veterinary TCM

[Guest guest]

, " " <

@e...> wrote:

 

> We have a long way to go to bring herbal medicine into mainstream

> vet med! This is because there is pitifully little real science (if that

> is defined as published clinical trials or controlled trials) to support

> the clinical use of herbal medicine in animals listed in the search

> profile above.

 

and yet there are those who would seek fame and fortune touting their skills at

veterinary herbalism. I can be no more more blunt than to say that I believe

much of what I have read about the TCM treatment of animals is just clinically

misguided. I believe my animals's health have been damaged by

unnecessary or poorly timed supplementation by well intentioned but

misguided " TCM " veterinarians. No consideration has been given to the

differences between treating human omnivores, obligate carnivores (most

pets) and obligate herbivores with multiple stomachs (most farm animals).

And I do not merely speak from a modernist persepctive. Premodern texts

such as forgotten traditions documented by unschuld make important

distinctions between animals and humans.

 

According to xu da chun, animals have turbid blood. Their diseases tend to

be of excess. their lives are short. But they don't really live long enough to

" wear out " , per se. why would an animal develop severe vacuities from

taxation in 10 or 15 years. You think it would take more time. especially

since

well fed animals are so robust. In fact, it is interesting that many short

lived

animals do NOT exhibit significant decline in DHEA over their lifespans,

another sign that vacuity may not be as prominent as one may think. If the

answer is that they have a built in lifespan, then what good is intervention at

all. I am not suggesting that an animal can live for 70 years, but rather we

must consider the wisdom of excessive supplementing therapies in a short-

lived creature such as a cat that subsists on intensely supplementing foods

such as fatty meats, organs, marrow and bones. It seems a lot more likely to

me that they can be come overloaded with excess. And according to yan de

xin, the main cause of vacuity is actually stagnation. This makes even more

sense in obligate carnivores.

 

Kidney failure is the main cause of death in cats. Chinese research has

pinpointed da huang (rhubarb/rx et rz. rhei) as a key herb in the treatment of

renal crises. I find cats tolerate this herb quite well and it is a viable

therapy in

cases where supplementing therapy have just led to continual decline. Da

huang has also been indicated for type 2 diabetes, as well, another disease

that affects aging felines, a disease that begins with excess (which is why

kanpo physicians may use formulas such as fang feng tong sheng tang for

excess type DM).

 

In most of the cats I have consulted on, purging and moving blood have been

far more successful kidney supplementation. My own 13 y.o. cat, who has a

terminal neurological condition, went through a period of extreme decline last

fall while undergoing supplementation therapy. He eventually could not walk

at all, was ice cold and immobile all the time, did not eat, drank profusely.

His

bowels had also ceased to move. I brought him to a " straight " vet and treated

him for severe constipation (something I had insisted was a major problem to

every TCM vet I ever saw, all of whom did no tests and just dismissed me).

After the enemas and manual extraction, his energy and appetite returned

instantly. By keep his bowels regular with fiber and laxatives, he has

improved dramatically and even is beginning to walk a little again. I would

thus urge all TCM vets to carefully consider yan de xin on blood stasis and

aging as a key to the treatment of animals as well.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " --

Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

This is because there is pitifully little real science (if that

is defined as published clinical trials or controlled trials) to

support the clinical use of herbal medicine in animals listed in

the search profile above. >>>

 

:

 

There is literature for herbal formulas for all types of animals

that I've come across in the original Chinese. Isn't there any

translated (not an area I keep up with)?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

IHi All,

 

Ihor Basko of the PVA-L wrote:

wrote (re Veterinary TCM):

> And yet there are those who would seek fame and fortune touting

> their skills at veterinary herbalism. I can be no more more blunt

> than to say that I believe much of what I have read about the TCM

> treatment of animals is just clinically misguided.

>

 

Hi members and Todd

 

Perhaps what Todd said is correct. Much of our vet training IS

extrapolation from human to animal, including the herbal medicines

we use. For that reason, each animal must be seen as an

individual and not en masse. Homeopathy addresses this issue,

as well as TCM. Most vets I know try to consider the differences of

humans vs carnivores, etc.

 

Excess is the disease of our times. Excess calories, chemicals,

people, noise, and stress. Most diets if not all made commercially

would qualify as " Excess " diets, and the resultant effects on the

organ systems will over time create " deficiencies " . The treatments

such start with re-evaluating the diet, and tonifying deficiencies. I

would disagree with Todd . These diets DO " wear out " the liver,

gallbladder, KIs, and pancreas over time, just like humans who over

indudge themselves with inappropriate food ....first suffer from

diseases of " excess " which later become deficiencies over time.

Blood stasis as you mentioned could be a condition in older cats,

but not necessarily in all cats. Blood moving herbs definetly help

cats with cardiac problems and some KI problems depending upon

the etiology.....there are many reasons and pathologies to

consider.

 

After doing many necropsies (autopsies) on animals, most vets

would agree that certain organs do wear out do to " excess "

conditions.

 

Now the question: Are vets trained properly in the use of herbs?

Probably not, just doing one course or getting taught by one group

of teachers may not be enough to teach all the " finer " distinctions

that must be considered to become a great herbalist. It 's a path

that never ends, and that continually needs renewal and teachers

that can explain the same concepts differently from the average.

Time, observation, and experience is important also. Too many

vets are not familiar with the crude or raw forms of the herbs, have

no ideas where and how these plants grow and are only familiar

with a powder, pill, or extract of the plant. Much like cooking, you

can have a great assortment of ingredients, but if you do not know

how to blend them properly, your guests may experience

indigestion or worse. Not much is taught on how to mix herbs, and

which herbs should not be mixed or used concomittantly.

 

Our Western minded training keeps many vets stuck in prescribing

herbs as substitutes for drugs....as much as we think we are over

this, and thinking with an " Asian mind " about how herbs work....we

fall short. So, yes there will be some gaps in how well we are

prepared to use herbs. But I DO NOT think in most cases, the use

of herbs or supplements will be deterimental compared to the

wrong use of a drug or chemical substance.

 

In research studies that I have read certain supplements Do

improve KI function, such as Coenzyme Q10, taurine, zizyphus, vit

E, and quercitin....in research animals, mice, rats, rabbits, cats,

and dogs.

 

With geriatric patients the diagnosis and plan of action is critical,

and maybe chosing the wrong formula because of a faulty TCM

understanding may precipitate death....quicker. But in my

experience if this is so, most likely that animal was beyond a cure

and too far gone any way.

 

Yes, KI problems maybe the main cause of death in older cats.

But my last older cat was 24 yrs old when her KIs failed. No

herbs, just a good diet kept her going that long, Death at 12 -15

years of age IS related to a chronic EXCESS of dry food, and

commercial chemicals in these foods IMO. Possibly over-

vaccinationing animals may precipitate degenerative processes in

animals.

 

Most vets are NOT using herbs to become famous or rich. They

are just trying to provide the best care they can possbily give their

patients and their owners. I think that many vets need to study

and learn more about the indications and contraindications of

supplementation as well as knowing more about biochemical

nutrition. Then there is common sense, like giving an enema if

needed and not waiting for an herb to work.

 

If you had some bad experiences with TCM vets, maybe you

could enlighten them on where they went wrong, but I believe in

their hearts they did what they thought was best....on their level of

understanding, education and experience.

 

My approach with KI failure cats is to change their diets to raw

foods, use cordyceps, reishi, and royal jelly for long term,

intermittenly with Liu Wei Di Huang, and acupuncture.

 

I am sorry about the loss of your cat. The hardest part of having

animals is watching them decline and die. Ihor Basko, DVM

 

Best regards,

 

 

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