NEW lurking pathogen article & Case study

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> The latent qi warm disease school is perhaps the most modern

> development of traditional theory in China. I don't think it is a

> complete approach at this point, and there have been many

historical

> interruptions, such as the introduction of biomedicine and its

> antibiotics in the late 19th-early 20th century.

>

> If clinical applications have failed so far, that doesn't

necessarily

> signal a dead end. I don't think we should write it off yet.

While I

> do not use this method clinically, I find it to be a good

conceptual

> tool in understanding some complex disease processes.

>

> My conclusion for now: latent qi warm disease theory is not a dead

end.

> Let's continue to study and develop it.

>

>

 

 

ChineseMedicineDoc.com

 

Trust me I am not at all shutting the door on this theory, I actually

do use it in practice, and just try to understand it 1st from a

Chinese perspective. I think to refine my thinking & point: It is

not that I am saying that latent viruses can't manifest as lurking

pathogens, because I think in some they situations do... but its more

about the individual + virus + climate etc. then specifically about

the virus or western disease. This is where the burden of proof

lies. If one wants to start calling (all) latent viruses lurking

pathogens and thinks wen bing theory can address this as a whole,

lets see the proof. If one can feel the virus in the pulse and can

then treat this with wenbing theory lets see it. If one treats

latent viruses with i.e. zang-fu treatments, than why change the

term. Nothing new… enough babble..

 

-

[Guest guest]

, " " . I

would add, however,

> that Michael is able to integrate information about viruses, stem

> cells, and other biomedical phenomena into the Chinese medical

> framework without compromising its integrity.

>

>

> On Friday, July 4, 2003, at 10:06 AM, wrote:

>

 

 

This is interesting, I would like to hear more. Does he have

writings that explain his system.

 

-

 

ChineseMedicineDoc.com

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, none. A few articles at his website, www.pinest.org,

and a few published articles in the CJOM journal, possibly available at

the CSOMA website.

 

 

On Friday, July 4, 2003, at 10:39 AM, wrote:

 

> This is interesting, I would like to hear more. Does he have

> writings that explain his system.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Unfortunately, none. A few articles at his website,

www.pinest.org, and a few published articles in the CJOM journal,

possibly available at the CSOMA website. >>>

 

 

Z'ev:

 

Outside of the poodle that sniffs out breast cancer, I don't see

anything on his site. You keep mentioning him from time to time as

an authority and teacher, but nothing is really ever explained.

 

Can you, at least, paraphrase some of his ideas or point them out in

your own articles?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

but nothing is really ever explained.

>>>I think this is the essence of Michael.

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " wrote:

> but nothing is really ever explained.

>>>I think this is the essence of Michael.

 

 

 

Alon:

 

That's unfortunate if he really has something to offer.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

The difficulty here is that Michael himself has chosen to limit his

public expression. He was trained and trains his students in a

lineage-based apprenticeship model. His word-of-mouth practice keeps

him booked for months in advance (his specialty is cancer), but he has

released precious little writing (so far). I know some Chinese

physicians have a tradition to wait until they are 60 years old to

write (according to Phillipe Riviere), perhaps Michael feels this way.

While I am a product of the present TCM education system in the West,

23 years ago, and didn't apprentice directly with Michael, my

occasional communications, visits and shared patients with Michael have

been inspirational for me to develop new directions in my study and

practice. He also guided me to the right sources for furthering my

development as a CM practitioner. I am sorry that I can't fill in the

details any more than this. I hope my book-in-progress will answer

some questions about how I've taken inspiration from different sources,

including Michael Broffman, to develop my practice.

 

Emmanuel Segmen is another individual on this list who has been

directly inspired by Michael's work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Friday, July 4, 2003, at 11:17 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

> , " " wrote:

>> Unfortunately, none. A few articles at his website,

> www.pinest.org, and a few published articles in the CJOM journal,

> possibly available at the CSOMA website. >>>

>

>

> Z'ev:

>

> Outside of the poodle that sniffs out breast cancer, I don't see

> anything on his site. You keep mentioning him from time to time as

> an authority and teacher, but nothing is really ever explained.

>

> Can you, at least, paraphrase some of his ideas or point them out in

> your own articles?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> The difficulty here is that Michael himself has chosen to limit

his public expression. >>>

 

 

Z'ev:

 

Can you eplain what you mentioned earlier about how he is " able to

integrate information about viruses, stem cells, and other

biomedical phenomena into the Chinese medical framework without

compromising its integrity " ?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim,

I am trying to dig up a fascinating article that Michael wrote on

stem-cell therapy, relating it to jing-essence issues. As soon as I

find it, I'll pass it along.

 

 

On Friday, July 4, 2003, at 07:03 PM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

>

>

>

> Z'ev:

>

> Can you eplain what you mentioned earlier about how he is " able to

> integrate information about viruses, stem cells, and other

> biomedical phenomena into the Chinese medical framework without

> compromising its integrity " ?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> I am trying to dig up a fascinating article that Michael wrote

on stem-cell therapy, relating it to jing-essence issues. As soon

as I find it, I'll pass it along. >>

 

 

Sounds very interesting. I look forward to it.

[Guest guest]

Dear Jason,

 

After several readings (and now some days of meditation), I'm finding that you have made the most succinct reply to the "lurking pathogen" concept. I believe you have successfully disengaged the "sound alikes" in the two paradigms of CM and WM. You've also noted the limitations of WM as to it's myopic treatment of its own underlying science. The WM need for specificity is paramount. There is little or no motivation on the part of WM to treat patients regarding their "general" health needs. Sometimes giving supportive care results in some positive benefit. However, the fact that CM can vigorously treat any presentation in any stage of the presentation is a powerful statement of CM's general maturity as a treatment modality.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

Jason Robertson wrote: While accepting the fact that Chinese medicine, like all forms of healing, has limitations on what it can treat, I do believe that CM has not reached a limit of how it sees the world vis-a-vis modern biomedical understanding of disease. The crux of the difficulty is a lack of a common language through which biomedicine can appreciate and integrate what classical Chinese medicine is talking about.

 

It seems to me at this point that we may be forgetting that Chinese medicine can quite adequately respond to these biomedical terms and conditions through a careful focus on symptom patterns. We are not left with "only" treating symptom patterns but are instead blessed with being able to use differentiation of symptoms as a guide for treatment. Charles pointed out that the "lurking pathogen" concept may be best utilized as a principle for guiding treatment and thus as a theoretical framework for understanding changes in symptom presentation during an evolving course of treatment. Western medicine often considers these changing symptoms to be irrelevant to diagnosis.

 

The crux of the difference between CM and Western medicine in my mind is that the TCM approach is to consider the presence of symptoms as synonymous with the presence of a treatable condition while the biomedical approach is to consider a symptom as an indicator of a possible condition that may or may not actually be a mandate for treatment. Western medicine will then conduct tests based on possible causes of presenting symptoms and then proceed to diagnosis and treatment principle based on those tests. As asserted by Current Medical Diagnosis and Treatment, “Diagnostic tests are used to help establish or exclude the presence of disease in symptomatic patients.” If testing or imaging cannot determine a clear diagnosis, then treatment with modern biomedicine is problematic. Given the frequency of visits that do not result in clear-cut diagnoses, this leaves quite a few patients in biomedical clinics without recourse to treatment.

 

As practitioners of Chinese medicine, as long as we carfully differentiate symptoms and signs, we will be able to provide some relief for any condition that comes our way. This, to me, is the fundamental "take home message" of the Shang Han Lun.

 

Most respectfully,

 

JDR

[Guest guest]

As asserted by Current Medical Diagnosis and Treatment, “Diagnostic tests are used to help establish or exclude the presence of disease in symptomatic patients.” If testing or imaging cannot determine a clear diagnosis, then treatment with modern biomedicine is problematic.

>>>>Clearly the weakest aspect of WM and strongest of CM

Alon

[Guest guest]

> Jason wrote:

 

The crux of the difference between CM and Western medicine in my

mind is that the TCM approach is to consider the presence of

symptoms as synonymous with the presence of a treatable condition

while the biomedical approach is to consider a symptom as an

indicator of a possible condition that may or may not actually be a

mandate for treatment. >>>

 

 

Is this really the case? If symptoms are " synonymous with the

presence of a treatable condition, " what about problems whose root

are clearly biochemical in nature: cystic fibrosis (a misfolded

protein), cancer (uncontrolled cell proliferation and metastasis),

AIDS (uncontrolled viral replication and attack on the immune

system), etc.? While often helping to control symptoms, TCM can not

adequately discuss, nor accurately diagnose, nor successfully treat

these kind of problems.

 

In order to describe problems at the biochemical level, we need to

extend our models into the biochemical level in order to do this. Al

Stone's AcuBlog attempts to do this. It may be the best place to

start.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

I believe that I should have been slightly more specific and said that the "presence of symptoms and signs is synonymous with the presence of a treatable condition." We should not leave out signs that are observed by the practitioner. Signs could be at the macro or micro level.

 

We can all agree that neither nor any other healing modality has come up with an acceptable approach to conditions like cystic fibrosis, AIDS and cancer. Nevertheless, by dismissing the primacy of differential diagnosis, I fear that we may be leaving the purview of Chinese medicine. Yes, with the modification specified above, I do believe that in Chinese medicine symptoms and signs are synonymous with the presence of a treatable condition. As long as we are looking at physical phenomena through the prism of "Chinese science", it seems that we will always be attempting to look for patterns. This would be true if we went on to categorize what we saw based on zang-fu theory, meridian theory, wen bing theory or anything else. Careful differentiation of patterns, be they in the nature of patient complaints, pulses, body types or any other observable

entity is, to me, the "big idea" that Chinese science can offer to western science.

 

To reply more directly to the question about how Chinese medicine can address "biochemical" disease, I would propose that we once again look for patterns of symptoms and signs. Just as pulse diagnosis involves observation of a sign that the patient may not be aware of, so can the myriad of patterns at the cellular level be analysed. In fact, Dr. Wang Ju Yi here in Beijing has done just that by discussing the maintenance of a healthy interstitial fluid "bath" as being an aspect of Tai Yin Spleen function. If the Spleen, for example, is responsible for fluids on a macro level, then it might also be responsible for fluids at a micro level. This, to me, is the type of discussion that will faithfully bring the real strengths of Chinese medicine to the table as it integrates new diagnostic information provided by modern science.

 

respectfully,Jason Robertson, L.Ac. Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

home-86-010-8405-0531cell- 86-010-13520155800

 

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[Guest guest]

I totally agree, Jason.

 

I remember that 3 years ago Bob Flaws came to LA and emphasized time and

time again, not to diagnose using western terminology. It is

tantalizingly seductive and easy to say that we are treating a specific

Western medical disease, even a musculo-skelatal or pain syndrome but we

must not fall into that narrow trap. TCM differentiation is so unique,

specific, wholistic and successful when followed properly, that we are

doing our patients a tremendous disservice in not using our great

strength. I believe, with all due respect to Ayervedic physicians,

that it is far more developed than any other medical system in terms of

presenting diagnostic tools, differentiation patterns, and multiple

treatment disciplines to address and resolve the particular disharmony.

So different than eclectic naturopathy, which yes, follows the motto of

" first do no harm " , but then reverts back to " gently " allopathically

attacking symptoms.

 

That being said, we do not work in a vacuum, and in order to advance,

promote and disseminate our brilliant medicine WE MUST NOT BE VIEWED AS

ADVERSARIAL OR FRINGY BY THE WESTERN MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT! To resolve

that danger our daunting task must be to thoroughly be knowledgeable in

Western anatomy, physiology, pathology, differentiation and terminology

in general. We are the guests. We are the new green kids from the

strange land who must learn the host language in order to gain our due

respect. By telling Western physician, be they MDS ND, Chiropractors or

Osteopaths our findings in their terms, so many more deserving and

suffering patients will benefit from our medicine.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda Frischman

 

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