Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 >>>there is the pi wei lun on yin fire according to some. but I wouldn't mind if sharon laid out one more time the pathomechanism of vacuity heat in yang vacuity with NO yin vacuity. I understand the absence of true yin xu signs, but where does the heat come from?...<<< As I understand it, the yin and yang essence and source qi create and regulate the ministerial fire, which is the mechanism of yang energy for the rest of the body, and which is regulated in its flow throughout the body by the Liv/GB complex beginning at puberty, as well as the SJ throughout life (Shaoyang/Shaoyin again). The ministerial fire is a separate heat from the kd yang. The healthy functioning interplay of yin and yang in the lower burner maintain the integrity of the mingmen. When either or both is/are vacuous, then the ministerial fire tends to go out of control and, like all heat, rises. If the Liv/GB influence is stagnant, this can eventually back up on the mingmen and cause it to implode or destabilize, thus setting the ministerial fire out of control. If dampness from the middle burner percolates downward onto the mingmen, this can act like grease on an oil fire, causing it to spatter up and out of control. If the Chong and Ren become destabilized for whatever reason, this can throw the mingmen out of stability, because the Chong, being the sea of blood, controls yin, and the Ren controls qi, albeit yin qi, making a yin/yang controlling pair. So it is not essentially a matter of yin or yang vacuity that causes heat to rise but of instability in the mingmen due to the lack of yin and yang in right relationship, as Sharon might say. IMHO, any yin/yang dysfunction in the body which is severe enough or goes on long enough could eventually throw the mingmen out of whack. Joseph Garner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 >>>...Joseph, what was the specific reference to fullness without repletion? I missed that.... Doug<<< Doug, During Craig Mitchell's presentation on Ban Xia Xie Xin Tang, while discussing his insomnia case history, he spoke about glomus and said that the "gestalt" for glomus (or at least mixed heat/cold glomus), and thus for Ban Xia Xie Xin Tang presentations in general, is "fullness without repletion." Looking at all the case histories for BXXXT in the handout, they all seem to me to fit that "gestalt." I used to think of fullness and repletion as being synonymous, but no longer. Glomus patterns are discussed in Craig's/Nigel's/Feng's SHL translation beginning on page 228, wherein glomus is described, among other things, as a "formless evil." Joseph Garner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Thanks again, and all working it, for the conference. A few random things: As far as more sophisticated theory in books, I tell my students to read " advanced " texts like the Clavey book, Liu's Warm Diseases book and to some extent Jiao Shude. These give better understanding of Qi than anything else out there. Thankfully the market place is supporting these. Of course we would all welcome an advanced basic theory book or chapter. A couple things from the conference. Is there a source I can look in for deficient heat coming from other causes than yin xu? I admit, like the hypothetical students, confused me. Joseph, what was the specific reference to fullness without repletion? I missed that. And on Wiseman, I'm not that convinced we should accept his terminology across the board. There are those dozen weird terms that I think we should not accept as a standard. There, I said it. I've been to Northern Yugoslavia, Slovenia, a couple of times and they have a whole medicine built out of different honeys. You can go into a store and choose from 100 or so bottles. next time, maybe we could introduce ourselves at the beginning of the conference. A suggestion. And finally, once again, if you are replying to a post, please only put in relevant material and delete all unneeded text. doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 , wrote: > A couple things from the conference. Is there a source I can look in > for deficient heat coming from other causes than yin xu? I admit, like > the hypothetical students, confused me. there is the pi wei lun on yin fire according to some. but I wouldn't mind if sharon laid out one more time the pathomechanism of vacuity heat in yang vacuity with NO yin vacuity. I understand the absence of true yin xu signs, but where does the heat come from? > And on Wiseman, I'm not that convinced we should accept his terminology > across the board. There are those dozen weird terms that I think we > should not accept as a standard. There, I said it. Wiseman really is an " open " standard to the extent that term substitution is explicitly alowed with appropriate footnoting. Many translators regularly do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 , wrote: > A couple things from the conference. Is there a source I can look in > for deficient heat coming from other causes than yin xu? I admit, like > the hypothetical students, confused me. > Hello, The TCM diseas heading I suggest you look under is " Internal Damage Heat Effusion (Nei Shang Fa Re) " (in Wiseman terminology). You can find a brief discussion of it in the " Practical Therapeutics of Traditional Chinese Medicine " by Wu and Fischer . Of course, more detailed discussions of the pathomechanisms, so often left out of English language sources, can be found in Chinese Internal medicine textbooks. Basically, the vacuity patterns of Nei Shang Fa Re include yin vacuity, blood vacuity, qi vacuity, and yang vacuity.Interesting and important stuff. Take care, Bob Damone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 12 terms out of a few thousand is not bad, Douglas. On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 09:40 AM, wrote: > And on Wiseman, I'm not that convinced we should accept his terminology > across the board. There are those dozen weird terms that I think we > should not accept as a standard. There, I said it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 --- In , wrote: > A couple things from the conference. Is there a source I can look in > for deficient heat coming from other causes than yin xu? I admit, like > the hypothetical students, confused me. > Hello, At 5:15 PM +0000 6/18/03, bobdamone wrote: The TCM diseas heading I suggest you look under is " Internal Damage Heat Effusion (Nei Shang Fa Re) " (in Wiseman terminology). You can find a brief discussion of it in the " Practical Therapeutics of Traditional Chinese Medicine " by Wu and Fischer . Of course, more detailed discussions of the pathomechanisms, so often left out of English language sources, can be found in Chinese Internal medicine textbooks. Basically, the vacuity patterns of Nei Shang Fa Re include yin vacuity, blood vacuity, qi vacuity, and yang vacuity.Interesting and important stuff. --- I'm wondering if this isn't also muddled up with deficiency fever. For example, with bu zhong yi qi tang, there can be fever due to qi vacuity and sinking of yang. Bensky (F & S, pg 242) says " the thirst is for warm beverages, which distinguishes this condition from that due to heat from deficiency. " Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote: > > > , > > wrote: > >> A couple things from the conference. Is there a source I can look in > >> for deficient heat coming from other causes than yin xu? I admit, like > >> the hypothetical students, confused me. > >> > >Hello, > > >At 5:15 PM +0000 6/18/03, bobdamone wrote: > >The TCM diseas heading I suggest you look under is " Internal Damage Heat > >Effusion (Nei Shang Fa Re) " (in Wiseman terminology). You can find a brief > >discussion of it in the " Practical Therapeutics of Traditional Chinese > >Medicine " by Wu and Fischer . Of course, more detailed discussions of the > >pathomechanisms, so often left out of English language sources, can be found > >in Chinese Internal medicine textbooks. > > > >Basically, the vacuity patterns of Nei Shang Fa Re include yin vacuity, blood > >vacuity, qi vacuity, and yang vacuity.Interesting and important stuff. > --- > > I'm wondering if this isn't also muddled up with deficiency fever. > For example, with bu zhong yi qi tang, there can be fever due to qi > vacuity and sinking of yang. Bensky (F & S, pg 242) says " the thirst is > for warm beverages, which distinguishes this condition from that due > to heat from deficiency. " > > Rory > -- Hi Rory, You are absolutely right; the qi vacuity pattern of nei shang fa re is synonymous with " [qi]deficiency fever " . Bu zhong yi qi tang is one of the representative formulas for qi vacuity (deficiency) fever. I think for clarity I would have added that the thirst differentiation may help to differentiate yin vacuity heat effusion(thirst for cool) from qi vacuity heat effusion or yang vacuity heat(thirst for warm) Nice to see you at the conference, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 , " " wrote: > there is the pi wei lun on yin fire according to some. but I wouldn't mind if sharon laid out one more time the pathomechanism of vacuity heat in yang vacuity with NO yin vacuity. I understand the absence of true yin xu signs, but where does the heat come from? >>> : One pattern is due to spleen qi xu and there isn't adequate communication with the stomach. Consequently, heat rises along the yangming (which holds lots of qi and blood) channel; it also causes sweating. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 I understand the absence of true yin xu signs, but where does the heat come from?>>>>The yang looses root alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 fullness and repletion >>>I think you a mixing symptom/sign with diagnosis alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 >>>fullness and repletion >>>I think you a mixing symptom/sign with diagnosis alon<<< Alon, I don't know why my letters are suddenly typing so large. Anyway, perhaps you are right, but I am just quoting Craig Mitchell. To me, these are both symptoms, the lack of repletion perhaps overlapping into a sign or combo symptom/sign. "Fullness" refers to the glomus which a patient experiences as a strong bloating sensation in the epigastrium. "Without repletion" refers to the fact that the epigastrium does not feel hard to the patient and is not worsened on palpation pressure applied either by the patient or the practitioner. As I understand it. Joseph Garner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Fullness" refers to the glomus which a patient experiences as a strong bloating sensation in the epigastrium. "Without repletion" refers to the fact that the epigastrium does not feel hard to the patient and is not worsened on palpation pressure applied either by the patient or the practitioner >>>Correct Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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