AZT - tears of rage

[Guest guest]

ES wrote: Also MDs may not be amenable to tailoring formulas to fit different CM clinical presentations. Like poor immune systems,

>>>But lets not forget that so far its WM that has done the most in the management and life extension of AIDs patients. So lets not divorce from reality

Alon

 

Hi Alon,

 

I forgot your sensitivities on behalf of allopathic medicine. My apologies. Reality is that AIDS patients went to SF General Hospital ... so you're right about WM patient management. We could talk for a long time and quite politically about life extension. I know in minute detail the Western scientific research, medical history, economic history and political history of AZT. You don't want to hear my rant on that one, and the damage it's done. There are specific reasons the FDA originally rejected it as a chemotheraputic drug. It kills people. Also I'm a long time San Franciscan. I got to see it up front and very personally at SF General where I worked every week from 1981 to spring 1985. Many of those people were my friends. I also got to see what happened at ACTCM when some AIDS patients came off AZT. I'm not at all divorced from reality regarding AIDS as it's also an area where I studied it's molecular biology as part of a lab that considered various approaches to creating a vaccine. I worked in labs with Frank Bayliss, John Stubbs and Michael Goldman. Clearly you've touched a nerve. I'll leave it here. For the benefit of the list, I won't respond any further on this specific point. Thank God David Ho got us past AZT. You'll get nothing but tears of rage from me on this point. One more point for the record ... for Reality, if you will. If I had a choice between protease inhibitors and going to see any number of CM practitioners of merit, I'd pick CM without looking back. Perhaps your choice would be different. To each his own.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

[Guest guest]

I forgot your sensitivities on behalf of allopathic medicine

 

>>>The only thing i am sensitive about is feel good empty talk. I have 0 sensitivity to allopathic or CM. I just like to see more evidence than NICE feel good talk. And sorry Dr Kang told me just does not do it.

 

I also got to see what happened at ACTCM when some AIDS patients came off AZT.

>>>>I think at this point we a kind of beyond AZT.

 

for Reality, if you will. If I had a choice between protease inhibitors and going to see any number of CM practitioners of merit,

>>>>>While i am not sure what i would do if i had HIV, i do not see any evidence that CM has the current success of WM. as i live in the bay area as you are, I see and know of many AIDs patients and CM dr that treat them.

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <

alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

>

> for Reality, if you will. If I had a choice between protease inhibitors and

going to see any number of CM practitioners of merit,

> >>>>>While i am not sure what i would do if i had HIV, i do not see any

evidence that CM has the current success of WM. as i live in the bay area as

you are, I see and know of many AIDs patients and CM dr that treat them.

> Alon

 

I worked at the ITM immune enhancement project in portland in the late

eighties and early nineties. We tracked all of our patients with lab tests and

valid quality of life scores (karnofsky's). At the time, the only alternative

was

AZT. Unfortunately, we did not prolong the lives of our patients. We did

decrease the incidence and severity of opportunistic infections. Apparently we

did not slow the progression of the virus at all and inevitably the patients

succumbed. However, their quality of life was much higher than those on AZT.

At this time, we had 150 patients. I was a strong proponent at the time of the

theory that HIV did not cause AIDS. Yet neither zang fu, wen bing or SHL

treatment worked. After the intro of the triple cocktail, the patient load

dropped to about 20 and has stayed there ever since. Quality of life on the

triple cocktail is much hoigher than we ever achieved at ITM and mortality

has dropped through the basement.

 

Subhuti has no qualms about this. He predicted back in the early nineties that

it would be western med that would save the day. While we keep hearing that

the other shoe is about to drop on the triple cocktail, the fact is that most of

the people on it would oong be dead if not for it. those who stubbornly clung

to TCM alone are largely gone. those who have survived longterm w/o drugs

are probably infected with a weak strain of the virus and have been

scrupulous about getting reinfected in the past 15 years. They are indeed

better off w/o drugs. But the majority have rapidly mutating and multiple

strains of virus. Without the triple cocktail they would be gone. I think the

best approach is one I still consider to be TCM. the integration of east and

west with attention to the east.

 

The triple cocktail has side effects that seem to be of the damp or phlegm

variety. High cholesterol and fat deposits. My hunch would be that these are

cooling substances that weaken yang. One promising study that supports this

hypothesis is up at bastyr where ND's have found that high dose garlic helps

offset the side effects. Garlic of ocurse is warm and would be good for cold

phlegm if this is the case. However it makes me wonder if there are better

methods than garlic to transform phlegm and damp in these patients. I

personally would consider it careless to advice a patient to use solely TCM if

they have full blown AIDS as all the evidence and my experience suggests this

is a death sentence. On the other hand, I do not like using these drugs early

in

the infection. they work quickly enough when needed so I use natural

methods as long as possible.

 

[Guest guest]

They are indeed better off w/o drugs. But the majority have rapidly mutating and multiple strains of virus. Without the triple cocktail they would be gone. I think the best approach is one I still consider to be TCM. the integration of east and west with attention to the east. >>>>>Thanks for injecting a little reality

Alon

[Guest guest]

 

 

I believe your attitude is a good one with regard to integration. The protease inhibitors could have come earlier. In the 1980's funding for research was at 10% or less of that recommended by the National Academy of Sciences. When funding finally came about, David Ho and the others got to do their work. Protease inhibitors are simply better antibiotics. CM as you note is still needed and can still improve the quality of life better than anything else out there. Of course, with or without illness, CM guidance with regard to tai chi, qigong, taoist nutritional principles and some tonic formula stimulation are all going to improve quality of life. Such things are not just for those with definable disease.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

I worked at the ITM immune enhancement project in portland in the late eighties and early nineties. We tracked all of our patients with lab tests and valid quality of life scores (karnofsky's). At the time, the only alternative was AZT. Unfortunately, we did not prolong the lives of our patients. We did decrease the incidence and severity of opportunistic infections. Apparently we did not slow the progression of the virus at all and inevitably the patients succumbed. However, their quality of life was much higher than those on AZT. At this time, we had 150 patients. I was a strong proponent at the time of the theory that HIV did not cause AIDS. Yet neither zang fu, wen bing or SHL treatment worked. After the intro of the triple cocktail, the patient load dropped to about 20 and has stayed there ever since. Quality of life on the triple cocktail is much hoigher than we ever achieved at ITM and mortality has dropped through the basement. Subhuti has no qualms about this. He predicted back in the early nineties that it would be western med that would save the day. While we keep hearing that the other shoe is about to drop on the triple cocktail, the fact is that most of the people on it would oong be dead if not for it. those who stubbornly clung to TCM alone are largely gone. those who have survived longterm w/o drugs are probably infected with a weak strain of the virus and have been scrupulous about getting reinfected in the past 15 years. They are indeed better off w/o drugs. But the majority have rapidly mutating and multiple strains of virus. Without the triple cocktail they would be gone. I think the best approach is one I still consider to be TCM. the integration of east and west with attention to the east. The triple cocktail has side effects that seem to be of the damp or phlegm variety. High cholesterol and fat deposits. My hunch would be that these are cooling substances that weaken yang. One promising study that supports this hypothesis is up at bastyr where ND's have found that high dose garlic helps offset the side effects. Garlic of ocurse is warm and would be good for cold phlegm if this is the case. However it makes me wonder if there are better methods than garlic to transform phlegm and damp in these patients. I personally would consider it careless to advice a patient to use solely TCM if they have full blown AIDS as all the evidence and my experience suggests this is a death sentence. On the other hand, I do not like using these drugs early in the infection. they work quickly enough when needed so I use natural methods as long as possible.Todd