Herpes.../ Pulse

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/5/2003 9:11:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

 

 

past wen bing theory does not apply to herpes, AIDS, etc. and no new application of that concept has yet proven therapeutically useful for these "latent virus" diseases. So if one can identify a reasonable etiology of CFIDS in any given patient as possibly being lurking heat, then it should be treated thusly. However, I think it is always risky to differentiate a disease rather than a patient. And speculation on this topic should be closely linked to an analysis of patient presentations, not an analysis of the disease factor. As Chip basically says, lurking heat is not a "thing" that can be dissected.

 

 

 

I agree with you. Part of the problem is the attempt to box the notion 'lurking pathogens' into a biomedical label. First, one must cultivate the abilities to diagnose lurking pathogens. This is inherently difficult jus because they are hidden. But - more importantly, lurking pathogens may be present in any patient and may or may not be the center of pathology for the patient - regardless of the WM diagnosis.

If one is to use sources such as the Wen Bing, Nei Jing and Mai Jing in developing a clinical approach to a modern day problem, the literature cannot merely be read literally. One must have the ability and desire to read between the lines gleaning wisdom and insight. This is the level of secrecy I was referring to in an earlier post that is related to the cultivation and skills of the practitioner. Reading Nei Jing after 20 years provides different insight than 5,10, 30 or 60 years of experience.

 

Jason, if it isn't clear to you, try reading and studying Shen/Hammer as a holographic anatomical model for location purposes. Don't use Wen Bing for pulse, rather use Wen Bing for clinical pictures and the most discourse about lurking pathogens. Use Chapter 11 of Book 1 of Mai Jing (Latent and Hidden Pulses), the Nei Jing and the Nan Jing for pulse study. The Su Wen is a mostly discussion of pulse diagnosis peppered throughout. No other diagnostic method receives as much attention in the Su Wen! Anyway - a heuristic approach to the passages on yin and yang may elucidate some realizations. The last paragraph of Su Wen Chapter Four (Science and Technology Press pp30) states "those who are keen in palpation of the pulse in diagnosis must investigate carefully to know whether the five viscera are agreeable with the energy and blood, the comprehensive condition of yin and yang, superficies and interior, male and female to the exquisite extent by deep consideration, and at the same time, be familiar with the principles and skillful in treating." This statement implies that lurking evil can be analyzed.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Dear Colleagues -

Based on the recent discourse, I feel compelled to quote Unschuld's Medical Ethics in Imperial China pp29 as he quotes a saying from Chang Chan (fourth century) in On The Absolute Sincerity of Great Physicians.

 

"Nowadays we have diseases which take a similar course with different patients, yet from the outside they appear to be different; and there are others, which take a different course with different persons, yet from the outside, they appear to be similar. For this reason, it will never suffice to examine exclusively with the eyes and ears the symptoms of excess and deficiency in the five granaries and six palaces as well as the flow or blocking of the blood and the pulses and the constructive and the protective influences. In the first place, one has to examine the symptoms of an illnesses which can be felt in the pulses to determine the specific illness. Only someone who gives his undivided mental attention can begin to elaborate on these symptoms. This undivided attention must be given even to the last details which are related to the irregularities in the depth and the marking of various kinds of pulsations, which conditions the variations in the acupuncture points, and which are responsible for the deviations in the thickness and strength of flesh and bones. Today, however, the prevailing effort is to grasp the most subtle details with the crudest and most superficial thought. This is truly dangerous!"

Best regards -

 

Will Morris

[Guest guest]

Ok... I see 2 problems - 1) this is the western approach , old theory

is always replaced by new theory... nothing is kept... this is not

the Chinese approach. 2) I assume you would agree that the new

theory of the atom is far superior to the old theory. but we can not

say that changing LP theory is superior to the old theory. The old

theory still works, and works fine, if you understand it and know

which situations to use it in. Of course it does not explain

everything. And maybe lurking viruses are best explained with 5-

element or zang-fu, why do we have to use LP theory to explain it?

just b/c of the name? The utility has not been shown … but this sure

doesn't stop many people to write about how this theory explains

things like herpes, ms aids CFIDS etc.

 

 

Just some thoughts...

how can a latent virus (i.e. herpes) be felt in the pulse before it

manifests? The immune system does not even know it is there? Also

99% of everyone has herpes (sI) by the age of 4. It lies dormant/

latent until it is provoked... Also doesn't the avg. person have over

1000 viruses that are inactive or latent at any given time? With

gene screening we can then say that we all have certain diseases that

are latent, waiting to erupt... I agree wb LP theory can't touch

this sort of stuff, but what can? I think we come back to the basic

holistic philosophy of the neijing, staying healthy and balanced;

this is what will prevent these latent diseases from emerging. This

is CM as a whole not just LP theory... Classical LP theory always

equated kidney vacuity with eruptions, therefore, maybe we should all

just dose the kidney tonics, long live the Kidney school…

 

-

 

ChineseMedicineDoc.com

[Guest guest]

, " " <@h...>

wrote:

Also doesn't the avg. person have over

> 1000 viruses that are inactive or latent at any given time? With

> gene screening we can then say that we all have certain diseases that

> are latent, waiting to erupt... I agree wb LP theory can't touch

> this sort of stuff, but what can? I think we come back to the basic

> holistic philosophy of the neijing, staying healthy and balanced;

> this is what will prevent these latent diseases from emerging.

 

I have certainly had my best success with herpes using zang fu treatment.

Same with hep C and HIV. However, that has not been my experience for

CFIDS. CFIDS, however, often is related to respiratory conditions in a

particular

way. If one takes a careful history of CFIDs patients, they often have been

treated countless times with antibiotics for minor URI complaints. This

overuse of cold bitter medicinals is described in Liu as being a classic way to

trap a pathogen in the interior. Naturopaths also recognize the antibiotic

iatrogenesis as most CFIDs patients are treated as having intestinal dysbiosis

and food allergies (which they do). Liu says if the pathogen is actually a

damp-heat one rather than a wind-heat one, then the pathogen can actually

become trapped in the middle jiao, especially if one mistakenly uses exterior

releasing herbs.

 

So CFIDs may actually be amenable, at least in some cases, to a wen bing

lurking heat analysis. And this is without any consideration of the epstein

barr virus (which I really don't think has anything important to do with

CFIDS). As I do agree completely with Jason (and Bob and Chip and Liu) that

past wen bing theory does not apply to herpes, AIDS, etc. and no new

application of that concept has yet proven therapeutically useful for these

" latent virus " diseases. So if one can identify a reasonable etiology of CFIDS

in

any given patient as possibly being lurking heat, then it should be treated

thusly. However, I think it is always risky to differentiate a disease rather

than a patient. And speculation on this topic should be closely linked to an

analysis of patient presentations, not an analysis of the disease factor. As

Chip

basically says, lurking heat is not a " thing " that can be dissected.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Just some thoughts... how can a latent virus (i.e. herpes) be felt

in the pulse before it manifests? >>>

 

There is a localized [genitals, skin] damp/heat pattern in the pulse

before other superficial symptoms show up. The pulse shows up in a

sector or part of the position associated with the location and type

of tissue (using Nan Jing 5-depths pulse method).

 

 

>>> The immune system does not even know it is there? >>>

 

The immune system knows it's there. Action is always going on at the

molecular scale, even when no symptoms show up. This is a blind spot

to CM theory.

 

 

>>> Also 99% of everyone has herpes (sI) by the age of 4. It lies

dormant/latent until it is provoked... Also doesn't the avg. person

have over 1000 viruses that are inactive or latent at any given

time? With gene screening we can then say that we all have certain

diseases that are latent, waiting to erupt... I agree wb LP theory

can't touch this sort of stuff, but what can? >>>

 

We can either expand on current CM theory to include the goings on

at the molecular scale, or simply admit our limitations. There's 'no

blame' [as the I Ching is fond of saying] in admitting our

limitations. In this latter case, we can propose an alternate

strategy of supporting the immune system and let the body figure out

what to do at the molecular level.

 

 

>>> I think we come back to the basic holistic philosophy of the

neijing, staying healthy and balanced; this is what will prevent

these latent diseases from emerging. >>>

 

Excellent point.

 

>>> Classical LP theory always equated kidney vacuity with

eruptions, therefore, maybe we should all just dose the kidney

tonics, long live the Kidney school… >>>

 

It sounds like they came to admit their limitations and just

supported the body, and let it do the work. Perhaps the hour of the

Kidney School has come 'round again.

 

Since the immune system is primarily associated with Spleen [white

blood cells, lymph nodes] and Lung [Wei qi] functions, and supported

by Kidney, we come back to the Li Dong Yuan notion that we need to

discuss complicated problems in terms of the dynamic interaction of

several organs. That the network interaction between organs are the

basic unit, not individual organs. I find it interesting how Li Dong

Yuan anticipated Complexity Theory.

 

No one should ever reduce a problem to only Spleen xu again!

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

As I do agree completely with Jason (and Bob and Chip and Liu) that

past wen bing theory does not apply to herpes, AIDS, etc. and no new

application of that concept has yet proven therapeutically useful

for these " latent virus " diseases. >>>

 

I don't disagree. But aren't we trying to expand CM theory to be

able to discuss these diseases intelligently? Undoubtedly we live

with virus and bacteria all the time---some are even essential to

our well-being---and the immune system keeps them all in check. As I

mentioned earlier, this activity on the molecular scale may be our

limitation. Perhaps our Chinese paradigm has to change to

incorporate the molecular scale.

 

 

>>> So if one can identify a reasonable etiology of CFIDS in

any given patient as possibly being lurking heat, then it should be

treated thusly. However, I think it is always risky to differentiate

a disease rather than a patient. >>>

 

I would disagree with this as a blanket statement because we do find

patterns in the pulses that are associated with a particular

disease; we even refer to these patterns as the " signature " of the

disease. If you have the pattern in the pulse you have or are

developing that particular problem---be it a cold or cancer. I

wouldn't disagree with Chip if you are looking at the patient and

the problem from just zang/fu patterns. But when you get into more

detailed CM models, these kinds of patterns emerge. Unfortunately,

they are not so easily suited to herbalism, whereas they are to

acupuncture; hence their lack of popularity in China and on this

forum.

 

In brief, from the Dong Han point of view, CFIDS has a complicated

origin. What we see typically is that the patient has developed

spleen xu which is followed by adrenal exhaustion (Kidney yin xu).

What helps lock this situation in is that they are often emotionally

driven but derive no real satisfaction from their efforts. Their

emotions and their body are at odds.

 

Consequently, their body is not able to regenerate reserves, for the

zang to store. By the time CFIDS is diagnosed, you can see softness

and depletion in most pulse positions at the organ depth. Their case

history is made even more complicated because they have become more

succeptible to opportunistic virus and bacteria. By that time,

stress has built up in their superficial muscles and nerves (the

second of the 5-depths) creating trigger points, pain, and localized

inflammation [lurking heat]; which may be mixed with other acquired

disorders.

 

The contrast between the upper half and the lower half [examining

from skin to bone depths] of their pulses is one of the most

important features. Doing TCM-style needling moves the qi around but

doesn't resolve the issue if they have too little to build on. But

there are needling strategies to focus the qi deeper and rebuild the

zang and chongmai [endocrine] qi. I find I have good success using

modifications of herbal formulas like Tuo Li Xiao Du Yin and Dang

Gui Yin Zi, to support immune function, blood, and marrow.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Dear Jim,

 

This exchange between yourself and Jason is a your more formal CM version of my own simplistic points just made. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

James Ramholz The immune system does not even know it is there? >>>The immune system knows it's there. Action is always going on at the molecular scale, even when no symptoms show up. This is a blind spot to CM theory.>>> Also 99% of everyone has herpes (sI) by the age of 4. It lies dormant/latent until it is provoked... Also doesn't the avg. person have over 1000 viruses that are inactive or latent at any given time? With gene screening we can then say that we all have certain diseases that are latent, waiting to erupt... I agree wb LP theory can't touch this sort of stuff, but what can? >>>We can either expand on current CM theory to include the goings on at the molecular scale, or simply admit our limitations. There's 'no blame' [as the I Ching is fond of saying] in admitting our limitations. In this latter case, we can propose an alternate strategy of supporting the immune system and let the body figure out what to do at the molecular level.>>> I think we come back to the basic holistic philosophy of the neijing, staying healthy and balanced; this is what will prevent these latent diseases from emerging. >>>Excellent point.

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz "

<jramholz> wrote:

 

> >>> The immune system does not even know it is there? >>>

>

> The immune system knows it's there. Action is always going on at

the

> molecular scale, even when no symptoms show up. This is a blind

spot

> to CM theory.

>

>

This must be debatable b/c I just saw a virology lecture last night

and it focused a lot on latent viruses. the lecturer specifically

said that herpes survival mechanism was that the immune system does

not know that it is there, that is how it survives dormant in the

cells, otherwise it would be attacked. this makes sense to me.

 

-

 

ChineseMEdicineDoc.com

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

The last paragraph of Su

> Wen Chapter Four (Science and Technology Press pp30) states " those

who are keen

> in palpation of the pulse in diagnosis must investigate carefully

to know

> whether the five viscera are agreeable with the energy and blood,

the

> comprehensive condition of yin and yang, superficies and interior,

male and female to the

> exquisite extent by deep consideration, and at the same time, be

familiar

> with the principles and skillful in treating. " This statement

implies that

> lurking evil can be analyzed.

>

> Will

 

Will,

 

I assume because of my lack of ability to read into things, I am

unclear how this gives you any clinical edge in treating lurking

pathogens by using the pulse. Or even some direction as you have

mentioned. And furthermore, as far as my knowledge goes the neijing

only speaks of lurking pathogens (briefly) from a seasonal

perspective (a very limited view, far from what you are suggesting),

and offers no real treatment strategies. I think this is similar to

something Giovanni said a few years back... HE said `I wouldn't be

surprised if I saw a quote that the neijing invented the internet...'

(something like that) – People love to quote the neijing like it

validates their theories. This (above) , IMO, validates nothing.

 

-

 

ChineseMedicineDoc.com

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> This must be debatable b/c I just saw a virology lecture last

night and it focused a lot on latent viruses. the lecturer

specifically said that herpes survival mechanism was that the immune

system does not know that it is there, that is how it survives

dormant in the cells, otherwise it would be attacked. this makes

sense to me. >>>

 

 

Jason:

 

This is probably a more accurate depiction of Herpes behavior. I was

thinking just of the general daily house cleaning the immune system

does.

 

So it brings up the question: are the virus and bacteria that CM

cannot account for or treat effectively more of this type and, like

AIDS, ones that attack and trick the immune system?

 

And if they are, how can we characterize this in CM?

 

If WB was developed to account for phenomena and describe treatment

strategies that the SHL couldn't describe well, how hard could it be

for us to come up with something new?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Will, and All,

 

 

Today,

> however, the prevailing effort is to grasp the most subtle details

with the crudest

> and most superficial thought. This is truly dangerous! "

>

> Best regards -

>

> Will Morris

 

Thanks for posting this quote. It raises

or rereaises more or less the same question

I posed the other day. Although the link

may not be immediately apparent.

 

Here's the question:

 

How do we develop, cultivate and refine

thought that moves it beyond the " crudest

and most superficial " level?

 

In my question about the necessity of

the cultivation of qi, the term qi can

be considered synonymous with the word

thought in the above quote. It seems

to me that unless one cultivates one's

thought and one's qi, one runs more than

simply the risk of falling precisely

into the pitfall descried above.

 

How can one grasp the subtle details,

i.e., the critical information, about

a patient without refining and cultivating

one's thinking and one's qi?

 

I'm putting together a workshop for

next year's Rothenburg congress in

Germany dealing with palpation skills

for acupuncturists and I will truly

appreciate hearing your and others'

thoughts on this. It seems to me

that when we touch the patient,

we are engaging our minds and our

qi in the act of grasping the most

subtle details of the case. That's

when all of our training and all

of our previous experience comes to

focus on the fundamental question in

any medical intervention.

 

What is wrong?

 

How can it be fixed?

 

So my question, again, just to be

as clear as possible and to expand

and restate it in light of the above

quote you provided:

 

How can we cultivate and refine thought

and qi to move it beyond the most

superficial level? Is/should/can

this be part of the training of

practitioners?

 

I know that common wisdom holds that

in school one only learns the basics,

what one needs to pass the test and

get one's license.

 

The real learning, this logic suggests,

begins after graduation and licensure.

 

But I have to wonder out loud, how many

who achieve the initial milestones actually

proceed along the path that leads from

the most superficial to the most profound.

 

And might it not be for the absence of

proper guidance in the early stages of

what is unarguably a lifetime process

that the later steps do not proceed toward

the fancied goal?

 

Just thinking out loud, really.

 

But I will sincerely appreciate learning

what others think about these matters.

 

Thanks again for a thought provoking post.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz "

<jramholz> wrote:

> , " " wrote:

> > This must be debatable b/c I just saw a virology lecture last

> night and it focused a lot on latent viruses. the lecturer

> specifically said that herpes survival mechanism was that the

immune

> system does not know that it is there, that is how it survives

> dormant in the cells, otherwise it would be attacked. this makes

> sense to me. >>>

>

>

> Jason:

>

> This is probably a more accurate depiction of Herpes behavior. I

was

> thinking just of the general daily house cleaning the immune system

> does.

>

> So it brings up the question: are the virus and bacteria that CM

> cannot account for or treat effectively more of this type and, like

> AIDS, ones that attack and trick the immune system?

>

> And if they are, how can we characterize this in CM?

>

> If WB was developed to account for phenomena and describe treatment

> strategies that the SHL couldn't describe well, how hard could it

be

> for us to come up with something new?

>

 

this is a good point, I personally don't have the tools to create a

new system (yet)... I am still trying to figure out the other stuff..

also, I really think a research institution is essential for this

type of molecular based medicine? How can we do this without serious

technology?

 

-jason

[Guest guest]

this is a good point, I personally don't have the tools to create a new system (yet)... I am still trying to figure out the other stuff.. also, I really think a research institution is essential for this type of molecular based medicine? How can we do this without serious technology?-jason

 

Jason, Jim, and All,

 

I sense you have the tools to deal with temperate viruses.

 

All temperate viruses are forever. Good health is a matter of managing the virus. Since they don't kill the host cell, the temperate virus can not normally be "seen" by the immune system. Technically T-cytotoxic cells can indeed "see" virally infected cells, but they need to come into contact. The herpes simplex virus lives in the trigeminal nerve high up near the brain and so can't be "seen" in its home habitat.

10 to 15 years after discovering antibodies to HIV, some people have still not shown symptoms of AIDS. In 1989 papers came out showing that long term survivors have a strong T-cytotoxic cell response. The first manifestation to HIV is sero-conversion which can take 6 to 12 months because the HIV virus is so dilute in the blood. The virus does trick the immune system by replicating it's proteins with random errors called negative frameshift mutations. There can be as many as 50 strains of HIV in one patient and as many as 400 strains overall. Thus, the immune system would have to develop as many as 50 immune responses to each new strain. Pretty tough. The problem with each response is that it takes 6 to 12 months for each immune response to take place. Thus, the HIV patient gets hit with what amounts to a new disease again and again and again. There isn't enough lifetime to sero-convert 50 times. Thus, humoral immunity can't work. The patient declines due to immuno-deficiency. That's why long term survivors have the high T-cytotoxic cells. That's how you beat this disease. What's cool is that this is how you would beat any temperate viral disease and also how you would beat cancer. It's all based on T-cytotoxic cells.

 

The usual fate of HIV viruses is to invade the T-helper cell and stop all immune responses both B cell maturation and T-cytotoxic cell maturation. I've seen what appear to be successful HIV/AIDS formulas. To be acceptable to WM, it would need to be shown to activate T-cytotoxic cells or some such thing. Also MDs may not be amenable to tailoring formulas to fit different CM clinical presentations. Like poor immune systems, MDs can "see" the CM axes of diagnosis. So publishing in CM journals after some serious epidemiology would be needed to establish credibility.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

One last rant on the molecularity (this is not a word) of CM.

 

I rant to my students on this at least once per week. Normal life is one cell. Only in the last portion of the last billion years have life forms developed in a multicellular way. This is highly abnormal with regard to life and highly unstable. We are organisms made up of billions of cells, wherein one cell per life form is the norm. What to do? Intense programing. Zheng Qi. This is why I so love Fernando Bernal's response to Ken Rose's question of what's Zheng Qi versus Xie Qi. Fernando, your answer has already been required reading for over 100 students.

 

I digress. If normal life systems are based on one cell, it's quite a leap of programming not only to develop tissues, but also organs and organ systems and ultimately the billion-celled ecosystem called the organism. Then the leap to detailed moment by moment communication on every level throughout the various organ systems down to cellular organelles is quite profound. As Fernando would say, "Zheng Qi is the natural and orderly dissemination of information between body systems. Interpretation of such information and the appropriate response (one that maintains or leads to homeostasis) is Zhen Qi." (Thanks again, Fernando.) CM cultivations, diagnosis and treatment are dedicated to cultivating, "seeing" and maintaining Zheng Qi.

 

Thus, my point here. Any adjustment to Zheng Qi is an adjustment to the molecular and cellular. That's the in vivo language of body. It's completely unavoidable. The beauty of all this is that CM is in a much better position from my view to "ingest" our knowledge of all things molecular and cellular and make sense of it. I can't quite yet envision how this would look, but it would be something like CM pulse technique and tongue diagnosis being chapters in a normal physiology course. Graduate students would have to extend CM diagnostic techniques to animal models. Molecular biology research would proceed. That is, people who have both CM and Western science training would be the faculty. Not too far fetched since such people exist. For my money, CM could already guide molecular biology.

 

Okay, back to Earth. It's important to note that normal CM cultivation, diagnosis and treatment are already molecular. That's just how the billions of cells speak to each other utilizing the assembly languages and higher languages of Zheng Qi. Zheng Qi is neuroendocrine molecules, electromagnetic forces acting on membranes, osmotic forces, diffusion gradients, etc. It's perhaps a bit frightening to note that there is very little structure in the human body that is not essentially fluid. It is the billion-fold acrobatics of molecules and Zheng Qi forces that prevent us from being anything other than puddles.

 

With optimism,

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

, " Emmanuel Segmen " wrote:

> The usual fate of HIV viruses is to invade the T-helper cell and

stop all immune responses both B cell maturation and T-cytotoxic

cell maturation. I've seen what appear to be successful HIV/AIDS

formulas. To be acceptable to WM, it would need to be shown to

activate T-cytotoxic cells or some such thing. >>>

 

 

Emanuel:

 

Can you expand on " successful HIV/AIDS formulas " ---what are they and

how do they work? Perhaps this is the missing link in the LP thread.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

 

Emanuel:Can you expand on "successful HIV/AIDS formulas"---what are they and how do they work? Perhaps this is the missing link in the LP thread.Jim Ramholz

 

Jim,

 

The HIV/AIDS formula is in some dusty file at work. I can instead provide the ingredients of a very successful hepatitis C formula that has been shown to reduce viral load to zero in most patients. Same deal with regard to a temperate virus, so maybe this will serve to exemplify for LP purposes. I'm not at liberty to discuss specific dosaging of ingredients ... only what the ingredients are. Hepatitis C may become a more widespread disease than HIV if it is not already. I've heard estimates that 1/3 of the CA prison population are hepatitis C positive. I can only quote here Dr. Ping Qi Kang as it's his presentation. I'm actually quoting his Nei-Jingese (my translation of his Chinese thoughts) after having questioned him on the topic dozens of times. Please also note that I am way out of my depth as a Western scientist discussing CM (so don't throw sharp objects at me here). I just happen to be profoundly fascinated by CM treatment of any temperate virus, but don't expect an indepth explanation of the CM involved.

 

Dr. Kang notes that hepatitis C belongs to the following CM conditions: damp toxins, costal pain, deficiency-symptom-complex, and stasis of the liver (Zhen-Jia, Ji-Ju). These pathologies occur because damp toxins attack the liver and can bring about deficiency of vital energy. This illness presents as a shift from excess to deficiency. Liver stasis and Spleen deficiencey can bring about deficiencies of Liver, Kidney and Blood in the Collateral Channels. Most hepatitis C patients show deficiency mixed with excess. So note that the specific goals of the following formula is to stimulate the immune system to act directly on the infected cells (T-cytotoxic cell stimulation) and also to stimulate the liver to resist stress and to more effectively repair itself without scarring.

 

Bai Hua She She Cao

Yin Chen

Huang Qin

Dan Shen

Chi Shao

Zi Cao

Yu Jin

Chai Hu

Bai Zhu

Fu Ling

Huang Qi

Sha Shen (Bei) - Glehnia l.

Zao Xiu

Jiao Gu Lan

 

Sorry about the lack of specific dosaging.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

but it would be something like CM pulse technique and tongue diagnosis being chapters in a normal physiology course

>>>>I think it will be a long time before you see a 2 by 2 table for pulse or tongue diagnosis. Before sensitivity, specificity, and likeligood ratios for these test are going to show up in WM texts not in our life.

Alon

[Guest guest]

.. Also MDs may not be amenable to tailoring formulas to fit different CM clinical presentations. Like poor immune systems,

>>>But lets not forget that so far its WM that has done the most in the management and life extension of AIDs patients. So lets not divorce from reality

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " Emmanuel Segmen " <

susegmen@i...> wrote:

 

>

> Bai Hua She She Cao

> Yin Chen

> Huang Qin

> Dan Shen

> Chi Shao

> Zi Cao

> Yu Jin

> Chai Hu

> Bai Zhu

> Fu Ling

> Huang Qi

> Sha Shen (Bei) - Glehnia l.

> Zao Xiu

> Jiao Gu Lan

 

Emmanuel,

 

thanks. this formula appears to treat a zang fu disorder rather than a wen

bing disease. While it does address some blood level heat, there is no effort

to

exteriorize the pathogen, IMO.

 

[Guest guest]

One certain way of doing this is seeing the practice of Chinese

medicine as a tao, a pathway, which imparts wisdom. As one discerns,

diagnoses, treats and interacts with patients, one uses the actual

practice of Chinese medicine to grow as a human being and, in turn,

impart the gained wisdom and compassion back to one's patients,

students, and family members.

 

Another branch of this tao is study. The interaction of one's study of

Chinese medical literature with clinical practice broadens one's

thinking and technique. As one studies the principles of yin-yang and

five phases in the classical literature and applies them to medicine,

one's thinking is refined and deepened.

 

Finally, living a lifestyle as much as possible in harmony with nature

and its seasons, eating in harmony with one's environment, observing

and meditating on time in the changes and transmutations of health and

disease states teaches one about life in the deepest sense.

 

 

On Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 04:28 PM, kenrose2008 wrote:

 

> How can one grasp the subtle details,

> i.e., the critical information, about

> a patient without refining and cultivating

> one's thinking and one's qi?

 

How can we cultivate and refine thought

and qi to move it beyond the most

superficial level? Is/should/can

this be part of the training of

practitioners?

[Guest guest]

Werner Lowenstein, a molecular biologist and professor of physiology

writes in his book, " The Touchstone of Life " :

 

" Information comes from physics, but the roots are in biology. It

contributes nothing to the material body, but communicates its program

of development. It does not become part of the body, but the form is

imparted by it to the material by means of the changes it effects.

Information connotes a cosmic principle of organization and order, (and

produces) the rules that govern incodings in networks from steroid

hormone encryption to the mighty genetic code. Living beings extract

information from their surrounds, store it in a stable molecular form,

and eventually parcel it out for their creative endeavors. "

 

I see this as an expression of zheng qi on the frontiers of molecular

biology. I thought it would be an interesting condiment to add to your

discussion from your post.

 

 

 

 

On Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 10:54 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

> I digress.  If normal life systems are based on one cell, it's quite a

> leap of programming not only to develop tissues, but also organs and

> organ systems and ultimately the billion-celled ecosystem called the

> organism.  Then the leap to detailed moment by moment communication on

> every level throughout the various organ systems down to cellular

> organelles is quite profound.  As Fernando would say, " Zheng Qi is the

> natural and orderly dissemination of information between body

> systems.  Interpretation of such information and the appropriate

> response (one that maintains or leads to homeostasis) is Zhen Qi. "  

> (Thanks again, Fernando.)  CM cultivations, diagnosis and treatment

> are dedicated to cultivating, " seeing " and maintaining Zheng Qi. 

>  

> Thus, my point here.  Any adjustment to Zheng Qi is an adjustment to

> the molecular and cellular.  That's the in vivo language of body. 

> It's completely unavoidable.  The beauty of all this is that CM is in

> a much better position from my view to " ingest " our knowledge of all

> things molecular and cellular and make sense of it.

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Werner Lowenstein, a molecular biologist and professor of

physiology writes in his book, " The Touchstone of Life " .... I

thought it would be an interesting condiment to add to your

discussion from your post. >>>

 

 

Z'ev:

 

It's quite exciting to see CM and Western science parallel each

other. As I wrote earlier and posted on Al Stone's Weblog a while

back, Lowenstein also presents, by analogy, one of the most

important rationalizations about why Chinese medicine works. The

molecular symmetry of the regular tetrahedron which makes organic

life possible is also the same as the archetypal figure of 5-

Elements and shows us how stems and branches combine to transfer

information.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

 

 

I can neither confirm nor deny. It's Dr. Kang's starting point.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

 

Sunday, July 06, 2003 9:06 AM

Re: Herpes.../ Pulse

, "Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmen@i...> wrote:> > Bai Hua She She Cao> Yin Chen> Huang Qin> Dan Shen> Chi Shao> Zi Cao> Yu Jin> Chai Hu > Bai Zhu> Fu Ling > Huang Qi> Sha Shen (Bei) - Glehnia l. > Zao Xiu> Jiao Gu LanEmmanuel,thanks. this formula appears to treat a zang fu disorder rather than a wen bing disease. While it does address some blood level heat, there is no effort to exteriorize the pathogen, IMO. ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Z'ev.

 

You, too, are one who sees the exquisite poetry of life amidst the scholarship and pragmatic endeavors of life.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

 

Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:48 PM

Re: Re: Herpes.../ Pulse

Werner Lowenstein, a molecular biologist and professor of physiology writes in his book, "The Touchstone of Life":"Information comes from physics, but the roots are in biology. It contributes nothing to the material body, but communicates its program of development. It does not become part of the body, but the form is imparted by it to the material by means of the changes it effects. Information connotes a cosmic principle of organization and order, (and produces) the rules that govern incodings in networks from steroid hormone encryption to the mighty genetic code. Living beings extract information from their surrounds, store it in a stable molecular form, and eventually parcel it out for their creative endeavors."I see this as an expression of zheng qi on the frontiers of molecular biology. I thought it would be an interesting condiment to add to your discussion from your post.On Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 10:54 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

I digress. If normal life systems are based on one cell, it's quite a leap of programming not only to develop tissues, but also organs and organ systems and ultimately the billion-celled ecosystem called the organism. Then the leap to detailed moment by moment communication on every level throughout the various organ systems down to cellular organelles is quite profound. As Fernando would say, "Zheng Qi is the natural and orderly dissemination of information between body systems. Interpretation of such information and the appropriate response (one that maintains or leads to homeostasis) is Zhen Qi." (Thanks again, Fernando.) CM cultivations, diagnosis and treatment are dedicated to cultivating, "seeing" and maintaining Zheng Qi. Thus, my point here. Any adjustment to Zheng Qi is an adjustment to the molecular and cellular. That's the in vivo language of body. It's completely unavoidable. The beauty of all this is that CM is in a much better position from my view to "ingest" our knowledge of all things molecular and cellular and make sense of it.

[Guest guest]

Will

Do you have a full copy of King, Cobin, Walsh and Ryan (2002) study of reliable measurement of radial pulse characteristics?

Alon