative would be to stimulate the immune cells of interest. Vaccines are the WM effort in this direction. I've seen sufficient indirect evidence that CM's tonic herbs and formulas function in this latter mode of immune stimulation.

Your point about increased antibiotic resistance in your response to Jason is much to the point as well. I go to med-surg wards regularly to pick up my wife from work and visit with MD friends. These days there's never a floor without at least one multiple-resistance infected patient where everyone takes special precautions upon entering and leaving the room. Big Pharm and HMOs, like corporate Agribusiness, are looking for profits out ahead of any creative approach to doing the science. In their defense, Big Pharm is stuck with a system of spending half a billion dollars to bring a single drug product to market. They created the system through political influence, and now they have to live with it.

 

Thanks again for your attunement and helpful URL,

In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen

 

, "Emmanuel Segmen" wrote:Where are you reading about the steroids and antibiotics?>>>http://www.redflagsweekly.com/crowe/2003_may10.htmlDavid Crowe wrote a piece for Red Flag Daily about how often the coronavirus is actually associated with SARS cases. It mentions that steriods, antibiotics, and Ribavirin have been used in the treatments of SARS patients. Antibiotics are often prescribed in viral pneumonia cases for opportunistic infections. And, besides, what else have they got? Crowe provides a bibliography at the end of the article for his sources. Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " Emmanuel Segmen " wrote:

They created the system through political influence, and now they

have to live with it. >>>

 

 

Emmanuel:

 

It's scarey that we have to " live with it, " too, unless we get

involved and change it. I suspect it will change the more CM becomes

integrated with WM. Unfortunately, only the Medical acupuncturists

seem to be involved in that itegration---especially in hospitals and

ERs---since that political and economic structure keeps most of us

real acupuncturists out.

 

More specifically, I'm wondering what the situation for us will be

like in the years to come if the general talk of national health

care gets closer to being an actual possibility.

 

 

Jim Ramholz