Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 In a message dated 7/6/2003 8:59:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: .. I think it may be misleading for a student to think that enzymes correct spleen qi vacuity, when according to TCM theory a substance that disperse and clears heat may actually harm spleen qi in the long run. I have heard the question raised whether using enzymes will lead your body to shut down its natural production. I really have no idea. Certainly one's enzyme production runs on feedback loops. so if high levels of enzymes circulate, the body would decrease its natural production at that moment. I have not seen evidence that long term use leads to lower (or higher) enzyme production even when not taking the supplements. - I have observed damage by long-term use of enzymes by patients. They are at best a short-term strategy in my practice. I agree with your categorization in the relieve food stagnation section. They do not boost spleen qi in my experience, however, they do give the pancreas a break when used short term and the rest can have a net strengthening effect. Mu Gua seems to have some enzymatic action, and in the market place it is a form of papaya. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 , wrote: Just to suggest that they are probably not spleen qi tonics in any way. thus, looking at contraindications for herbs of a similar nature, one sees that they can be used long term as part of plan that includes rectification of root patterns. >>> : Wouldn't spleen or pancreatic enzymes be considered pi yin, since they are physical material of and produced by those organs? If you're looking at their dispersing action, then wouldn't they be considered the metal of earth. And taking them as supplements to benefit the spleen a tonic or have a tonic effect? Just wondering. Jim Ramholz > > I have heard the question raised whether using enzymes will lead your body > to shut down its natural production. I really have no idea. Certainly > one's enzyme production runs on feedback loops. so if high levels of > enzymes circulate, the body would decrease its natural production at that > moment. I have not seen evidence that long term use leads to lower (or > higher) enzyme production even when not taking the supplements. However > that is true for thyroid hormone, for which production is permanently > affected by long term use of chemically isolated thyroid hormone. This > analogy may be closer than one thinks. Especially since pancreatic > enzymes are produced by another gland itself. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 , " James Ramholz " <jramholz> wrote: : > > Wouldn't spleen or pancreatic enzymes be considered pi yin, since > they are physical material of and produced by those organs? well, the plant enzymes are not produced by those organs, but even so I would not care. all medicinals are physical substances as are their chemical constiutuents. that does not make them inherently yin building. leeches are purely dispersing in nature as are many insects. what matters to me is functions and indications, flavors and chemical structures. None of this adds up to a tonic to me. the rest is kind of above my head. If > you're looking at their dispersing action, then wouldn't they be > considered the metal of earth. I have no idea. > > And taking them as supplements to benefit the spleen a tonic or have > a tonic effect? I have no idea. > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > voice: > > fax: > > > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > > minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 > > I do not think these substances conform to the normal parameters of a > substance that supplements vacuity. first, they are not sweet. They are > indicated for pain, redness, swelling and inflammation when taken between > meals, thus heat and stagnation. correct: they are more analogous to using digestive bitters than a sp. Tonic. And we know that the bitter flavor disperses XS from the stomach. While these herbs could be used for heat > in deficiency patients, I see no indication that they actually address the > deficiency factor itself. > > The enzymatic action of these supplements is certainly more akin to mai ya > and shen qu than how huang qi and renshen work. Strengthening the Sp and tonifying the qi are different: a language difference and a functional difference: ren shen is used differently than bai zhu. Bai zhu could be said to be more enzymatic. And bai zhu is bitter. But, bitters do have a restorative effect. Bitters stimulate the secretion of stomach aid and antacid. And drying dampness allows the spleen to function efficiently. And that in turn allows the spleen to transform and transport food and fluids into qi and blood. A magical alchemical happening. But I agree, it would be better to also use tonics: that's the simple beauty of a formula like xiang sha liu jun zi tang, as opposed to, say, bao he wan. The former strengthens and regulates the qi. The latter only regulates and moves. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 > > correct: they are more analogous to using digestive bitters than a sp. > Tonic. And we know that the bitter flavor disperses XS from the stomach. > I thought a about a year a ago we had this discussion about small amount of bitters, producing a tonic effect on the sp/st... many chinese atleast view this type of dosing in a tonic way... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 , <@i...> > I have heard the question raised whether using enzymes will lead your body > to shut down its natural production. I really have no idea. I have heard this, but I have also heard that excess (digestive) enzymes not used are re-absorbed and can be used at a later time... If this is true there is somesort of tonic action going on... But who knows. - ChineseMedicineDoc.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 > > > I thought a about a year a ago we had this discussion about small > amount of bitters, producing a tonic effect on the sp/st... many > chinese atleast view this type of dosing in a tonic way... I see that later in your post you mention this idea, so ignore this post , sorry -JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 , wrote: Just to suggest that they are probably not spleen qi tonics in any way. , Jim Ramholz wrote: And taking them as supplements to benefit the spleen a tonic or have a tonic effect? My guess: they're not spleen qi tonics, but akin to spleen qi itself. Enzymes take over some middle jiao tasks and they function the way spleen qi is supposed to function. In this context, using enzymes is like bringing in a new sous-chef to back up the head chef. The new guy takes over some of the work, but doesn't necessarily enhance the chef's talent or abilities. Maybe that bit of extra help makes it possible for the chef to improve - an indirect tonic effect - or maybe it gives him the excuse to slack off - forever dependent on his kitchen helper. --Laurie Burton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 , " " <@h...> wrote: > I have heard this, but I have also heard that excess (digestive) > enzymes not used are re-absorbed and can be used at a later time... I do not see how enzymes could be stored. they are too volatile. I may be wrong, but I doubt any mainstream physiologist would accept this premise. Perhaps Emmanuel has a thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 , " " wrote: > well, the plant enzymes are not produced by those organs, but even so I would not care. >>> : I know that plant enzymes aren't produced by those organs. I was making an analogy as to how to possibly catagorize them in CM theory. If we consider that spleen yin is the physical material of the organ itself and the materials produced by the organ (enzymes, glucogon, insulin); then the spleen yang is the functional aspect (how fast or slow it responds to a stimulus). In this way we can differentiate between hypoglycemia (problem of spleen yang) where blood sugar regulation is irregular; and diabetes (problem of spleen yin) where there are an insufficient amounts of beta cells. This catagorization is consistant when used with the ideas of " Front " and " Back " (as described in a Nan Jing commentary) in pulse diagnosis. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 Similar ideas are mentioned in Jeremy Ross' new book, 'Western Herbs and '. He mentions bitter medicinals as beneficial to the spleen. However, I do think dosage is crucial with such treatment, because bitters quickly become draining and have the opposite effect. On Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 09:45 AM, Cara Frank wrote: > > > But, bitters do have a restorative effect. Bitters stimulate the > secretion > of stomach aid and antacid. And drying dampness allows the spleen to > function efficiently. And that in turn allows the spleen to transform > and > transport food and fluids into qi and blood. A magical alchemical > happening. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 The closest medicinal I think we have to compare with is shen qu/massa fermentata, or sourdough with four other medicinals (xing ren, cang er zi, qing hao, chi xiao dou). The fermentation produces enzymes that aid digestion. Shen qu is considered to be sweet, warm and acrid (although there are variations with more cold bitter medicinals such as zhi zi). Now, shen qu is listed as a food stagnation-relieving medicinal. If combined with spleen supplementing medicinals, it can have a more supplementing effect, but if used alone, it will be more dispersing. Therefore, as with bitter medicinals, it may benefit digestion, but too large a dosage may actually weaken the spleen by causing too much dispersion. So I think it is an oversimplification by the student to say that digestive enzymes are 'instant spleen qi'. On Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 08:58 AM, wrote: > The other day I saw a student popping some pills with her meal. she > smiled and said its instant spleen qi. It was actually digestive > enzymes. I am a big proponent of digestive enzymes. They are a > convenient safe, naturally derived way to achieve certain desirable > effects. I use various plant based enzyme products, which are > naturally fermented products, quite analogous in a crude way to shen > qu. I also use pancreatic enzymes, which are often derived from > animals. Again, not a stretch for TCM. Research on pancreatic > enzymes is pretty impressive with regard to its effects on digestion > when taken with food and inflammation when taken between meals. Its > powerful effects on inflammation make it useful for many conditions, > including autoimmunity and IBS. However, as you might suspect, it is > essential to me that such substances be given careful consideration in > terms of TCM if they are be used long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > > But, bitters do have a restorative effect. Bitters stimulate the secretion > of stomach aid and antacid. And drying dampness allows the spleen to > function efficiently. And that in turn allows the spleen to transform and > transport food and fluids into qi and blood. A magical alchemical happening. > > But I agree, it would be better to also use tonics: that's the simple beauty > of a formula like xiang sha liu jun zi tang, as opposed to, say, bao he wan. > The former strengthens and regulates the qi. The latter only regulates and > moves. But bitters must be used in low does and drying damp only is effective as a sole strategy if the spleen is not very weak. But for the chronic autoimmune diseases that people use longterm enzymes for, the doses are high and the therapy unbalanced. Having said that, I am a big fan of clearing excess. I think tonics are widely abused. Many people respond well to enzymes when TCM has failed. It is often the case that they needed a mixed supplementing draining therapy. the acu tonficed them and they felt like crap. But when the naturopath purged them and put them on enzymes, they felt great. Speaking herbally only, in the short term, I find people always feel better if excess is cleared even if tonics are ignored. and they always feel worse if they are tonficied prematurely. tonification seems to worsen excess symptoms much quicker than clearing worsens vacuity symptoms. I think enzymes can be part of well crafted treatment plan if used with careful thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2003 Report Share Posted July 8, 2003 You're right they don't get reabsorbed. Bile salts are reabsorbed and returned to the liver ("for further consideration" ... my favorite expression.) Everything absorbed by the intestines or even the stomach into the bloodstream goes to the liver. Consider that the following veins all eventually empty into the liver: superior mesenteric, inferior mesenteric, splenic, left and right gastric and portal. If you reabsorb activated enzymes, they will digest the liver. There's no mucous layer protecting the "cords of Bilroth" which are the interior structure of the liver. Thus the enzymes act on the food chyme in the intestines. The intestinal mucosa is highly specific for amino acids, dipeptides, vitamins, minerals, glucose and so on. Essential and many non-essential nutrients are absorbed in both active and facilitated ways. Recall also that enzymes (according to the official NFL rules) are proteins which means they are at least 1,000 amino acids long. This polypeptide thread bends and folds in unique ways to form active sites. The point is that you can't have facilitated diffusion of entire proteins ... with some exceptions that I won't bore you with having to do with babies. Enzymes are always "unused". That is, they are catalysts that facilitate chemical reactions but do not themselves participate in the reaction. Thus, enzymes are always unaffected and unused as nutrients themselves. They go right out into the sewer with the undigested chyme. Note further (is this getting boring?) that the diffusion gradient becomes more and more intense as you move distally through the small intestine. Thus, what you eat and digest is going to go into the blood if it is a functional nutrient. Generally what you put into your mouth, you have committed to putting into your blood ... both fluid and solid. Pretty arresting thought. Gives one pause before making the commitment. In gratitude for your reading patience, Emmanuel Segmen - Sunday, July 06, 2003 10:58 AM Re: instant spleen qi , "" <@h...> wrote:> I have heard this, but I have also heard that excess (digestive) > enzymes not used are re-absorbed and can be used at a later time...I do not see how enzymes could be stored. they are too volatile. I may be wrong, but I doubt any mainstream physiologist would accept this premise. Perhaps Emmanuel has a thought?Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2003 Report Share Posted July 8, 2003 Enzymes are always " unused " . That is, they are catalysts that facilitate chemical reactions but do not themselves participate in the reaction. Thus, enzymes are always unaffected and unused as nutrients themselves. They go right out into the sewer with the undigested chyme. > > Note further (is this getting boring?) that the diffusion gradient becomes more and more intense as you move distally through the small intestine. Thus, what you eat and digest is going to go into the blood if it is a functional nutrient. Generally what you put into your mouth, you have committed to putting into your blood ... both fluid and solid. Pretty arresting thought. Gives one pause before making the commitment. > Emmanuel, & others, First, I admit to not knowing much about the intricacies of western digestion, so with that preface maybe you could entertain a few questions... 1) I am unclear about the above, " right out into the sewer " . IF this is so, how does the feedback mechanism work for digestive enzymes? I.e. If they don't stick around, nor get reabsorbed in anyway, how does our body know if we have too much or not enough? 2) I thought microvilla had enzymes incorporated into there plasma membranes, and if after they perform their job, why would they be flushed out... I thought they stay intact, not really changing, since they are just catalysts (speeding up a reaction, or just allowing a barrier of potential to be crossed) - if this is true, they would be able to be used again. So they technically would not be reabsorbed, but able to be reused. Obviously pancreatic enzymes injected into the S.I. have a different situation, can someone explain the difference… But why wouldn't these pancreatic enzymes get reabsorbed by the S.I. (if everything else does?) Here is a quote that references a major A & P textbook: Digestive enzymes, like any catalyst, are reused/recycled multiple times. Thus, any supposed " savings " (of energy, or of a proposed " life force " ) in the production of digestive enzymes to make up for food enzymes lost to cooking (assuming the latter are of much use to digestion in the first place) would be very small and mostly illusory given that enzymes are reused during digestion anyway. (Note: Tortora and Anagostakos [1981, pp. 46-47] discusses reuse of enzymes.) It seems tortora thinks enzymes get reused.. can someone comment on this? 3) also isn't the cell's msg. for what enzymes to be produced dependent on what it comes into contact with? - ChineseMedicineDoc.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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