Guest guest Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 Emmanuel said: " Which leads me to believe that Cara is correct about prednisone that it causes the recurrence every summer. In fact I had it every summer from 1978 to 1989 even when I had no contact with any forest area. James Ramholz's description of the revenge cycle comes to mind with this, too. Prednisone for those that understand the molecular mechanisms is a very heavy drug. As a steroid synthetic version of the hormone cortisol, it binds a cell receptor and actually enters the cell. It also enters the cell's nucleus and " docks " on the DNA forcing a cellular response or a cellular inhibition. Steroids and thyroid hormone are among the very few molecules that act that deeply and powerfully. " Ya- I've definitely heard the view that steroids only suppress the pathogen, and/or or move it to a deeper locus- but I wonder if you could go a bit further with the molecular pathology? The steroid forces cellular inhibition, presumably stopping the inflammation- and in the meantime all the oil gets washed off the skin, so that by the time the steroid is stopped, there is no more pathogen to cause the irritation. But for Cara's view to be true, the pathogen would have to linger, or penetrate- and how can a plant oil penetrate the skin, and where would it lodge itself for 9-12 months? Or is this something more homeopathic you're postulating, where it is the reaction that recurs without need of the pathogen? B Brian Benjamin Carter, M.Sci., L.Ac. http://www.pulsemed.org/briancarterbio.htm Acupuncturist & Herbalist Editor, The Pulse of Oriental Medicine Columnist, Acupuncture Today (619) 208-1432 San Diego (866) 206-9069 x 5284 Tollfree Voicemail The PULSE of Oriental Medicine http://www.pulsemed.org/ The General Public's Guide to Chinese Medicine since 1999... 9 Experts, 240+ Articles, 195,000+ readers.... Our free e-zine BEING WELL keeps you up to date Sign up NOW. Send a blank email to: beingwellnewsletter- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 Brian, I saw a congruence with Cara's comments about yearly returns of the poison oak rash, James Ramholz comments about the five stage - one year revenge cycle, and my own yearly experience with poison oak returns whether I actually contacted poison oak or just stayed at home and still got it. I can't further elucidate this congruence of those observations with any molecular biology explanation. Perhaps the intrepid James Ramholz could muster the courage to make comments. Or perhaps redoubtable Cara has further comments. As Alon has noted, the oldest advice of all is don't wet and don't touch. Why on earth would this work for even a select group of people ... 1/4 of the bell curve or whatever? I have an additional aside here to you. I have to admit, Brian, when I was closer to your age, I rather enjoyed finding answers to difficult questions. As I've aged and more and more poetry (of various kinds) has percolated its way through me, I'm finding questions to be ever more compelling and satisfying all by themselves ... that is to say without answers. By resisting the temptation to completely answer a question, one is forced to keep one's eyes open and remain alert and mindful. Kind of an interesting practice. I've actually identified this little trick of consciousness practiced slightly more often by professional women than by professional men. Thus, when I find this attitude displayed in a gentleman of some accomplishment, I take special note. All the Best, Emmanuel Segmen - Brian Carter Saturday, June 21, 2003 4:03 PM Re: Re: Re: poison oak and ivy Emmanuel said:"Which leads me to believe that Cara is correct about prednisone that itcauses the recurrence every summer. In fact I had it every summer from 1978to 1989 even when I had no contact with any forest area. James Ramholz'sdescription of the revenge cycle comes to mind with this, too. Prednisonefor those that understand the molecular mechanisms is a very heavy drug. Asa steroid synthetic version of the hormone cortisol, it binds a cellreceptor and actually enters the cell. It also enters the cell's nucleusand "docks" on the DNA forcing a cellular response or a cellular inhibition.Steroids and thyroid hormone are among the very few molecules that act thatdeeply and powerfully."Ya- I've definitely heard the view that steroids only suppress the pathogen,and/or or move it to a deeper locus- but I wonder if you could go a bitfurther with the molecular pathology? The steroid forces cellularinhibition, presumably stopping the inflammation- and in the meantime allthe oil gets washed off the skin, so that by the time the steroid isstopped, there is no more pathogen to cause the irritation. But for Cara'sview to be true, the pathogen would have to linger, or penetrate- and howcan a plant oil penetrate the skin, and where would it lodge itself for 9-12months? Or is this something more homeopathic you're postulating, where itis the reaction that recurs without need of the pathogen?BBrian Benjamin Carter, M.Sci., L.Ac.http://www.pulsemed.org/briancarterbio.htmAcupuncturist & HerbalistEditor, The Pulse of Oriental MedicineColumnist, Acupuncture Today(619) 208-1432 San Diego(866) 206-9069 x 5284 Tollfree VoicemailThe PULSE of Oriental Medicinehttp://www.pulsemed.org/The General Public's Guide to ChineseMedicine since 1999... 9 Experts,240+ Articles, 195,000+ readers....Our free e-zine BEING WELL keeps youup to date Sign up NOW. Send a blank email to:beingwellnewsletter-Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 I could only speculate here, but I would point out that like with any pathogen, it is the body's response that is paramount. The rash is the body's response to the toxin. Steroids repress the body's response. .. . so the body's response may return as a 'delayed reaction' some months or even years later, even without the original pathogen. I think this idea is behind what Chinese medicine calls latent (lurking) qi. I don't think that necessarily the original pathogen remains in many cases of latent qi, but that the body's response has been repressed to a deeper level, and remains dormant until a new stimulus or taxation starts it up again. A fascinating subject. On Saturday, June 21, 2003, at 04:03 PM, Brian Carter wrote: > But for Cara's > view to be true, the pathogen would have to linger, or penetrate- and > how > can a plant oil penetrate the skin, and where would it lodge itself > for 9-12 > months? Or is this something more homeopathic you're postulating, > where it > is the reaction that recurs without need of the pathogen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 it's interesting that jewelweed and impatiens are similar in structure: both having tuberous stems. for those of you that have not seen jewel weed: put a leaf bottom side up under water: the leaf appears to be metallic silver. Magic! children ( of all ages)delight in this. Cara Thanks, Ed. I'm here in your general neighborhood near San Francisco Bay. I've been think of growing impatiens on my patio. Perhaps I'll put it together with jewelweed. Good information. Emmanuel Segmen - Ed Kasper LAc. www.HappyHerbalist.com Saturday, June 21, 2003 1:22 PM Re: poison oak and ivy Local plants that are used for poison oak and ivyJEWELWEED appears to be a natural cure for poison ivy and poison oak The plant usually grows in wet areas where poison ivy grows and has atuberous stem. The flowers appear in the fall and are a golden yellow. Takethe plant (all parts) and steep it in water for about 1/2 hour; then strainand store the liquid in the freezer (ice cube trays work the best) or youcan put it in canning jars and store it. Dab the liquid on the infected areaseveral times a day. Usually within a day or two the rash dries up. Keepsfresh for 48 hours, but may be frozen or canned. Frozen in an ice cube trayyou can take out and thaw what you need, when you need it, or planning on anice walk in the fields. Another one is the IMPATIENS plantTake every part (except the roots) of IMPATIENS plant, break it up intopieces & pop those in a blender with a couple of cups of water & whiz it allup on puree. This releases all the juices in the leaves, flowers and stems.Bring that mixture to a boil and simmer for a couple of minutes; cool downand store in the refrigerator. You can strain it if you want to but we justleave it as is! For some reason this takes the itch out and blisters do notcome up. It also works for poison oak. All we do is grab the jar and put theliquid on with a cotton ball or just with fingers if in a hurry! We also useit for mosquito bites and the itching stops immediately! If you get amosquito bite just pick a leaf of the impatiens, "smash" it and scratch iton the bite.I believe these plants are in bloom the same time that poison oak and ivyare, as well as in the same area.Ed Kasper, LAc Santa Cruz, CABTW, I am not afflicted by poison oak and ivy (knock on wood) BUT my oldersister is terribly so.In my younger days I remember folioing in the grass with a friend and shewould came down with a bad case of poison oak and I'd just be free.Message: 21 Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:02:53 -0500 "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcusRe: Re: poison oak and ivyI know all the downsides of steroids, but when you're this allergic, it'sthe only humane solution.>>>>Steroids are actually not that bed if taken short term. Its long termuse that is horribleAlon Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:09:09 -0700 "Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmenRe: Re: poison oak and ivyBrian Carter wrote:I endedup in the ER, surrounded by medical students and interns privileged towitness what the attending called "the most advanced case he'd seen." Thatwas after nearly a week of being isolated at home, feeling like a leper,while the sores weeped... they gave me a prednisone taper, which workedwonders.I know all the downsides of steroids, but when you're this allergic, it'sthe only humane solution.Brian,Your experience is also mine. I've been to the ER at UC San Francisco. Iused to be profoundly allergic to poison oak until I got some advice fromDr. Kang in 1989. I've only had it very mildly a couple of times since.Since Dr. Kang is a dermatology specialist, I asked him what his formula wasfor poison oak. I also presented him with a several pustules between myfingers near the dorsum of the hand. His answer was simple. He didn't useany medicine. He said the cure was simpler than putting together someexpensive and time consuming salve. He said as Cara has said to wash itthoroughly with detergent. The key then is to dry it thoroughly and keep itabsolutely dry. He said also to absolutely resist the temptation to touchit at all. I stood there staring at him with the itchiness mounting on myhand. In the years leading up to that moment I had gotten prednisone onceevery summer for a full body bout of poison oak. I thought of pleading mycase again to him with a renewed sense of desperation, but on gut level Ihad a sense he was right. He stated the case with such calm finality, Isensed he was quite clear about it. Since I had already washed that handthoroughly, the only part of the treatment left to me was to keep the handdry and not to touch it. In 24 hours the pustules had dried up and werereduced in size. After another 24 hours they were gone. I got a little bitof poison oak the next summer, and treated it the same. Since then I'vebrushed against poison oak regularly and haven't had a reaction again.Apparently I'm now desensitized.---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release 6/18/2003Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 In the meantime, I'm patiently waiting to see what sort of catastrophe may befall the women who use Botox. As a hidden toxin will probably affect the channels it is injected into and, then, affect somewhere more interior. It will be interesting to see to which area it gravitates and what the s/s are going to be. >>>>>Why are you assuming that is will have such negative effects? What area is toxicity of herbal formulas accumulate in and 20 years later cause problems? or is it just technophobia? Or it just feels good to assume such things Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 - James Ramholz Saturday, June 21, 2003 11:40 PM Re: Re: poison oak and ivy , "Emmanuel Segmen" wrote:> I saw a congruence with Cara's comments about yearly returns of the poison oak rash, James Ramholz comments about the five stage - one year revenge cycle, and my own yearly experience with poison oak returns whether I actually contacted poison oak or just stayed at home and still got it. I can't further elucidate this congruence of those observations with any molecular biology explanation. Perhaps the intrepid James Ramholz could muster the courage to make comments. >>>Emmanuel:Without seeing your pulses and being able to know for sure, I can only speculate why your poison oak acts up in summer again---even without renewed exposure. Most likely it is because it's not entirely out of your system. Some of the oils may have penetrated deeper [into fatty tissue?] and, perhaps, the cordisone also pushed some of it deeper until the summer's heat (metal/skin is at its lowest or weakest point during the fire season) pushes it back up to the surface. So the pathogen is hidden until circumstances help bring it to the surface again. So I'm looking at it as both an exterior/interior condition [summer heat brings it to the surface again], as well as in terms of 5-Phases [summer heat as well as the poison's heat] attacking the skin.If you can locate the localized parts of the affected channel(s) in the pulses you might catch the profile of the condition.In the meantime, I'm patiently waiting to see what sort of catastrophe may befall the women who use Botox. As a hidden toxin will probably affect the channels it is injected into and, then, affect somewhere more interior. It will be interesting to see to which area it gravitates and what the s/s are going to be. Jim (working hard to achieve 'redoubtablity') Ramholz Jim, Indeed, both redoubtability and intrepidness belong to you. Unfortunately or fortunately I can not run the experiment of noting the channels afflicted nor test my pulses for the affliction. The allergic affliction is truly gone. The initial discipline of keeping absolutely dry and avoiding touch to the area was difficult. I only needed to do it again one year later in 1990, and have never had an outbreak since. I have since contacted poison oak dozens times on Mount Diablo, along the Dipsea Trail near Mount Tam and Muir Woods, and in the East Bay regional parks where I've been a single track distance runner for years. I sense that the allergic affliction began with poison ivy from childhood contact in Cape Cod. I'm an allergic/atopic type of the light skinned blue-eyed variety. One year in the early 1980s I presented to the dermatology clinic at UCSF with a poison oak look-alike rash. The chief of dermatology with his array of residents noted that the rash in this case was perfectly bilateral and so was not surprised that I had only been studying my biochemistry at home. I had no outdoor contact with Rhus. He indicated the rash was stress induced. In that case it was along the heart meridian inside my elbows and along the medial anterior aspect of the proximal forearm. This dermatologist was the first to suggest that not scratching it would cause it to resolve in 24 to 48 hours. I followed his suggestion, and it was true. My sense of curiousity was aroused when your words and Cara's coincided to suggest a pattern about the use of prednisone and a yearly return of Rhus rash. In the last five years especially I've started to develop an attunement to the seasonal energies that I haven't practiced as much since I had joined a farming commune as a 21 year old moving to Minnesota. In recent years I've been practicing it with attunements to seasonal nutrition and meditation with attunements to seasonal changes ... peaks and valleys in various qualities ... observing tensions and transformations between seasons. Studying locally with Nam Singh and his teacher Liu Ming has made me become more observant of both the seasons and the yearly cycles that you've brought up. I'll discuss my thoughts with them as well. Thank you for your "redoubtable" and gently thoughtful considerations. All the Best, Emmanuel Segmen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 - Alon Marcus Sunday, June 22, 2003 9:18 AM Re: Re: Re: poison oak and ivy In the meantime, I'm patiently waiting to see what sort of catastrophe may befall the women who use Botox. As a hidden toxin will probably affect the channels it is injected into and, then, affect somewhere more interior. It will be interesting to see to which area it gravitates and what the s/s are going to be. >>>>>Why are you assuming that is will have such negative effects? What area is toxicity of herbal formulas accumulate in and 20 years later cause problems? or is it just technophobia? Or it just feels good to assume such things Alon Alon, Of all the people on list James Ramholz may be the least technophobic as well as the least dreamy feel-good sort of individual. Are you expressing technophilia? One need not be technophobic nor dreamy to observe that all actions have corresponding reactions. Such things are neither good nor bad, but simply display themselves in the cycles of life's homeostasis. You can plan for them ... or not. James was noting that at some point he anticipated a reaction and wondered what it would be. Seems a reasonable "assumption" ... no? All the Best, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Z'ev, This is such a clear response. Thank you. I am fascinated by this cycle of repression and renewal. Clearly, many pathologies arise from this less than direct cycle repressions and stimuli. Emmanuel Segmen ---- Original Message ----- Z'ev wrote:I could only speculate here, but I would point out that like with any pathogen, it is the body's response that is paramount. The rash is the body's response to the toxin. Steroids repress the body's response. . . so the body's response may return as a 'delayed reaction' some months or even years later, even without the original pathogen.I think this idea is behind what Chinese medicine calls latent (lurking) qi. I don't think that necessarily the original pathogen remains in many cases of latent qi, but that the body's response has been repressed to a deeper level, and remains dormant until a new stimulus or taxation starts it up again.A fascinating subject.On Saturday, June 21, 2003, at 04:03 PM, Brian Carter wrote:> But for Cara's view to be true, the pathogen would have to linger, or penetrate- and how can a plant oil penetrate the skin, and where would it lodge itself for 9-12 months? Or is this something more homeopathic you're postulating, where it is the reaction that recurs without need of the pathogen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 You can plan for them ... or not. James was noting that at some point he anticipated a reaction and wondered what it would be. Seems a reasonable "assumption" ... no? >>>>Why assume it will be negative? It may be i have no idea. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Of all the people on list James Ramholz may be the least technophobic as well as the least dreamy feel-good sort of individual. Are you expressing technophilia? >>>I was not really talking at James as a person, more as an idea expressed Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 I could only speculate here, but I would point out that like with any pathogen, it is the body's response that is paramount. The rash is the body's response to the toxin. >>>>Well than giving cold or cooling herbs that treat Hot toxin rashes (ie the body response) would be the same. It really depends on perspective and assumptions. May be this balanced treatment is also driving it deeper because it does not allow the body to "experience" the toxins. Certainly what an homeopath may say.So are we going back to "herbs"are good and pharmaceuticals are bad? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Very thought provoking, Alon, but my understanding differs. While one might use cold bitter medicinals as a local application, one wouldn't necessarily use only cold bitter medicinals internally (if at all, in some patterns) to resolve the condition. Chinese herbal medicine is heteropathic (using opposites to treat, cold for hot, etc.), as you've pointed out, and not homeopathic. But triturized minimum doses work by a different mechanism, not completely understood, from herbal medicines. While modern pharmaceuticals are most often used heteropathically, if we look at prednisone pharmacologically and compare it, say, with coptis, I don't know if we are going to find the same actions on skin rashes. There is the question of dosage and strength as well. In both pharmacology (Arndt-Schulz Law) and Chinese medicine (the Nei Jing teachings on flavors), we find that increase potencies, length of time take, and/or dosages cause a different medical action and reaction from smaller dosages, time periods and potencies. As you noted earlier, a shorter time and small dose of prednisone, giving as a local cream, will have a less deleterious effect than taking it orally in large doses for extended periods. On Sunday, June 22, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > I could only speculate here, but I would point out that like with any > pathogen, it is the body's response that is paramount. The rash is the > body's response to the toxin. > >>>>Well than giving cold or cooling herbs that treat Hot toxin rashes > (ie the body response) would be the same. It really depends on > perspective and assumptions. May be this balanced treatment is also > driving it deeper because it does not allow the body to " experience " > the toxins. Certainly what an homeopath may say.So are we going back > to " herbs " are good and pharmaceuticals are bad? > Alon > <image.tiff> > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 While modern pharmaceuticals are most often used heteropathically, if we look at prednisone pharmacologically and compare it, say, with coptis, I don't know if we are going to find the same actions on skin rashes. There is the question of dosage and strength as well. In both pharmacology (Arndt-Schulz Law) and Chinese medicine (the Nei Jing teachings on flavors), we find that increase potencies, length of time take, and/or dosages cause a different medical action and reaction from smaller dosages, time periods and potencies. As you noted earlier, a shorter time and small dose of prednisone, giving as a local cream, will have a less deleterious effect than taking it orally in large doses for extended periods.>>>>Z'ev i agree with all you say. I just question some of our assumptions of safety. Since it is extremely difficult to tell what long term effects are going to be. We may be doing many things on gut and wishful feelings. I can make a case for a steroid being a healthful treatment as well. Of course it would be mechanistic speculation. Our discussions always need to be in a king of ""marks for their speculative, systemic theory based conclusions. As much as i think the "evidence based"paradigm is limited, it as shown quite clearly how difficult it is to see what long term effects of any intervention is. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Alon quotes Emmanuel: You can plan for them ... or not. James was noting that at some point he anticipated a reaction and wondered what it would be. Seems a reasonable "assumption" ... no? Alon writes: >>>Why assume it will be negative? It may be i have no idea. Emmanuel actually wrote: One need not be technophobic nor dreamy to observe that all actions have corresponding reactions. Such things are neither good nor bad, but simply display themselves in the cycles of life's homeostasis. You can plan for them ... or not. Dear Alon, As indicated "such things are neither good nor bad". For the second time, neither James nor I "assumed" that the results would be negative nor positive. We only indicated we anticipated results. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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