Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Z'ev I definitely agree with the most part of what you are saying... but my point was more along the lines of the definition of latent qi (evil, heat or whatever) specific from the wenbing era. Just because something lurks in the body can we call it LP? I do not believe so. If so, any real meaning of the term is lost. This 'mistake' I feel is done too often in our western TCM community. 'We' label everything from herpes to AIDS to MS, and now BOTOX to wenbing lurking pathogen... It gets ridiculous because Western Medicine have proven that hundreds of virus's lurk in the body until an opportune time to attack. One could say that almost anything is a lurking pathogen, where does this get us? I think an adequate test to see if the theory holds is if the treatment principles and formulas for LP pan out for these diseases.. as we have talked about before they DO NOT the majority of the time...but also, how does it PRESENT! Mixing western & eastern etiologies (latent viruses etc) only complicates the matter. These numerous `new' diseases might sometimes present in a wenbing LP style, but we have to understand what that means to recognize it. Also, I believe the most important thing is if one is going to start applying theoretical concepts to new diseases or situations one should be VERY educated in the topic. Dr. Liu is very well qualified for this. But is the average westerner? This is where it hurts, when one does not have the education & experience to MSU…. Obviously people don't understand their limitations because I have read some really out there stuff from westerners that just like to MSU without any grounding in Chinese or sometimes basic theory… I ask again, what about BOTOX gives people the impression that it will present like a LP? You say " How can there be > anything wrong with using models to suggest that new phenomena may have > a long-term effect on health? " This seems fine on the surface... but all of sudden we have ourselves saying botox might create LPs, ... But were is the proof, either theoretical or practical??? why LP? We must be grounded somewhere? Bensky's & Dr. Liu's examples (below) are grounded in not only clinical observation, but both of them are extremely educated in the past theory that they discuss. and correct me if I'm wrong, but all the major theoretical leaps (wenbing, SHL etc), were not from theoretical thinking, but from practical experience... This is what works, and now we have the theory. I still believe that practice, the majority of the time, precedes the theory... It is that way in music, art etc. I am curious what you think, when is someone able to MSU? - , , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Jason, > Theoretical constructs are designed for speculation, as long as > people recognize they are using working models. How can there be > anything wrong with using models to suggest that new phenomena may have > a long-term effect on health? It is like trying out different > equations with various theories in physics. It is part of the learning > and teaching process. Without it, there cannot be growth. > In Dr. Liu's Warm Disease text, he offers the possibility that many > drugs such as antidepressants may cause latent qi. And Dan Bensky > pointed out in his CHA lecture that while we may not use precipitating > medicinals such as da huang in modern practice for exterior disorders, > antibiotics can cause diarrhea in many patients, allowing the pathogen > to sink inwards. While these ideas are 'speculative', with time > clinical experience will determine what will work and what will not. > We shouldn't take it as gospel, but we shouldn't reject it either. The > botox phenomenon may well lead to a form of latent qi or transmuted > pattern. Time will tell. > > For me, the latent qi model has a more specific application, as in chun > wen/spring warmth disease, and more broad application, to suppression > of disease factors deep in the yin interior. > Remember that Jin-Yuan physicians also applied classical theory in > new ways. > Are we up for that task? Perhaps not, but I don't think it will > hurt to try, as long as our limitations are understood. > > > On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 05:40 PM, wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Jason, I have a bit of a challenging time with the harsh wording of your post. We are merely exploring thoughts and concepts, that is the point of this forum, to allow a space for us to communicate ideas. I agree with you - ideas must be grounded in practice and the effects of botox and other new phenomena like it will reveal itself as time goes on. Your thinking and research shows your passion for the medicine and I am glad to see your attitude of "sticking with what we know from practice". chinese medicine over the years evoloved from constant openness and integration of new ideas and situations as they presented themselves. lets maintain the spirit of cordial respect between practitioners on this list. Eti < wrote: Z'evI definitely agree with the most part of what you are saying... but my point was more along the lines of the definition of latent qi (evil, heat or whatever) specific from the wenbing era. Just because something lurks in the body can we call it LP? I do not believe so. If so, any real meaning of the term is lost. This 'mistake' I feel is done too often in our western TCM community. 'We' label everything from herpes to AIDS to MS, and now BOTOX to wenbing lurking pathogen... It gets ridiculous because Western Medicine have proven that hundreds of virus's lurk in the body until an opportune time to attack. One could say that almost anything is a lurking pathogen, where does this get us? I think an adequate test to see if the theory holds is if the treatment principles and formulas for LP pan out for these diseases.. as we have talked about before they DO NOT the majority of the time...but also, how does it PRESENT! Mixing western & eastern etiologies (latent viruses etc) only complicates the matter. These numerous `new' diseases might sometimes present in a wenbing LP style, but we have to understand what that means to recognize it. Also, I believe the most important thing is if one is going to start applying theoretical concepts to new diseases or situations one should be VERY educated in the topic. Dr. Liu is very well qualified for this. But is the average westerner? This is where it hurts, when one does not have the education & experience to MSU…. Obviously people don't understand their limitations because I have read some really out there stuff from westerners that just like to MSU without any grounding in Chinese or sometimes basic theory…I ask again, what about BOTOX gives people the impression that it will present like a LP? You say "How can there be > anything wrong with using models to suggest that new phenomena may have > a long-term effect on health?"This seems fine on the surface... but all of sudden we have ourselves saying botox might create LPs, ... But were is the proof, either theoretical or practical??? why LP? We must be grounded somewhere? Bensky's & Dr. Liu's examples (below) are grounded in not only clinical observation, but both of them are extremely educated in the past theory that they discuss.and correct me if I'm wrong, but all the major theoretical leaps (wenbing, SHL etc), were not from theoretical thinking, but from practical experience... This is what works, and now we have the theory. I still believe that practice, the majority of the time, precedes the theory... It is that way in music, art etc. I am curious what you think, when is someone able to MSU?-, , "" <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:> Jason,> Theoretical constructs are designed for speculation, as long as > people recognize they are using working models. How can there be > anything wrong with using models to suggest that new phenomena may have > a long-term effect on health? It is like trying out different > equations with various theories in physics. It is part of the learning > and teaching process. Without it, there cannot be growth.> In Dr. Liu's Warm Disease text, he offers the possibility that many > drugs such as antidepressants may cause latent qi. And Dan Bensky > pointed out in his CHA lecture that while we may not use precipitating > medicinals such as da huang in modern practice for exterior disorders, > antibiotics can cause diarrhea in many patients, allowing the pathogen > to sink inwards. While these ideas are 'speculative', with time > clinical experience will determine what will work and what will not. > We shouldn't take it as gospel, but we shouldn't reject it either. The > botox phenomenon may well lead to a form of latent qi or transmuted > pattern. Time will tell.> > For me, the latent qi model has a more specific application, as in chun > wen/spring warmth disease, and more broad application, to suppression > of disease factors deep in the yin interior.> Remember that Jin-Yuan physicians also applied classical theory in > new ways.> Are we up for that task? Perhaps not, but I don't think it will > hurt to try, as long as our limitations are understood.> > > On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 05:40 PM, wrote:> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 It gets ridiculous because Western Medicine have proven that hundreds of virus's lurk in the body until an opportune time to attack. One could say that almost anything is a lurking pathogen, where does this get us? I think an adequate test to see if the theory holds is if the treatment principles and formulas for LP pan out for these diseases.. >>>>The only meaning test Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Dr. Liu is very well qualified for this. But is the average westerner? This is where it hurts, when one does not have the education & experience to MSU…. >>>To me this is less important if one can show it clinically in a reliable setting. Sometimes it takes a more shallow (of different) understanding to make a breakthrough. These however must be real and not just sound good or logical Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 This seems fine on the surface... but all of sudden we have ourselves saying botox might create LPs, ... But were is the proof, either theoretical or practical??? why LP? >>>If i had to make a guess it probably result in local damage from poor nourishment. As i see it much of Jing-nourishment may travel via nerves (trophic factors) which botox blocks Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Jason, It was never my idea that botox was a latent pathogen. If someone proposes the idea, it should be discussed in light of the Chinese literature, thought out, and then observed in patients. This is the Chinese version of the 'scientific method'. As I said in an earlier post, my present understanding of latent qi is a suppressed response of the body to an exterior attack caused by wrong treatment, weak correct qi, or abnormal seasonal weather changes. It is not based on a particular virus, drug, or tissue particularly. Therefore, I am interested in potential long-term effects of botox treatment. . . .no matter what anyone calls it. On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 07:02 PM, wrote: > I definitely agree with the most part of what you are saying... but > my point was more along the lines of the definition of latent qi > (evil, heat or whatever) specific from the wenbing era. Just because > something lurks in the body can we call it LP? I do not believe so. > If so, any real meaning of the term is lost. This 'mistake' I feel > is done too often in our western TCM community. 'We' label > everything from herpes to AIDS to MS, and now BOTOX to wenbing > lurking pathogen... It gets ridiculous because Western Medicine have > proven that hundreds of virus's lurk in the body until an opportune > time to attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 I think it always has been a combination of the two. . .what my friend David Weininger, a chemist, calls the Chinese version of the scientific method. That is to observe a problem, apply theory, develop a methodology, and execute (clinical treatment). It is a seamless and beautiful unity between theory and clinical practice. That is one of the things I love about Chinese medicine. I don't think one can say that theory preceded practice or practice preceded theory. It is classic chicken or egg dilemma. They develop together, organically. The existence of the problem of the disease is tackled through the combination of the two. Chinese medicine is a rational medicine, based on application of theory to phenomena. It is not empiricism per se, where accidently treatments are found that 'work'. One applies the laws of yin and yang to the scope of human health in the context of clinical practice (you can say the laboratory of Chinese medicine) and observes results. Theory and practice are a unity, yin and yang, that nurture each other. I have recently been studying and translating the damp-warmth section of " Wen bing tiao bian/Systematic Differentiation of Warm Disease as part of my medical Chinese studies in collaboration with Dr. Fred Wong. I must say I am very impressed at the thinking process of the author (Dr. Wu Ju-tong) and how he ties the internal and internal environment, season, theory and treatment together. Just as Dr. Wu applied his tools of thought, theory and clinical practice to his time and place (Southern China in the late 18th century), we need to do this in our time as well. Are we qualified to do so? Time will tell. But the effort must be made. On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 07:02 PM, wrote: > and correct me if I'm wrong, but all the major theoretical leaps > (wenbing, SHL etc), were not from theoretical thinking, but from > practical experience... This is what works, and now we have the > theory. I still believe that practice, the majority of the time, > precedes the theory... It is that way in music, art etc. I am > curious what you think, when is someone able to MSU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 Eti, I greatly apologize if you and others found my words harsh... I too am exploring this idea, and just encouraging everyone to a) use the terms / ideas in a 'somewhat' Chinese/ standard way. b) at least give some justification for the statements made... I did not mean this to be constricting, so I am sorry... I am just curious why the LP idea is used. also at the same time explore what we really mean my LP, and maybe the way that it is being used is not the best... Finally, I want to emphasize that I am not taking the stance that we must only do what we know from practice, or that we must only do what we have been taught... We must also explore and try new things, there is just a fine line when one presents ideas from a purely theoretical concept, without any clinical proof, or strong theory to support it... Maybe there is both of these, that is why I am asking... thanx for keeping me straight eti, -Jason , Eti Domb <etidomb> wrote: > Jason, > > I have a bit of a challenging time with the harsh wording of your post. We are merely exploring thoughts and concepts, that is the point of this forum, to allow a space for us to communicate ideas. > > I agree with you - ideas must be grounded in practice and the effects of botox and other new phenomena like it will reveal itself as time goes on. Your thinking and research shows your passion for the medicine and I am glad to see your attitude of " sticking with what we know from practice " . chinese medicine over the years evoloved from constant openness and integration of new ideas and situations as they presented themselves. > > lets maintain the spirit of cordial respect between practitioners on this list. > > Eti > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Jason, > It was never my idea that botox was a latent pathogen. If someone > proposes the idea, it should be discussed in light of the Chinese > literature, thought out, and then observed in patients. I agree and never meant to say that it was your idea... It very well may create a lurking pathogen... Just not sure right now... This is the > Chinese version of the 'scientific method'. > As I said in an earlier post, my present understanding of latent qi > is a suppressed response of the body to an exterior attack caused by > wrong treatment, weak correct qi, or abnormal seasonal weather changes. > It is not based on a particular virus, drug, or tissue particularly. > Therefore, I am interested in potential long-term effects of botox > treatment. . . .no matter what anyone calls it. > Me too... So the question is has anyone seen or read anything so far? -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Dr. Liu is very > well qualified for this. But is the average westerner? This is where > it hurts, when one does not have the education & experience to MSU.. > >>>To me this is less important if one can show it clinically in a reliable setting. Sometimes it takes a more shallow (of different) understanding to make a breakthrough. These however must be real and not just sound good or logical > Alon Yes I agree... but Let me ask you, z'ev and anyone else... IF there is no clinical experience or observation, and person A has not enough theortical understanding to explore a topic like LP... What do you think if they start expanding upon this theory for a new disease? and then I write about it? and put it on the internet? Does this benifit the thinking of our medicine, or start to confuse it for others? I actually am not sure of the answer and am trying to ask this question in an open way.... -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 I must say I am very impressed at the thinking process of the author (Dr. Wu Ju-tong) and how he ties the internal and internal environment, season, theory and treatment together.>>>Z'ev are you sure that he did not first "came upon" treatments and than filled in the theory. Who knows Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 A resource I can recommend, Alon, is Marta Hansen's " Inventing a Tradition in " , about the development of the Warm Disease school out of previous concepts in the Shang Han Lun, adapting them to changing times and conditions. From his writings, it seems that Dr. Wu had the SHL in mind in developing his observations and prescriptions. An interesting topic, theory and treatment and their relationship. Harris Coulter's Divided Legacy in four volumes is on just this dynamic throughout the history of medicine in the West. On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 07:46 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > I must say I am very impressed at the thinking process of the author > (Dr. Wu Ju-tong) and how he ties the internal and internal environment, > season, theory and treatment together. > >>>Z'ev are you sure that he did not first " came upon " treatments and > than filled in the theory. Who knows > Alon > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 use the terms / ideas in a 'somewhat' Chinese/ standard way. >>>I also anchorage people to use terms/ideas in a new way that is at some way comes from their OM training. I do not believe we need to justify everything from Chinese literature, new or old Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 What do you think if they start expanding upon this theory for a new disease? and then I write about it? and put it on the internet? Does this benifit the thinking of our medicine, or start to confuse it for others? I actually am not sure of the answer and am trying to ask this question in an open way.... >>>The only benifit is that somebody may actually test it and then hopefully share. I would however hope that people would write only often some clinical real life feedback. Otherwise it is only more theory.I think we have quite a lot of that Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 Shang Han Lun, adapting them to changing times and conditions. From his writings, it seems that Dr. Wu had the SHL in mind in developing his observations and prescriptions >>>I am sure that is true, but what came first clinical observation or theory? Do we know? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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