Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 On 6/1/03 3:36 AM, " " wrote: > In the Pulse of Oriental Medicine, Brian Carter writes (in a question and > answer format): > > Question: A friend recommended something... There is a tiny pill that she > said folks can take two days before any surgery. It helps prevent blood > clots and potential strokes that may result from the surgery. I believe > the name is Yunan Bai Yawl (there are variations thereof. You buy a little > $2 bottle of the powder (which is used on cuts, external problems) and the > little red pill is in the bottle. I think I may have butchered the > phonetic spelling. She says her acupuncturist/ doctor > swears it would do away with 60% of complications from surgery. > > [ANSWER]: WHOA! If I had your phone number I'd call you right now (note: I > did get an email to this woman in time). This makes me very nervous. Why? > Because Yunnan Baiyao is an herbal formula that stops bleeding. That means > it is a coagulant. The herbs in Yunnan Baiyao do slightly move blood > (similar to a 'blood-thinning' action) according to Jake Fratkin's > " Chinese Herbal Patent Formulas. " But the main indication is bleeding, and > overall it stops bleeding. It actually would make you more likely to have > clots and a stroke than to prevent it. In all my training, I have never > heard any Traditional (TCM) doctor recommend this formula > pre surgery. It is my understanding that there are various mechanisms related to pathological bleeding: Qi deficiency, Blood Heat and Blood stasis. Herbs in our pharmacopia can stop bleeding in various ways according to the specific reason for bleeding. San Qi, in particular stops bleeding BY moving the blood. This concept is very important because, especially for me in the gynecology world, there is often heavy bleeding with blood stasis as one of, or the only cause. Herbs are not EITHER hemostatic OR blood moving. In the western mind set, we either thin the blood or help it coagulate but in our world we have much deeper insight and abilities. I have seen patients who have taken Yu Nan Bai Yao pre-surgery and post, surprise their doctors at the recovery time and lack of pathological bleeding during surgery. This patent moves the blood in order to stop bleeding. Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 > > It is my understanding that there are various mechanisms related to > pathological bleeding: Qi deficiency, Blood Heat and Blood stasis. Herbs in > our pharmacopia can stop bleeding in various ways according to the specific > reason for bleeding. San Qi, in particular stops bleeding BY moving the > blood. This concept is very important because, especially for me in the > gynecology world, there is often heavy bleeding with blood stasis as one of, > or the only cause. Herbs are not EITHER hemostatic OR blood moving. In > the western mind set, we either thin the blood or help it coagulate but in > our world we have much deeper insight and abilities. I have seen patients > who have taken Yu Nan Bai Yao pre-surgery and post, surprise their doctors > at the recovery time and lack of pathological bleeding during surgery. This > patent moves the blood in order to stop bleeding. > > Sharon I agree, I have read (maybe from Mclean's patent book but can't remember0, that it is often recommended that one take YNBY 2 hours pre-surgery, and then after.. So Brian's information is not definite... Where did he get his info? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Thank you Sharon and Jason, for spelling out the possible blood patterns, and pointing out, again, that it is the pattern diagnosis that determines the use of Chinese medicinals, not necessarily allopathic concerns. However, without knowing the ingredients of the red pill that is sold with yunnan baiyao, how can we know how to use it with confidence? I've had excellent results with post-mouth surgery recovery using the yunnan baiyao powder. On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 07:35 AM, wrote: > I agree, I have read (maybe from Mclean's patent book but can't > remember0, that it is often recommended that one take YNBY 2 hours > pre-surgery, and then after.. So Brian's information is not > definite... Where did he get his info? > > -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Thank you Sharon and Jason, for spelling out the possible blood patterns, and pointing out, again, that it is the pattern diagnosis that determines the use of Chinese medicinals, not necessarily allopathic concerns. However, without knowing the ingredients of the red pill that is sold with yunnan baiyao, how can we know how to use it with confidence?>>>>Also what these have to do with risks or benefit of taking it before surgery? does surgery cause strokes from blood heat? qi def? alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 , " " <@h...> wrote: > > > I agree, I have read (maybe from Mclean's patent book but can't > remember0, that it is often recommended that one take YNBY 2 hours > pre-surgery, and then after.. So Brian's information is not > definite... Where did he get his info? > > -Jason I'd like to pin down some sources for all sides of this debate. Anyone have the Mcclean book? Because he is a reputable source and a big fan of YPY if recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Hi Todd and list, This is my first posting to this list. I have enjoyed reading the archives tremendously and have learnt much from the wide and varied experiences of the members of this list. I hope to be able to return this openness and generosity in any way I can. For now, I have Maclean’s “Chinese Herbal Patent Medicines” book at hand so I will quote the relevant section from it for you......... Under “Indications” section.... “* Pre-surgical preparation to reduce keloid scarring and improve postoperative recovery” In relation to the “secret” of the ingredients of this product, their is no joy to be found in this text either. Under the composition section it says “Panax Notoginseng (tian qi, tian qi ginseng), other ingredients secret”. Other information contained in this book that may be of interest: TCM actions : Invigorate blood and stop bleeding. Biomedical actions : hemostatic, invigorates local circulation and eliminates stagnant blood, analgesic. Indications : Important first aid remedy for bleeding regardless of etiology. Admin : he recommends taking this product with water for bleeding, but with a little alcohol (eg. vodka, sherry) for blood stagnation. Best wishes to all!! Steve Slater “On 2/6/03 4:06 AM, " " < wrote: , " " <@h...> wrote: > > > I agree, I have read (maybe from Mclean's patent book but can't > remember0, that it is often recommended that one take YNBY 2 hours > pre-surgery, and then after.. So Brian's information is not > definite... Where did he get his info? > > -Jason I'd like to pin down some sources for all sides of this debate. Anyone have the Mcclean book? Because he is a reputable source and a big fan of YPY if recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 re: "tiny pill" ... M.Naeser,Ph.D. writes..."...there is also one small red pill (about the size of a single peppercorn). This red pill is called Bao Xian Zi, which is translated as 'insurance pill for a seriousor emergency case' This pill is only used to treat a patient with severe bleeding or injury who is about to go into shock, as a "First Aid" medicine, otherwise do not use the pill. This medicine will help to prevent the patient from going into shock. The contents of the Bao Xian Zi are different from the Yun Nan Bai Yao. The Bao Xian Zi has ingredients to stop pain and open Orifices to help prevent shock. It will not stop the bleeding." ~ from "Outline Guide to Chinese Herbal Patent Medicines in Pill Form" pg 244Yosef Pollack Licensed Acupuncturist (773) 472-2600 office (773) 907-8810 home (773) 490-7259 cell ----Original Message Follows---- sharon weizenbaum Re: San Qi and bleeding Sun, 01 Jun 2003 07:57:19 -0400 On 6/1/03 3:36 AM, wrote: > In the Pulse of Oriental Medicine, Brian Carter writes (in a question and > answer format): > > Question: A friend recommended something... There is a tiny pill that she > said folks can take two days before any surgery. It helps prevent blood > clots and potential strokes that may result from the surgery. I believe > the name is Yunan Bai Yawl (there are variations thereof. You buy a little > $2 bottle of the powder (which is used on cuts, external problems) and the > little red pill is in the bottle. I think I may have butchered the > phonetic spelling. She says her acupuncturist/ doctor > swears it would do away with 60% of complications from surgery. > > [ANSWER]: WHOA! If I had your phone number I'd call you right now (note: I > did get an email to this woman in time). This makes me very nervous. Why? > Because Yunnan Baiyao is an herbal formula that stops bleeding. That means > it is a coagulant. The herbs in Yunnan Baiyao do slightly move blood > (similar to a 'blood-thinning' action) according to Jake Fratkin's > "Chinese Herbal Patent Formulas." But the main indication is bleeding, and > overall it stops bleeding. It actually would make you more likely to have > clots and a stroke than to prevent it. In all my training, I have never > heard any Traditional (TCM) doctor recommend this formula > pre surgery. It is my understanding that there are various mechanisms related to pathological bleeding: Qi deficiency, Blood Heat and Blood stasis. Herbs in our pharmacopia can stop bleeding in various ways according to the specific reason for bleeding. San Qi, in particular stops bleeding BY moving the blood. This concept is very important because, especially for me in the gynecology world, there is often heavy bleeding with blood stasis as one of, or the only cause. Herbs are not EITHER hemostatic OR blood moving. In the western mind set, we either thin the blood or help it coagulate but in our world we have much deeper insight and abilities. I have seen patients who have taken Yu Nan Bai Yao pre-surgery and post, surprise their doctors at the recovery time and lack of pathological bleeding during surgery. This patent moves the blood in order to stop bleeding. Sharon Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 , Steve Slater wrote: > For now, I have Maclean¹s ³Chinese Herbal Patent Medicines² book at hand so I will quote the relevant section from it for you......... > > Under ³Indications² section.... > > ³* Pre-surgical preparation to reduce keloid scarring and improve > postoperative recovery² >>>> Doesn't this bring up an ethical question about whether we *should* prescribe something that a doctor will not be aware of, and which may have an influence, on the surgical procedure he does--- especially when we have no direct communication with him? Practically speaking, it happens all the time and in a small percent of cases has created adverse consequences. In recent years, I've told my patients to stop taking herbs and supplements about a week before a procedure so that everything that happens during it will be a consequence of the doctor's understanding and control. It seems only fair that they see the results of their work and deal with any complications unencumbered. > In relation to the ³secret² of the ingredients of this product, their is no joy to be found in this text either. Under the composition section it says ³Panax Notoginseng (tian qi, tian qi ginseng), other ingredients secret². >>> Yunan Bai Yao boxes now list their ingredients as San qi 1.6g San yu Cao 0.68g Shan yao 0.52g Chuan shan yao 0.40g Lao guan cao 0.288g Gao liang jiang 0.24g Bai niu dan 0.20g And only 10 calories. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Yunan Bai Yao boxes now list their ingredients asSan qi 1.6gSan yu Cao 0.68gShan yao 0.52g Chuan shan yao 0.40g Lao guan cao 0.288g Gao liang jiang 0.24g Bai niu dan 0.20g>>>>>I wander if these are true as it is still a guarded patent Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Those are the (probable) ingredients of the powder. The red pill ingredients are still not listed. On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 01:56 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Yunan Bai Yao boxes now list their ingredients as > San qi 1.6g > San yu Cao 0.68g > Shan yao 0.52g > Chuan shan yao 0.40g > Lao guan cao 0.288g > Gao liang jiang 0.24g > Bai niu dan 0.20g > >>>>>I wander if these are true as it is still a guarded patent > Alon > <image.tiff> > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 , " " wrote: > Those are the (probable) ingredients of the powder. The red pill > ingredients are still not listed. > > > On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 01:56 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > Yunan Bai Yao boxes now list their ingredients as > > San qi 1.6g > > San yu Cao 0.68g > > Shan yao 0.52g > > Chuan shan yao 0.40g > > Lao guan cao 0.288g > > Gao liang jiang 0.24g > > Bai niu dan 0.20g > > >>>>>I wonder if these are true as it is still a guarded patent > > Alon Alon, Z'ev: I would guess that these are only *some* of the ingredients in Yunnan Bai Yao. I haven't made up a sample of the above formula to try to see if it works as well. I always enjoy telling patients that the little red pill is for gun shot wounds (one of the indications on the enclosed info paper). Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 can you inform us on Bao Xian Zi thanks Yosef Pollack Licensed Acupuncturist (773) 472-2600 office (773) 907-8810 home (773) 490-7259 cell ----Original Message Follows---- "James Ramholz" Re: San Qi and bleeding Sun, 01 Jun 2003 23:45:17 -0000 , "" wrote: > Those are the (probable) ingredients of the powder. The red pill > ingredients are still not listed. > > > On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 01:56 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > Yunan Bai Yao boxes now list their ingredients as > > San qi 1.6g > > San yu Cao 0.68g > > Shan yao 0.52g > > Chuan shan yao 0.40g > > Lao guan cao 0.288g > > Gao liang jiang 0.24g > > Bai niu dan 0.20g > > >>>>>I wonder if these are true as it is still a guarded patent > > Alon Alon, Z'ev: I would guess that these are only *some* of the ingredients in Yunnan Bai Yao. I haven't made up a sample of the above formula to try to see if it works as well. I always enjoy telling patients that the little red pill is for gun shot wounds (one of the indications on the enclosed info paper). Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 , " Brian Carter " <bbcarter@p...> wrote: To > their disservice, my writings have been taken partially and out of context > before. and to your service, this article was quoted with a link back to the entire text clearly stated as such. This should be everyone's policy when quoting. To be clear: I agreed with your general caution about presurgical use I disagreed with your more general speculation that YNBY might cause strokes and your suggestion that it was more appropriate for stopping bleeding than moving stasis. However my words were also opinion, just counter to yours, with no greater weight. They were not meant to be construed as a correction. I asked for opinions of others on this matter as my interest is in soliciting multiple positions from a variety of backgrounds. that way I can make an informed decision. That is also part of medicine as I see it. the clinical dialog between practitioners. Your position provided one angle, with which some disagreed in part or whole and with which others agreed in part or whole. I personally found the discussion illuminating on all acounts, but have not changed my original position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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