Guest guest Posted July 1, 2003 Report Share Posted July 1, 2003 ken, i don't see why personal practice in the sense of meditational practice, neccesarily needs to be a precursor for comprehension or contribution. When building upon the established, it seems that the ability to access information, gather clinical experience and properly discriminate the jewel from the dross is what is significant. I imagine many confucian physicians were perhaps much to busy with social responsibilites, intellectual bookish concerns and perhaps their medical practice to find time for such things. Qigong seems to have mostly developed mostly out of daoist or yangsheng physiological practices, which would not be a main concern for a confucian gentleman. With the establishment of neo-confucianism...gents certainly did begin too emphasis meditation more so and were allowed new avenues of thought(thus the four great masters). It seems as if much of early chinese medical history, revolved around the cult of the book and a books potency was many times a product of the imposed limitations placed on its production. Very serious sworn blood oaths preceded by much fasting and purification were neccesary for the transmission of a text from teacher to disciple. (TExt and Experience in Classical Sivin). As for traditional knowledge handed down outside of the literary tradition...is this not relegated to the folk aspect of the medicine. What do you mean when you say " wordless teaching " ? It seems as if whether or not your speaking of daoism or confucian tradition it revolves around the transmission of written knowledge and then the obvious personal integration of its teaching. At least in daoism...much of ones status is due too what particular texts one may have recieved. Please share your thoughts as my knowledge is limited in these manners. matt SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2003 Report Share Posted July 1, 2003 Matt, > i don't see why personal practice in the sense of > meditational practice, neccesarily needs to be a > precursor for comprehension or contribution. When > building upon the established, it seems that the > ability to access information, gather clinical > experience and properly discriminate the jewel from > the dross is what is significant. OK. Have you read Da Xue? There is a formula for knowledge , i.e., an outline of epistemological methodology, contained in that text which serves as something of a germ of Confucian thought and conduct. I've quoted it on the list several times and it appears in Who Can Ride the Dragon? in the chapter on the literary traditions of traditional Chinese medicine. You know the one I mean? It's the presentation of the hierarchy of focal points of knowledge that constitute the great learning. At the core is looking straight into the heart and acting on what you find...or as Ezra Pound phrased it in English, listening to the tones given off by the heart. This sounds pretty much like qi gong to me and thus we find such practices lying at the root of the Confucian prescription for knowledge. I imagine many > confucian physicians were perhaps much to busy with > social responsibilites, intellectual bookish concerns > and perhaps their medical practice to find time for > such things. Yes, but they didn't have CHA to distract them. Not to mention cars and television. Qigong seems to have mostly developed > mostly out of daoist or yangsheng physiological > practices, which would not be a main concern for a > confucian gentleman. Again, I place great stock in Lin Yutang's remarks in various places about the syncretic character of traditional Chinese interpretations and integrations of these various " schools " . With the establishment of > neo-confucianism...gents certainly did begin too > emphasis meditation more so and were allowed new > avenues of thought(thus the four great masters). The neo-confucian reiteration of such materials left a profound impression on all things traditionally Chinese. But I don't see it as a starting point for the inclusion of meditative or self-cultivation practices among Chinese intellectuals and artists generally. > It seems as if much of early chinese medical > history, revolved around the cult of the book and a > books potency was many times a product of the imposed > limitations placed on its production. Very serious > sworn blood oaths preceded by much fasting and > purification were neccesary for the transmission of a > text from teacher to disciple. (TExt and Experience in > Classical Sivin). > As for traditional knowledge handed down outside of > the literary tradition...is this not relegated to the > folk aspect of the medicine. I don't know what you mean by " relegated " . It seems to me, based largely on my own interactions with Chinese teachers, that the texts serve as blueprints for the construction of one's personal knowledge base. Thus even those who cleave closely to the literary transmissions also engage in a good deal of exegesis of the texts...some of which finds its way into the steady aggregation of commentaries, re-editions, etc. ... and interpretations of the meanings of the texts. > What do you mean when you say " wordless teaching " ? wu2 yan2 zhi1 jiao1 The phrase appears in the Dao De Jing where it says that the sage follows the wordless teaching. Obviously, it's hard to talk about the wordless teaching...as it is wordless. How could you read about the wordless teaching? How could you write about the wordless teaching? Do we need to be concerned about the wordless teaching? > It seems as if whether or not your speaking of > daoism or confucian tradition it revolves around the > transmission of written knowledge and then the obvious > personal integration of its teaching. At least in > daoism...much of ones status is due too what > particular texts one may have recieved. > Please share your thoughts as my knowledge is > limited in these manners. I'm afraid that my thoughts are little more than vague questions. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2003 Report Share Posted July 1, 2003 For me, similar to it is daily yoga practice, pranayama, natural foods diet, and hiking in nature to keep my qi balanced and strong. On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 01:35 PM, WMorris116 wrote: > Dear All > > I have to concur with Robert's notion of cultivation. If I see many > patients, read classics and take a moment to contemplate, elucidation > often occurs - but not always. My preferred method of cultivation is > performance and recording of ambient techno music...my practice and > studies deepen whenever I make time for musical endeavors. > > best regards, > > Will > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " < kenrose2008> wrote: > You ask the wrong question and then dismiss > it as unimportant because it can't be answered. just an observation. only your perception that its a dismissal as the rest of my post is a personal mental tug of war on this issue. the only conlcusion I draw is that forced indoctrination is wrong for me and would have been enough to cause me to choose another profession if I had been subjected to it. > > One of the things that I came to appreciate > during the years of research that went into > A Brief History of Qi is the prevalance of > what we now refer to as " qi gong " among practitioners > of virtually all of the traditional arts and > sciences in ancient China. yet many of the great masters who have been translated never mention it and as Robert has pointed out his personal experience on this matter was mixed, as was mine. the fact that qi gong is and was a common practice amongst those who practice traditional arts does not demonstrate the essential nature of this study. If we need to study qi gong in order to study TCM, then why didn't all the great masters need to. Or did they and just keep it under wraps. It is also my understanding that taoist pursuits were accepted more or less in different eras and sometimes elite confucian practitioners went underground to avoid stigma. Is this true? But on the > other hand, I > > probably take the influence of my own self cultivation practice on > my studies > > for granted as it was just something I always did. > > When you practice herbology, are you doing > something aimed at influencing the patient's > qi? every formula has one purpose: to restore free flow of qi. transforming phlegm or damp or supplementing vacuity are just different ways to achieve this goal. Is there a connection between your qi > and the patient's qi? as between all people who interact If so, does the state > and character of your qi influence the patient's > qi? as between all people who interact > > I think people look at TCM as cultish or > religious...to whatever extent they do... > because they are told to do so by those > whose opinions they follow, I completely disagree. I constantly hear TCM referred to as a cult or religion as spontaneous utterances by people. Most recently, at PCOM graduation, the mother inlaw of one of my best students made such an utterance, " wow, its like one has to join a religion to do this medicine " . the irony was there was no malice or derrogation in her tone. In fact, as a religious person herself, she was actually intrigued. Yet her intrigue is most others contempt. See Brian Crater's article on this topic in Acupuncture today. I don't agree with all his points, but he is pretty much on the money about the widespread public perception thing and that we largely bring it upon ourselves. there is no doubt the media feeds this image, but it is us gladly provide the images they are looking for. > > I'm confused by something you said about > OCOM, is it required or optional? required self cultivation -- option to do classroom indoctrination or independent study to satisfy the requirement > > just build it into the curricula. what do you mean. Any building it into the curriclulum other than the way OCOM does it results in forced indoctrination in particular styles of qi gong. And this would presuppose that one style fits all. But young men and old ladies need different styles. If a curriculum could accommodate that, then fine, but it would not be possible. Independent study is a viable alternative. And I do believe this should be required. But at OCOM, one might do qi gong, another landscape painting, another tea ceremonies. Arguably all forms of qi gong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 Matt, I am glad you thought this through further and corrected yourself. It is brave and honest at the same time. But don't worry, Chinese medicine and its history are like that. . you turn a corner, and the scenery changes completely. On Wednesday, July 2, 2003, at 11:04 AM, facteau8 wrote: > > the more i think about Unschuld/s argument(that the Nei-Jing is a > confucian creation), the more and more i'm finding myself agreeing > with his theory. The other night, i was looking at translations of > the earliest attested daoist hagiographies in Ge Hong's Immortal > Biographies. Nowhere in the very detailed index is there any > reference to acupuncture or related interest. Instead it is filled > with a form of herbal lore emphasizing pharmeceutic value. Tao Hong > Jing( editor of the Shen Nong) an eminent mao-shan daoist mentions > acupuncture and moxa in his works, but it is not emphasized. His > lineage were certainly herbalists. The Celestial Masters sect > largely sought healing in the forgiveness of sins, adoption of > precepts and only sometimes more empirical forms of medicine. > While medicine certainly preoccupied much of early daoism, it seems > as acupuncture wasn't widely accepted amongst daoism until later and > probably before the Tang. With thinkers like Wang Shu He and Zhang > Zong Jing in the han as obvious confucians, in posession of the Nei > Jing/Su WEn and practicing a correspondence style of medicine, it is > hard to establish strong daoist connections with the Su Wen. you just > dont find much correspondence theory in early daoist medicine, at > least to the level of detail inherent in the Su Wen. > i know i'm completely contradicting my previous post, but thats why > not thinking things through before hitting the print, is sure to > catch you a foot in the mouth. > matt > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 Z'ev, Matt, and everyone, > Matt, > I am glad you thought this through further and corrected yourself. > It is brave and honest at the same time. But don't worry, Chinese > medicine and its history are like that. . you turn a corner, and the > scenery changes completely. > > Well put, Z'ev. The subject is really far too vast to know either accurately or completely. All we can really do is develop and cultivate our inevitably changing view of the terrain. Another reason, by the way, that I place such a high value on Unschuld's work. It is really a stunning accomplishment to have collected and collated so much useful and reliable information on this subject. When the literature in English is finally reviewed and evaluated one day, I have no doubt that his work will rank at the top of the list in terms of the contribution made to the field, both academically and professionally. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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