Guest guest Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Ta Ya, Emmanuel, > Most of the grants were given to > Chinese medicine practitioners who had training from China and they had > their PhD training in biological science at USA. Thus, I believe that > there is a need to have a group of Chinese medicine practitioners who will > take research design courses and able to write the grants. If the designs don't get piloted in the research literature, if the readers of research literature do not see cogent critiques of poor TCM research, and if the authors of the grant application cannot be found on medline, then the grant comittees will not take the risk of approving grants that are " risky " in terms of their own career. There are very few CM people with " legit " Ph.Ds. Without an academic doctorate the odds of being publish in medline- indexed peer journals falls off percipitously. So, it is a real uphill climb for CM grant applications. I think design courses, not to mention courses that teach people who to read and critque trial designs, would be a wonderful benefit to the field. But, at the risk of crossing into politics, I think the current administration is even more unlikely to fund research into CM, and that we would be better off laying the ground work for more fertile political tims with education and publication. > And even then, it's going to be about applying the > fundamental structure and tests of Western science to some " standardized " > CM therapy. There will be no pulses or tongue examination to see > outcomes. There will be no CM diagnosis to see where the patients start > nor where they finish. It will in most cases be an exercise in Western > science looking at itself and its own boundaries. I agree, although I believe Richard Hammerschlag has managed some grants for outcomes research. I think where there is a cost-benefit assessment implicit in outcomes trials, they could be very effective supports for our political aims. That said, what about the basic science of, for example, needling? The research community wants needle-controlled trials before they give much ground on acupuncture efficacy. Yet, what you see developing in terms of placebo needles and various sham acupuncture approaches so entirely discounts the complexity of needling stimulae that it seems more likely to prove that acupuncture is a placebo than anything else. While I know everyone is more interested in herbs, acupuncture is still a powerful " foot in the door " and demonstrating needle effects with work like what Manaka and Itaya did with blood flow seems fairly amenable to western methodologies and could have the benefit of demonstrating that there is more to needling than can be dismissed. I'll be on the road a while so I may miss this discussion but I would like to applaud you both for your posts and express my hope that this sort of real- world thinking will get some consideration by educators. Bob bob Paradigm Publications www.paradigm-pubs.com 44 Linden Street Robert L. Felt Brookline MA 02445 617-738-4664 --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Hello all, Shortly after graduating from Emperor's I had the opportunity to go to the NIH to be a research associate with a UCLA MD who had received a grant to study the effects of acupuncture on emesis. I was going to receive a miserable salary, even with my masters. The catch for me was that I was only allowed to do acupuncture on animals, not humans. Only MD's are allowed to needle humans. Acupuncture on animals is way outside my scope of practice so I decided to not take the position. Perhaps research design needs to include an MD to perform the acupuncture! Colleen Ta Ya, Emmanuel, > Most of the grants were given to > Chinese medicine practitioners who had training from China and they had > their PhD training in biological science at USA. Thus, I believe that > there is a need to have a group of Chinese medicine practitioners who will > take research design courses and able to write the grants. If the designs don't get piloted in the research literature, if the readers of research literature do not see cogent critiques of poor TCM research, and if the authors of the grant application cannot be found on medline, then the grant comittees will not take the risk of approving grants that are " risky " in terms of their own career. There are very few CM people with " legit " Ph.Ds. Without an academic doctorate the odds of being publish in medline- indexed peer journals falls off percipitously. So, it is a real uphill climb for CM grant applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Hi! I knew that principle investigator (PI) need to be MD or PhD. I wrote the application for grants before, and I had to ask someone to be PI. Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc Johns Hopkins Community Physician >>> colleen 05/30/03 04:21PM >>> Hello all, Shortly after graduating from Emperor's I had the opportunity to go to the NIH to be a research associate with a UCLA MD who had received a grant to study the effects of acupuncture on emesis. I was going to receive a miserable salary, even with my masters. The catch for me was that I was only allowed to do acupuncture on animals, not humans. Only MD's are allowed to needle humans. Acupuncture on animals is way outside my scope of practice so I decided to not take the position. Perhaps research design needs to include an MD to perform the acupuncture! Colleen Ta Ya, Emmanuel, > Most of the grants were given to > Chinese medicine practitioners who had training from China and they had > their PhD training in biological science at USA. Thus, I believe that > there is a need to have a group of Chinese medicine practitioners who will > take research design courses and able to write the grants. If the designs don't get piloted in the research literature, if the readers of research literature do not see cogent critiques of poor TCM research, and if the authors of the grant application cannot be found on medline, then the grant comittees will not take the risk of approving grants that are " risky " in terms of their own career. There are very few CM people with " legit " Ph.Ds. Without an academic doctorate the odds of being publish in medline- indexed peer journals falls off percipitously. So, it is a real uphill climb for CM grant applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Hi Colleen, Yes, I believe you spared yourself some serious frustration, abuse and heartache. The MD is the technologist of choice for carrying out "procedures" to "assay" techniques for "treating conditions for benefit". If any of you on list do not have a working as well as a "credentialled" knowledge of the phrases in quotation marks, it would be best not to apply for public research dollars from NSF, NIH or Defense Dept. grants. There are smaller granting institutions such as Osher Institute in San Francisco for complimentary alt. med. Nevertheless, the people who review such grants expect you to carry out research in the paradigm of Western science or WM. With regard to CM as a dove in a "gilded cage," I would say this. The horses of WM would test the dove of CM to see if the dove could meet the specifications of the horses. When the dove flies at 30 MPH to the destination point well ahead of the fastest horse, the horses will look for evidence of dove's galloping legs. Seeing no evidence of the dove's galloping legs, the horses of WM will determine that the dove of CM did not actually arrive at the goal. After all there was no evidence even though the patient got well faster than the horses could have done it. In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen Merritt College, Asia Natural Hello all,Shortly after graduating from Emperor's I had the opportunity to go tothe NIH to be a research associate with a UCLA MD who had received agrant to study the effects of acupuncture on emesis. I was going toreceive a miserable salary, even with my masters. The catch for me wasthat I was only allowed to do acupuncture on animals, not humans. OnlyMD's are allowed to needle humans. Acupuncture on animals is way outsidemy scope of practice so I decided to not take the position.Perhaps research design needs to include an MD to perform theacupuncture!Colleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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