Guest guest Posted July 8, 2003 Report Share Posted July 8, 2003 I recently acquired wenlin software and started to explore it a bit. What intially caught my attention is the dramatic upgrade in the version 3.1. John de Francis has updated his dictionary quite considerably. It has evolved from 71,486 entries to a magnanimous 196,000 entries. I don't see how it could be much more comprehensive then that. Wenlin supposedly contains the entire new dictionary. With rumors of a digitized Wiseman dictionary in the future, it becomes truly outstanding; the ways by which reading medical chinese and all kinds of literary and modern styles become that much more accessible. Translating well is certainly an acquired skill which is built out of much work,good hermeneutics and perhaps a well wired intuition. Software like this will never erase the work it takes to convey the original intention of the author, but it certainly speeds the process. Three cheeers for technology. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2003 Report Share Posted July 9, 2003 , " facteau8 " <facteau8> wrote: Software like this will never erase the work it takes to > convey the original intention of the author, but it certainly speeds > the process. Three cheeers for technology. > matt it is truly amazing. I believe it will somehow be integrated into the PCOM doctoral program's language module. With the use of this software and related technology (see Chinese Medicine), I believe it would be feasible for students to be accessing a wide range of chinese medical literature after 2 years. Without this technology, I am highly doubtful that this could be accomplished in ten credits. This means students would learn grammar and terminology, but much of their day to day dictionary lookups would be done electronically. If they wanted to pursue a more comprehnsive study of chinese, there are many routes available. My goal would be familiarity and access. Recognition of characters would come naturally over time and some would go deeper. I think it is unreasonable to expect ten credits of more traditional methods (such as time consuming stroke order dictionaries) to yield any tangible results. We need to decide what the goal should be and what we can accomplish in 10 credits. Keeping in mind all along that PCOM's ten credit language module is generous and it is quite likely that most other schools will have no language requirement at all. the chances of increasing the amount of hours PCOM commits to this aspect is seriously nil. So how do we get the most bang for our buck. modern technology. what do they say? don't work hard, work smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2003 Report Share Posted July 9, 2003 , " " <@i...> wrote: > , " facteau8 " <facteau8> > wrote > > it is truly amazing. I believe it will somehow be integrated into the PCOM > doctoral program's language module. With the use of this software and related > technology (see Chinese Medicine) I've been struggling a bit lately with the related technology bit. OCR software for character recognition seems very expensive. Many programs seem to be at least a few hundred dollars. Certain websites seem to offer some kind of free OCR software? There are so many different programs and varying prices; that being brand new to such things leaves the non-tech oriented, feeling a bit confused. I'm struggling mostly right now with trying to understand and obtain the software needed. , I believe it would be feasible for > students to be accessing a wide range of chinese medical literature after 2 > years. Without this technology, I am highly doubtful that this could be > accomplished in ten credits. I can't seem to find much of guiding light in terms of purchasing chinese medical literature. Flaws wrote of a few sources in his " Learn to read medical chinese book, " but when i called the numbers...some were disconnected and the one time i did get an answer , it was in chinese and they soon enough, hung up on me. Bob also once posted an address for I think a catalog of medical journals on .(Does anyone rememeber the topic?) There was no additional information however, in terms of cost? Should one send some money for the catalog? Is it free? One of my teachers suggested i check out Cypress books on the web for chinese medical books. I inquired about a few, including pinyin and author, publisher, year in the request, yet they didn't even respond to me. The only bibliography of clinically oriented chinese medical works i've seen is Subhuti's, which is a compilation of works written in english and is years outdated and incomplete. I'm not ignorant of the vastness and difficulties of such a project, but i feel as if such a thing must be preliminary to inspiring a vast number of individuals interested in learning medical chinese. At my school we don't even have any books written in chinese that can be taken out of the library. The situation is dismal. What chinese medical literature do you see students utilizing? Why should most students want to learn medical chinese, if they have no access to any literature or better yet a working bibliography of things worth translating and studying? matt This means students would learn grammar and > terminology, but much of their day to day dictionary lookups would be done > electronically. If they wanted to pursue a more comprehnsive study of > chinese, there are many routes available. > > My goal would be familiarity and access. Recognition of characters would > come naturally over time and some would go deeper. I think it is > unreasonable to expect ten credits of more traditional methods (such as time > consuming stroke order dictionaries) to yield any tangible results. We need to > decide what the goal should be and what we can accomplish in 10 credits. > Keeping in mind all along that PCOM's ten credit language module is generous > and it is quite likely that most other schools will have no language > requirement at all. the chances of increasing the amount of hours PCOM > commits to this aspect is seriously nil. So how do we get the most bang for our > buck. modern technology. what do they say? don't work hard, work smart. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2003 Report Share Posted July 9, 2003 M, finding medical Chinese material should not be a problem, one can do an internet search and find a massive amount of material very quickly... There are numerous bookstores in california that have medical texts. I suggest for the beginner the many available that have both the chinese & english (many can be purchased from redwing).. But the bottom-line is that you need to start to learn Chinese first, and you need to get a few basic books (grammar, vocab etc) or take some courses at you local university. (i.e. check out eastwind books in Berkley for good learning tools.) IF one wants to read chinese there is no shortcut, i.e. you cannot just buy the software and suddenly be able to have access to everything. You still have to learn the basics. But the software of course helps… And hopefully in the near future my website will have plenty of OCRed practice texts... ( a few are already available) - I hope that helps..? - ChineseMedicineDoc.com , " facteau8 " <facteau8> wrote: > , " " <@i...> > wrote: > > , " facteau8 " > <facteau8> > > wrote > > > > it is truly amazing. I believe it will somehow be integrated into > the PCOM > > doctoral program's language module. With the use of this software > and related > > technology (see Chinese Medicine) > > I've been struggling a bit lately with the related technology bit. > OCR software for character recognition seems very expensive. Many > programs seem to be at least a few hundred dollars. Certain websites > seem to offer some kind of free OCR software? There are so many > different programs and varying prices; that being brand new to such > things leaves the non-tech oriented, feeling a bit confused. I'm > struggling mostly right now with trying to understand and obtain the > software needed. > > , I believe it would be feasible for > > students to be accessing a wide range of chinese medical literature > after 2 > > years. Without this technology, I am highly doubtful that this > could be > > accomplished in ten credits. > I can't seem to find much of guiding light in terms of purchasing > chinese medical literature. Flaws wrote of a few sources in > his " Learn to read medical chinese book, " but when i called the > numbers...some were disconnected and the one time i did get an > answer , it was in chinese and they soon enough, hung up on me. Bob > also once posted an address for I think a catalog of medical journals > on .(Does anyone rememeber the topic?) There was no > additional information however, in terms of cost? Should one send > some money for the catalog? Is it free? > One of my teachers suggested i check out Cypress books on the web for > chinese medical books. I inquired about a few, including pinyin and > author, publisher, year in the request, yet they didn't even respond > to me. The only bibliography of clinically oriented chinese medical > works i've seen is Subhuti's, which is a compilation of works written > in english and is years outdated and incomplete. I'm not ignorant of > the vastness and difficulties of such a project, but i feel as if > such a thing must be preliminary to inspiring a vast number of > individuals interested in learning medical chinese. At my school we > don't even have any books written in chinese that can be taken out of > the library. The situation is dismal. What chinese medical > literature do you see students utilizing? Why should most students > want to learn medical chinese, if they have no access to any > literature or better yet a working bibliography of things worth > translating and studying? > matt > This means students would learn grammar and > > terminology, but much of their day to day dictionary lookups would > be done > > electronically. If they wanted to pursue a more comprehnsive study > of > > chinese, there are many routes available. > > > > My goal would be familiarity and access. Recognition of characters > would > > come naturally over time and some would go deeper. I think it is > > unreasonable to expect ten credits of more traditional methods > (such as time > > consuming stroke order dictionaries) to yield any tangible > results. We need to > > decide what the goal should be and what we can accomplish in 10 > credits. > > Keeping in mind all along that PCOM's ten credit language module is > generous > > and it is quite likely that most other schools will have no > language > > requirement at all. the chances of increasing the amount of hours > PCOM > > commits to this aspect is seriously nil. So how do we get the most > bang for our > > buck. modern technology. what do they say? don't work hard, work > smart. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2003 Report Share Posted July 9, 2003 , " " <@h...> wrote: > M, > > finding medical Chinese material should not be a problem, one can do > an internet search and find a massive amount of material very > quickly... yes, but many times it would be hard for a beginner to know what he/she would be even translating in a situation like this. Why should students desire to translate things, not knowing what they are looking at or where they are going with it. I agree that this is a good way to practice and it makes sense to use such a resource, but i would imagine most beginners desire a particular project to widdle away at first. This makes learning more meaningful. There are numerous bookstores in california that have > medical texts. got any phone numbers or addresses?? websites? I suggest for the beginner the many available that > have both the chinese & english (many can be purchased from > redwing But the bottom-line is that you need to start to learn > Chinese first, and you need to get a few basic books (grammar, vocab > etc) or take some courses at you local university. (i.e. check out > eastwind books in Berkley for good learning tools.) IF one wants to > read chinese there is no shortcut, i.e. you cannot just buy the > software and suddenly be able to have access to everything. You > still have to learn the basics. I realize that their are no real shortcuts. I tried to make that clear on my original posting on this topic. It is more than obvious to me that the basics are essential. But, that doesn't mean that inspiring students of chinese medical chinese should simply not worry about finding good resources and software and instead be satisfied with random web pages and stuff already translated. But the software of course helps… > And hopefully in the near future my website will have plenty of OCRed > practice texts... ( a few are already available) sounds great - I hope that > helps..? > kinda... What would really help would be specific answers. ex. What is a good OCR software program? Are there free ones? Where can we get medical journals and how much money do we send? Where is the place to go for chinese medical texts? Getting the basics down doesn't seem to automatically answer these kinda questions. matt > - > > ChineseMedicineDoc.com > > , " facteau8 " <facteau8> > wrote: > > , " " > <@i...> > > wrote: > > > , " facteau8 " > > <facteau8> > > > wrote > > > > > > it is truly amazing. I believe it will somehow be integrated > into > > the PCOM > > > doctoral program's language module. With the use of this > software > > and related > > > technology (see Chinese Medicine) > > > > I've been struggling a bit lately with the related technology bit. > > OCR software for character recognition seems very expensive. Many > > programs seem to be at least a few hundred dollars. Certain > websites > > seem to offer some kind of free OCR software? There are so many > > different programs and varying prices; that being brand new to such > > things leaves the non-tech oriented, feeling a bit confused. I'm > > struggling mostly right now with trying to understand and obtain > the > > software needed. > > > > , I believe it would be feasible for > > > students to be accessing a wide range of chinese medical > literature > > after 2 > > > years. Without this technology, I am highly doubtful that this > > could be > > > accomplished in ten credits. > > I can't seem to find much of guiding light in terms of purchasing > > chinese medical literature. Flaws wrote of a few sources in > > his " Learn to read medical chinese book, " but when i called the > > numbers...some were disconnected and the one time i did get an > > answer , it was in chinese and they soon enough, hung up on me. > Bob > > also once posted an address for I think a catalog of medical > journals > > on .(Does anyone rememeber the topic?) There was > no > > additional information however, in terms of cost? Should one send > > some money for the catalog? Is it free? > > One of my teachers suggested i check out Cypress books on the web > for > > chinese medical books. I inquired about a few, including pinyin and > > author, publisher, year in the request, yet they didn't even > respond > > to me. The only bibliography of clinically oriented chinese > medical > > works i've seen is Subhuti's, which is a compilation of works > written > > in english and is years outdated and incomplete. I'm not ignorant > of > > the vastness and difficulties of such a project, but i feel as if > > such a thing must be preliminary to inspiring a vast number of > > individuals interested in learning medical chinese. At my school > we > > don't even have any books written in chinese that can be taken out > of > > the library. The situation is dismal. What chinese medical > > literature do you see students utilizing? Why should most students > > want to learn medical chinese, if they have no access to any > > literature or better yet a working bibliography of things worth > > translating and studying? > > matt > > This means students would learn grammar and > > > terminology, but much of their day to day dictionary lookups > would > > be done > > > electronically. If they wanted to pursue a more comprehnsive > study > > of > > > chinese, there are many routes available. > > > > > > My goal would be familiarity and access. Recognition of > characters > > would > > > come naturally over time and some would go deeper. I think it is > > > unreasonable to expect ten credits of more traditional methods > > (such as time > > > consuming stroke order dictionaries) to yield any tangible > > results. We need to > > > decide what the goal should be and what we can accomplish in 10 > > credits. > > > Keeping in mind all along that PCOM's ten credit language module > is > > generous > > > and it is quite likely that most other schools will have no > > language > > > requirement at all. the chances of increasing the amount of > hours > > PCOM > > > commits to this aspect is seriously nil. So how do we get the > most > > bang for our > > > buck. modern technology. what do they say? don't work hard, > work > > smart. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2003 Report Share Posted July 9, 2003 , " facteau8 " <facteau8> > yes, but many times it would be hard for a beginner to know > what he/she would be even translating in a situation like this. Exactly that is why you have to get the basics down... Why > should students desire to translate things, not knowing what they are > looking at or where they are going with it. you can't translate until you get the basics. you need a teacher or a starter book... I agree that this is a > good way to practice and it makes sense to use such a resource, but i > would imagine most beginners desire a particular project to widdle > away at first. This makes learning more meaningful. I may be way off here, but how can you even attempt a project, when you don't even know a basic sentence structure. I am not trying to be belittling, I just believe that you seem to be looking for exotic new stuff to translate, when you don't have the ability. If you have a teacher that says, he we can work on this together and I will teach you the grammar as we go then that is another situation. But, without that in the beginning you must start with stuff that has already been done, so that you can learn the ropes. Yes this isn't exciting, but I personally think it is the best way... Again I recommend the texts from redwing that are basic theory or materia medica (or whatever you like) that have english & chinese . If it hasn't been translated yet, there is probably no way you will be able to do it... Personally I am always looking for things that have already been translated by people better than I, and learn from these. I also have 2 teachers that I work through other stuff that I don't have the English for. Maybe I am unclear of what your goal is, but that is my input, anyone else? > > > > There are numerous bookstores in california that have > > medical texts. > > I realize that their are no real shortcuts. I tried to make that > clear on my original posting on this topic. It is more than obvious > to me that the basics are essential. But, that doesn't mean that > inspiring students of chinese medical chinese should simply not worry > about finding good resources and software and instead be satisfied > with random web pages and stuff already translated. Again, Chinese web pages are for the advanced, English web pages that sell chinese books can be used by beginners. Already translated stuff is for beginners,, (IMO) Have you worked through Wiseman's books yet? I think you can also start there. They are essential. -jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2003 Report Share Posted July 9, 2003 The notion of doing " translations " of Chinese medical texts, particularly old or classical texts, without a solid foundation of understanding a range of language, literary, and cultural issues is stunning. At one point I was concerned about the automation of ignorance. Now it seems that we have to cope with the automation of pure lunacy. I am not opposed to the appearance and development of such tools. I can not comment on the Wenlin tool because I have never even seen it. I have worked a bit with Nigel and Bob Felt on the development of an electronic encyclopedia of Chinese medicine based on the Practical Dictionary. I've seen Dave Weininger's eDCM, i.e., an electronic dictionary of Chinese medicine, also based on the PD and incorporating extensive molecular and even genetic data bases as cross-referenceable. I think such tools are great. But the use of tools implies that one have a clear grasp of the work that is to be performed. I am once more reminded of Prof. Cheng Man Ching's admonition that we not give up the near to seek the far. Or maybe a more pertinent reference is the old Bob Hope and Jerry Cologna routine that goes: Cologna: Hey Hope, when you build a building do you start at the top or do you start at the bottom. Hope: Cologna you idiot, you start at the bottom. Cologna: (whistling and looking skyward) Hey fellas, come on down! Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2003 Report Share Posted July 9, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " < kenrose2008> wrote: > The notion of doing " translations " > of Chinese medical texts, particularly > old or classical texts, without a > solid foundation of understanding a > range of language, literary, and cultural > issues is stunning. and no one has even suggested that if you read their posts carefully. wenlin replaces a stroke order dictionary. nothing more, nothing less. if you don't know all the other stuff, you are lost. I have said that and Matt said that, too. suggestions of ignorance, much less lunacy, are out of place here. Pretty much all I have seen are thoughtful sane ponderings on the topic. Matt has certainly shown himself to be a student of chinese culture and philosophy with his extensive open minded posts on his readings of Sivin and Unschuld. I certainly hope he will continue to post as he wrestles with these issues as I have been enjoying his contribution. Personally, I am simultaneously using wenlin and studying the wiseman books. they complement each other well and I would be unable to pursue the study at all without having both tools at my disposal. As Jason has said, after ten weeks of basic chinese, students can use wenlin to do clinically useful functional translations of 17th century material. there are many levels of translation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , " " <@h...> wrote: > , " facteau8 " <facteau > > > > I may be way off here, but how can you even attempt a project, when > you don't even know a basic sentence structure. I am not trying to be > belittling, I just believe that you seem to be looking for exotic new > stuff to translate, when you don't have the ability. I mean a project in the sense of a meaningful relationship with a basic article or text in which the outcome inspires the confidence only contribution brings. I'm also implying the hard and many times tedious work it takes. Obviously you need grammar and basic skills. I don't see where exotica really plays a role. Is delving into medical case histories exotic? I'm just peddling for contacts. " If wishes were horses, beggars would ride " If you have a > teacher that says, he we can work on this together and I will teach > you the grammar as we go then that is another situation. But, without > that in the beginning you must start with stuff that has already been > done, so that you can learn the ropes. Yes this isn't exciting, but > I personally think it is the best way... Again I recommend the texts > from redwing that are basic theory or materia medica (or whatever you > like) that have english & chinese . I have recognized this, for the most part. It's in fact very good advice. But, don't you think wenlin and OCR,for the most part aid the whole process. If it hasn't been translated > yet, there is probably no way you will be able to do it... > Personally I am always looking for things that have already been > translated by people better than I, and learn from these. I also > have 2 teachers that I work through other stuff that I don't have the > English for. Maybe I am unclear of what your goal is, but that is my > input, anyone else? My goal was to simply share my joy over the potential for wenlin and at the same try to wry a few sources and points of contact in this whole labyrinth. Thanks again for your well-taken advice.. matt > > > > > > > > > There are numerous bookstores in california that have > > > medical texts. > > > > > I realize that their are no real shortcuts. I tried to make > that > > clear on my original posting on this topic. It is more than > obvious > > to me that the basics are essential. But, that doesn't mean that > > inspiring students of chinese medical chinese should simply not > worry > > about finding good resources and software and instead be satisfied > > with random web pages and stuff already translated. > > Again, Chinese web pages are for the advanced, English web pages that > sell chinese books can be used by beginners. Already translated stuff > is for beginners,, (IMO) Have you worked through Wiseman's books > yet? I think you can also start there. They are essential. > > -jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: > The notion of doing " translations " > of Chinese medical texts, particularly > old or classical texts, without a > solid foundation of understanding a > range of language, literary, and cultural > issues is stunning. > My favorite saying.. " all things are relative " . Unqualified people do translations all the time. How else do you learn chinese? students i knew from C.U.worked on Confucian and Daoist classics. Primarily, because they are important in learning about Chinese history and also because many times we have solid cross- referencing in Legge's works. Of course, what sane person would ever want to put a translation of a classic in print or even imagine it authentic, without the firmest sort of hermeneutic foundations. > At one point I was concerned about > the automation of ignorance. > > Now it seems that we have to cope > with the automation of pure lunacy. > What lunacy? The lunacy of wanting to learn chinese and translate? > I am not opposed to the appearance > and development of such tools. I can > not comment on the Wenlin tool because > I have never even seen it. > > I have worked a bit with Nigel > and Bob Felt on the development of > an electronic encyclopedia of Chinese > medicine based on the Practical Dictionary. > > I've seen Dave Weininger's eDCM, i.e., > an electronic dictionary of Chinese medicine, > also based on the PD and incorporating > extensive molecular and even genetic > data bases as cross-referenceable. > > I think such tools are great. > > But the use of tools implies that one > have a clear grasp of the work that > is to be performed. > > I am once more reminded of Prof. Cheng Man Ching's > admonition that we not give up the near > to seek the far. > > Or maybe a more pertinent reference is the > old Bob Hope and Jerry Cologna routine > that goes: > > Cologna: Hey Hope, when you build a building > do you start at the top or do you start at > the bottom. > > Hope: Cologna you idiot, you start at the > bottom. > > Cologna: (whistling and looking skyward) > Hey fellas, come on down! > Well, i guess being misunderstood is part of the quirks of cyberspace. Why do our projections sometimes sink to the lowest common denominator. is it because it's easier that way? matt > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , " facteau8 " wrote: > I mean a project in the sense of a meaningful relationship with a > basic article or text in which the outcome inspires the confidence > only contribution brings. I'm also implying the hard and many times tedious work it takes. Obviously you need grammar and basic skills. >>> One simple and highly rewarding translation project is to translate books of herbal formulas. It involves a small but very productive vocabulary. The amount and variety of herbal formulas in English translation is paltry; and most modern journal translations seem to refer to the same old 30 or so formulas for everything. In Chinese books there are many and highly varied formulas. For example, one book I have on Osteopathy has over 5,000 different formulas (yes, I counted them). It's fascinating to see the variety possible. You can even choose a formula by your favorite herb or combination. > I don't see where exotica really plays a role. >>> When you get good at translation, you can help settle the dispute started by Sun Si-mo and Yang Shang-shan in the 7th century as to whether it is correct to say that defensive qi has its origins in the lower burner or upper burner. It is claimed that the term 'xia- lower' was a textual error made in transcribing the Ling Shu. And just don't read Stephen Birch's article, " What is the Sanjiao, Triple Burner? An Explanation, " in the Winter 2003 issue of EJOM. You'll see that the Chinese still haven't settle that controversy either. You may get frustrated and not want to translate anything. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , wrote: >and no one has even suggested that if you read their posts carefully. wenlin >replaces a stroke order dictionary. nothing more, nothing less. if you don't >know all the other stuff, you are lost. I have said that and Matt said that, too. >suggestions of ignorance, much less lunacy, are out of place here. Pretty much >all I have seen are thoughtful sane ponderings on the topic I have to admit, when I read Matt’s post on the topic I had the same reaction as Jason and Ken. This was partially due to the mention of looking for Chinese journals, and his frustration that his school library is devoid of Chinese language materials. When I began studying Chinese several years ago my teacher told me that Chinese grammar was a black hole. I relayed that story to Jason just before he began studying Mandarin. Once he began his studies he told me that my teacher was crazy. Indeed, at first things seem very simple, what with the absence of verb conjugations, etc. The more you study the language however, the more complex it becomes. Medical Chinese is certainly less complex due the narrowly defined subject matter, but a hydra need not have nine heads to be a formidable opponent. Numerous times I have seen non-speakers of Chinese say that of course “you have to know the other stuff or you’ll be lost.” The implication being that once you get that “other stuff” out of the way you can make some serious translational progress. In answer to that I would have to say yes, you can write words that in some way relate to the characters after 10 weeks studying “the other stuff.” Some of it may even make sense, but ask any linguist of the hazards of “dictionary” translations. In the end you will likely be left with a bunch of words on a paper that are strikingly dissimilar to the source (though nothing works better for origami). This can be a great step if you have, as Jason does, teachers to serve as mentors who can point out your mistakes (Jason is of course far past that level now). My point ultimately is that tools like Wenlin open the door to the necessarily time-consuming process of language learning, they don’t open the door to Chinese medical knowledge. The intermediate step of learning the language is a must before realistically expecting to perform “useful” translations. In effect, the ten weeks of grammar study that have hitherto been mentioned function to prepare you to prepare. My hat off to anyone who effectively skips straight to translating armed with Wenlin and 10 weeks, I’ve yet to see it happen. Regarding materials to study/translate, believe me, there is no shortage. You can to Zhongyi Zazhi, though the preponderance of biomedical terms can stifle even the experienced translator. Seeking the materials before you have the skills may not be a truly efficient use of time - more useful texts are published every year. The ideal texts are one’s similar to Craig Mitchell’s Shang Han Lun. That text’s use of characters, pinyin, and translation is a godsend. If we create a market for materials like this then I’m sure more translators will meet the demand in the future. This allows would be translators to make their best effort, and then compare it to a professional translation. Jim Ramholz wrote: >One simple and highly rewarding translation project is to translate >books of herbal formulas. It involves a small but very productive >vocabulary. The amount and variety of herbal formulas in English >translation is paltry; and most modern journal translations seem to >refer to the same old 30 or so formulas for everything. That is a pretty good suggestion. As far as translation complexity goes, it doesn’t get much easier than herbal formulas. And as he says, there is a need. -Tim Sharpe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , " facteau8 " <facteau8> wrote: > , " " > <@h...> wrote: > I mean a project in the sense of a meaningful relationship with a > basic article or text in which the outcome inspires the confidence > only contribution brings. I'm also implying the hard and many times > tedious work it takes. Obviously you need grammar and basic skills. > I don't see where exotica really plays a role. Is delving into > medical case histories exotic? I'm just peddling for contacts. > " If wishes were horses, beggars would ride " They can be definitely exotic. and my point could easily be debated, but here it goes... I started with the idea that you suggest, i.e. I got case studies, articles etc when I first started and a) you definitely need a teacher, no question, I remember some of the crazy translations like " there was a mutton smell coming from the chest " when I think it was something like " it was in the chest " or something... This is one reason I suggest having a piece with the english. b) I really never learned any grammar... what would happen is that you see 5 words and try to make a sentence out of it, and many times you might get it right... again this is fine if you have someone to check you. If you don't , english (with it) is essential... I am fairly new to this and I have struggled A LOT! so I am a little familiar with what is best (at least for me)... basically I wasted a lot of time…. On my website (Chinese Medicine) in the next two days I will have up the first lurking pathogen wen bing case study, with chinese, pinyin, and translation. This is great to practice with. Also I will have a forum, to specifically discuss the intricacies of translation & specific issues in pieces on the website. Your problem, trust me, was my problem, and this is why I created my website. It is hard, and there is no easy solution... to con't But..... I think if you want to really get what you are reading, you have to get a program where you learn basic sentence patterns, grammar etc.. unfortunately this is only offered in non-medical books... so maybe I or someone will develop this, but that is why I say get the basics first. meaning, you can spend a lot of time widdling away at case studies thinking that you have mutton smell coming from somewhere, or invest the initial time with a class, teacher or basic language books and jump ahead... (just my idea)... was that babble somewhat clear... If you just want to access material medicas (and even case studies) etc. this is easy with Wenlin and an ocr… you might not get it 100% right, but you will get much of it, and that is great.. TECH ROX… but the reason I have spent so much time typing to you is that you seem serious and want to suggest a path that will reap some long-term benefits, nothing more.. I have spun my wheels, and wish there was a medical lang prg. Setup up when I started 4 years ago, but there wasn't… so ask around and take what I say with a grain of salt… -Jason ChineseMedicineDoc.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 Seeking the materials before you have the skills may not be a truly efficient use of time - more useful texts are published every year >>>>>Tim how long does it take so it is efficient use of time? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , " " <@h...> wrote: > On my website (Chinese Medicine) in the next two days I > will have up the first lurking pathogen wen bing case study, with > chinese, pinyin, and translation. This is great to practice with. It would seem then that Mitchell's SHL could be an excellent language learning text for those who want to delve deeper whilst still getting the basics down. I would like to see a wenlin readable version of the text. I think some type of PDF might cut and paste right into wenlin, characters and all. I know I can do this with some PDFs, but not others. Then you could attempt translation on your own and immediately check your work. You could also view stroke order demonstrations of any character and learn abouts it history and etymology. Doesn't Unschuld actually promote a natural language learning method in his books that largely focuses on learning by doing? Having immediate access to the actual correct translation is a good way to reinforce grammar after having studied the basics. On the other hand, I have no doubt Ken is correct about the knowledge necessary to translate classic texts. Heiner Fuehauf felt strongly that a deep study of the han taoist philosophers and the personal practice of qi gong revealed things about the nei jing and SHL that were otherwise unfathomable. However it is indeed a simple straightforward matter to use wenlin to translate things like: ginseng, sweet, bitter, warm, supplements SP, blah blah blah. It is also fun and you can learn useful stuff. But even modern material written in paragraph format is pretty much impossible to decipher for me without a good handle on grammar. However I might argue that it is worth trying to translate such complex pieces if only to discover where one's weaknesses lie. BTW, what software is good for teaching grammar? Anyone want to trade me a good PC laptop for one of my macs (a 350 mHz imac with system 9)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , " " <@i...> wrote: > Doesn't Unschuld actually promote a natural language learning method in his > books that largely focuses on learning by doing? Having immediate access to > the actual correct translation is a good way to reinforce grammar after having > studied the basics. Absolutely, I started with some lists of medical vocab from Ted Kaptchuck, then thee Shanghai books, then a few years later Unshulds' books then Wisemans'using Wenlin from the beginning. Culture nuances or no, clinically it hs been useful. If the idea is to encourage people to read medical Chinese then I think that it is a mistake to make it too precious, just do it, especially with Wenlin. Matt, in case this wasn't given before, a source for magazines from China is China International Book Trading Corporation. P.O Box 399, Beijing China. and ask for their catologue of periodicals. The titles are now in english. Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 I think you have a great idea, Todd. One of the best uses of Wenlin would be to be able to paste in texts such as the Mitchell SHL and work with the text as a study tool. On the other hand, I didn't find that the Unschuld method worked in my own tutorial. But for me, I think it was the choice of a modern Qin Bo-wei text to translate, which has a lot of compounds and drawn out phrases when compared with more classical texts. I found it much more difficult to learn than the SHL material. On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 09:33 AM, wrote: > It would seem then that Mitchell's SHL could be an excellent language > learning > text for those who want to delve deeper whilst still getting the > basics down. I > would like to see a wenlin readable version of the text. I think some > type of > PDF might cut and paste right into wenlin, characters and all. I know > I can do > this with some PDFs, but not others. Then you could attempt > translation on > your own and immediately check your work. You could also view stroke > order > demonstrations of any character and learn abouts it history and > etymology. > Doesn't Unschuld actually promote a natural language learning method > in his > books that largely focuses on learning by doing? Having immediate > access to > the actual correct translation is a good way to reinforce grammar > after having > studied the basics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 I have been saying for some time now that Mitchell-Wiseman-Ye's Shang Han Lun is the 'gold standard' in Chinese medical texts for learning medical Chinese. That is why I put my endorsement on the back cover. On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 12:36 AM, Tim Sharpe wrote: > Regarding materials to study/translate, believe me, there is no > shortage. You can to Zhongyi Zazhi, though the > preponderance of biomedical terms can stifle even the experienced > translator. Seeking the materials before you have the skills may not > be a truly efficient use of time - more useful texts are published > every year. The ideal texts are one’s similar to Craig Mitchell’s > Shang Han Lun. That text’s use of characters, pinyin, and translation > is a godsend. If we create a market for materials like this then I’m > sure more translators will meet the demand in the future. This allows > would be translators to make their best effort, and then compare it to > a professional translation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 [zrosenbe] wrote: >I didn't find that the Unschuld method worked in my >own tutorial. But for me, I think it was the choice of a modern Qin >Bo-wei text to translate, which has a lot of compounds and drawn out >phrases when compared with more classical texts. I found it much more >difficult to learn than the SHL material. I agree with you Z’ev, Dan Bensky told me a couple of years ago that he has consistently seen some horrible translations come from students who used the Unschuld books as primary texts. Personally I was never really able to get any momentum using them. I believe that their value will increase greatly when my proficiency increases. Honestly though, when I reach that point I will be more likely to work on journal articles. An interesting side-note: my friends in China told me that I was crazy when I mentioned that I planned on working on classical Chinese texts before tackling modern stuff. They said that even as native speakers they do not understand the classical texts. It’s interesting how non-native speakers perceive language acquisition differently than native speakers. I suppose I need only consider Beowulf to see their point. A non-native English speaker would probably have less trouble with that than they would with Harry Potter. -Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 Many classical texts have been 'translated' into modern characters, while retaining classical sentence structure. I have several of those in my library, from the wen bing tiao bian to nan jing and a dictionary containing all the classical works. Many modern books and articles mix classical and modern linguistic structures (and characters), heightening the confusion. 'Classical' is a very vast category, spanning generations of material. Some texts are very difficult, some are easier. I can't explain it, I just feel more comfortable working with some of the more classical texts and their sentence structure. Fortunately, I have an excellent Chinese tutor who is fluent in classical Chinese language and grammar, it helps a lot. My progress with this stuff is slow but steady, but I'm just going to keep on keeping on. On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 12:57 PM, Tim Sharpe wrote: > An interesting side-note: my friends inChinatold me that I was crazy > when I mentioned that I planned on working on classical Chinese texts > before tackling modern stuff. They said that even as native speakers > they do not understand the classical texts. It’s interesting how > non-native speakers perceive language acquisition differently than > native speakers. I suppose I need only consider Beowulf to see their > point. A non-native English speaker would probably have less trouble > with that than they would with Harry Potter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 My own initial strategy has been to study Wiseman's Chinese Medical Chinese " Grammar and vocabulary " concentrating on trying to digest his grammar lessons and gathering basic med. vocabulary. I have also found Flaw's book on reading medical chinese to be helpful. I am trying to memorize all the basic radicals in order to shorten my dictionary flipping time and plan on reading the classical language study in Michell's Shang han lun. My language library also consists of Reading and writing chinese William Mcnuaghton Chinese Characters A geneology and dictionary Xinhua dictionary Matthews dictionary an analytic dictionary of chinese and sino-japanese bernard kalgren Paul unschuld's book vol2 I am interested in hearing peoples opinions on which of these books or others, people have found to be very useful, somewhat useful, or not very useful. How are Yi po-ching's(??) books on grammar? Has anyone checked out An introduction to literary chinese by Michael a. Fuller or A new introduction to classical chinese by Raymond Dawson. these books looked interesting to me. thanks for all your advice everyone. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 Alon Marcus wrote: >>>>>Tim how long does it take so it is efficient use of time? Alon, my experience has shown that ’s path, as expressed in a recent post, is pretty ideal. Take a class, make some notecards, study them everyday. Then eventually segue to the Wiseman Grammar and Vocabulary book to get more grammar tips and vocabulary ideas. As Z’ev mentioned, the grammar section in Mitchell’s Shang Han Lun is also helpful. The actual time required is relative to the individual, once you have a reasonable grasp of grammar and vocabulary then it makes sense to consider looking for Chinese language materials if you are so inclined. I know both Jason and I have tried to skip, or fast forward through some of those steps in an effort to make things more interesting. I’ve personally found that, as in most things, you have to master the basics before you can begin to soar. There’s nothing wrong with imagining the sweetness of the flight, as long as you keep your eye on the ball. (sorry, once the metaphors started I just couldn’t stop them). -Tim PS – I have been at this for several years, but I am by all means a novice. I have spent much time taking two steps forward and one step back. Sometimes I altogether forget the steps forward. I apologize if my comments serve to discourage anyone from pursuing their studies. To me, a tool like Wenlin is a both a blessing and a curse. It seems like a gift from god, but when it comes down to it, there is a lot of groundwork that needs to be laid before its strengths can truly be recognized. Without the groundwork it is a crutch that I feel will handicap students in the long run. If one’s goal is less ambitious then I concede that with work it can be used as a tool for case study and herbal formula translation, but there is so much more out there!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , " " <@i...> wrote: > , " " <@h...> > wrote: > > > On my website (Chinese Medicine) in the next two days I > > will have up the first lurking pathogen wen bing case study, with > > chinese, pinyin, and translation. This is great to practice with. > > It would seem then that Mitchell's SHL could be an excellent language learning > text for those who want to delve deeper whilst still getting the basics down. This is true... The beauty is that everything included, even all the grammar you need in the back... I > would like to see a wenlin readable version of the text. I think some type of > PDF might cut and paste right into wenlin, characters and all. I know I can do > this with some PDFs, but not others. Then you could attempt translation on > your own and immediately check your work. Since the pinyin is included it would not take long to type the pinyin and convert it to characters (in wenlin or MSword)... You could also view stroke order > demonstrations of any character and learn abouts it history and etymology. > Doesn't Unschuld actually promote a natural language learning method in his > books that largely focuses on learning by doing? Having immediate access to > the actual correct translation is a good way to reinforce grammar after having > studied the basics. Yes that is the key... (basics + natural learning) b/c anyone who has checked out the unschuld books knows that you must first understand basic chinese to make sense of things... or it takes one forever to get through the books... - ChineseMedicineDoc.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , " Tim Sharpe " > > An interesting side-note: my friends in China told me that I was crazy when > I mentioned that I planned on working on classical Chinese texts before > tackling modern stuff. They said that even as native speakers they do not > understand the classical texts. It's interesting how non-native speakers > perceive language acquisition differently than native speakers. My take on this is that it is much easier to understand what 4 classical characters mean if there is a translation right in front of you, or you have someone explaining it to you (you say oh that's easy.. move on) vs. the modern sentences which take some initial investment in grammar to make sense of the 20+ characters. It seems like there is almost no grammar in classical Chinese. But I do not believe this to be true. I think if you saw those 4 characters without the translation (or help) you would have a much harder time actually knowing what things mean (for sure). Where with modern Chinese with some basic grammar, things are spelled out much more clearly, and having to know various classical nuances are not as necessary. Starting with classical Chinese makes sense if you want to recognize medical terms & phrases, but if you want to be able to read, it doesn't make much sense to me… (others?) - ChineseMedicineDoc.com -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 , " " <@h...> wrote: > , " Tim Sharpe " > > > > An interesting side-note: my friends in China told me that I was > crazy when > > I mentioned that I planned on working on classical Chinese texts > before > > tackling modern stuff. They said that even as native speakers they > do not > > understand the classical texts. It's interesting how non-native > speakers > > perceive language acquisition differently than native speakers. > > My take on this is that it is much easier to understand what 4 > classical characters mean if there is a translation right in front of > you, or you have someone explaining it to you (you say oh that's > easy.. move on) vs. the modern sentences which take some initial > investment in grammar to make sense of the 20+ characters. It seems > like there is almost no grammar in classical Chinese. But I do not > believe this to be true. I think if you saw those 4 characters > without the translation (or help) you would have a much harder time > actually knowing what things mean (for sure). Where with modern > Chinese with some basic grammar, things are spelled out much more > clearly, and having to know various classical nuances are not as > necessary. Starting with classical Chinese makes sense if you want > to recognize medical terms & phrases, but if you want to be able to > read, it doesn't make much sense to me… (others?) > That should be... 'able to read modern chinese (journals etc)...' -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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