TCM text book

July 14, 2003

Hello everyone,

I often hear alot of criticism about CAM and other text books used in

our schools. My question for all of you is- what is the ideal text

book? How could CAM or Shanghai's College of TCM's Acupuncture a

comprehensive text or Giovanni's Foundations of TCM be improved?

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you,

Dave Russell

July 15, 2003

Hi Dave,

I couldn't agree with you more. I am thoroughly disgusted with the main

educational texts used in our educational training. From my experience

as a fourth year student, because the texts are so poor, the difference

between a good professor and a mediocre one is the quality of the

supplemental material we are provided with. CAM is loaded with errors,

my profs disagree with Giovanni's conclusions constantly, Shanghai is

tedious and poorly organized, and my better Chinese professors have

serious problems with Bensky's Materia Medica and formula books including

his translations.

One piece of hopeful news: THere is a new series of very well presented

texts from Hua xia publishing house: " The clinical essentials of

contemporary Series " published in 2002. So far I have

seen two volumes: Fundamentals of Formulas of , and

Pediatrics of. I like what I have seen so far. Check out

tcmtreatment.com for more info. and let me know what you think.

I really hate being negative and critical, but we've got to have some

better texts, ala Deadman et al " Manual of Acupuncture " or the

wonderfully illustrated Seirin acupuncture atlas.

Yehuda Frischman

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July 15, 2003

, yehuda l frischman wrote:

but we've got to have some better texts, ala Deadman et al " Manual

of Acupuncture " or the wonderfully illustrated Seirin acupuncture

atlas. >>>

Yehuda:

I agree. When I taught Point Theory II several years back (mostly as

a review for myself) I switched the required text to Deadman. I

found the point combinations especially insightful and helpful. They

illustrate the various functions of the points and the dynamics of

acupuncture protocols.

Jim Ramholz

July 15, 2003

Yehuda and James,

I agree with you both about Deadman's book- it's a beauty! I'm also a

fan of a Dafang Zeng's Materia Medica in his Essentials of Chinese

Medicine series. His website is www.schisandrae.com.

What impresses me about his book is after going through each

individual herb in a group he has a " remarks and differentiations "

section similar to Bensky's, but much more organized. He has diagrams

showing the similarities between several herbs in a grouping and then

a blurb on what each one is unique for. I've found it to be really

helpful for studying, plus it's much smaller then most other materia

medicas (still covers 318 herbs though) which is nice for carrying

around in my back pack. I'm looking forward to seeing his other books.

Dave Russell

July 15, 2003

Yehuda,

I'd be very interested in knowing what the " serious " problems are with

Bensky & Gamble's materia medica. I have reviewed the Chinese source

literature that book is compiled from and it seems pretty faithful to

its standard Chinese sources. Can you cite specific examples of

problems?

Bob

, yehuda l frischman

<@j...> wrote:

> Hi Dave,

>

> I couldn't agree with you more. I am thoroughly disgusted with the

main

> educational texts used in our educational training. From my

experience

> as a fourth year student, because the texts are so poor, the

difference

> between a good professor and a mediocre one is the quality of the

> supplemental material we are provided with. CAM is loaded with

errors,

> my profs disagree with Giovanni's conclusions constantly, Shanghai

is

> tedious and poorly organized, and my better Chinese professors have

> serious problems with Bensky's Materia Medica and formula books

including

> his translations.

>

> One piece of hopeful news: THere is a new series of very well

presented

> texts from Hua xia publishing house: " The clinical essentials of

> contemporary Series " published in 2002. So far I

have

> seen two volumes: Fundamentals of Formulas of , and

> Pediatrics of. I like what I have seen so far.

Check out

> tcmtreatment.com for more info. and let me know what you think.

>

> I really hate being negative and critical, but we've got to have

some

> better texts, ala Deadman et al " Manual of Acupuncture " or the

> wonderfully illustrated Seirin acupuncture atlas.

>

> Yehuda Frischman

>

> ______________

> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!

> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

July 15, 2003

>

> , yehuda l frischman

> <@j...> wrote:

my better Chinese professors have

> > serious problems with Bensky's Materia Medica and formula books

> including

> > his translations.

> >

> > One piece of hopeful news: THere is a new series of very well

> presented

> > texts from Hua xia publishing house:

Yehuda

I think you are being biased by sources who are not familiar with translation

issues. While I also have no use for CAM and Giovanni is somewhat

idiosyncratic in just about everyone's opinion, bensky is really beyond

reproach. All american translators I know say his material is quite faithful.

As for the books you are touting, I will just make one comment. If they are

translated in china by native chinese speakers and they do not use a standard

terminology, then the violate all the principles of correct professional

translation and should be treated thusly. Who recommended them to you?

While Bensky is also less than scrupulous in the terminology area, he is

personally trustworthy, his connotations can be taken at face value and are

clinically useful. After 16 years with his books on my shelf and despite all

that have come since, if I had to choose only two for my trip to a deserted

island, it would be his, hands down. I would advise digging deeper into the

reasoning of your " better chinese professors " . You might be surprised what

you find.

And everyone should take care with potentially libelous statements on this

list. Review and critiques are fine. Poorly supported dismissals or attacks

are

a dangerous water to tread in and really won't be tolerated.

July 15, 2003

Dave,

What you are describing is a study guide, a 'Cliff's Notes " type of

book, not a materia medica. There isn't any new information in it. It

may be a good study tool for students, but it hardly replaces

Bensky-Gamble's Materia Medica.

On Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 12:30 AM, seacell1 wrote:

> Yehuda and James,

> I agree with you both about Deadman's book- it's a beauty! I'm also a

> fan of a Dafang Zeng's Materia Medica in his Essentials of Chinese

> Medicine series. His website is www.schisandrae.com.

>

> What impresses me about his book is after going through each

> individual herb in a group he has a " remarks and differentiations "

> section similar to Bensky's, but much more organized. He has diagrams

> showing the similarities between several herbs in a grouping and then

> a blurb on what each one is unique for. I've found it to be really

> helpful for studying, plus it's much smaller then most other materia

> medicas (still covers 318 herbs though) which is nice for carrying

> around in my back pack. I'm looking forward to seeing his other books.

>

> Dave Russell

>

July 15, 2003

, " seacell1 " <seacell@n...> wrote:

>

> What impresses me about his book is after going through each

> individual herb in a group he has a " remarks and differentiations "

> section similar to Bensky's, but much more organized.

the new version of bensky will contain information not available anywhere

else in english. I also think you miss the point of bensky. it is a textbook

and

comprehensive source, not a clinical reference or study guide. It is not meant

to be the best book for the busy practitioner or the student looking for study

tips. it is meant for the serious herbalist who has time to explore and ponder.

look at the zhng yao da ci dian, which can't be carried around, yet no one

would be without. It is important to understand the role of each book and

accord them their proper worth.

July 15, 2003

Yehuda, Bob and list,

I spent seven months of last year completing my Chinese medicine degree with a clinical internship at the jiang su sheng zhong yi wan and Nanjing Uni of TCM. While I was there, I made almost weekly trips to the bookshops in search of TCM texts which resulted in a few boxes of shipped back to australia.

The English texts recently published in china (2001-2) have certainly improved in quality in terms of not “simplifying for the western reader” and include much new information regarding research and discoveries. However, they are still riddled with typos and neglect thorough and transparent explanations of important basic terms and theories. This last point, I feel, is the most disturbing for those of us who have no access to TCM literature in Chinese and why Wiseman’s and Bob’s (Flaws) contributions are so vital to the future of truly professional TCM in the west.

“Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion” is like primary school acupuncture.....certainly not a professional text. Maciocia, while helpful to beginners and clearly and attractively designed and written is becoming less “respected” by me the more I learn from other more recent and “consistent” and internally logical publications.

Like most Asian “arts”, mastery is rooted in the simple and basic.............the area that was not taught well in my education and is of endless frustration to me. I currently spend most of my study time, trying to “re-learn” the basics due to never being taught definitions of terms in readily understandable and consistent English. Without Wiseman and Flaws.......I often believe I would have given up my pursuit of TCM due to being a perfectionist who is not satisfied with the vague and inconstant; especially when it concerns such a vital issue.....the health of our fellow man!

My lecturers too (all native Chinese), constantly ridiculed and found problems with ANY English text including Bensky, Maciocia, Flaws, Wiseman etc. Sadly, this attitude was one more influenced by racial/cultural issues than objective, professional judgement. Although these texts were the official references for the course, they were not actually used as such.....if we ever completed an assignment using information from these that the “Professors” disagreed with, we were marked down and told WE were incorrect. This, apart from being unprofessional (how can you mark down for a referenced citation?) was endlessly frustrating as I always asked what should I read that was “correct”. The response was always “class notes” or some English translation written by a Chinese translator which was riddled with confusing grammar, no glossary, inconsistant/vague terminology, typos and no index to actually find any information.

When, on several occasions I approached the leader of my University concerning the issues of texts and translations I was always dismissed with an overwhelming impression that only Chinese could write English TCM texts (which is an opinion I can only see is based on not being able to comprehend the more detailed and accurate English by authors such as Wiseman). When lecturers proclaimed a certain statement in a text such as Bensky was wrong in was often based on the simple fact that ONE Chinese text they liked disagreed (not a general consensus of Chinese texts), saving face attempt due to an innocent mistake by that lecturer or the lecturer not understanding the actual meaning of the terminology used.

There is currently an overwhelming resistance to the improved standards of translation in Australia which is led by Wiseman and Flaws. After numerous conversations with Chinese professors and lecturers, I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that it is a Chinese versus English situation. The majority of these individuals who express overt disrespect for translations or text written by native English speakers have not really read ANY of the Wiseman or Flaws material with an English dictionary at hand which I believe would be the minimum requirement for a native Chinese speaker with less than perfect English skills to understand such good and detailed English. While I understand their reluctance to “re-learn” TCM English to improve the understanding and export of TCM to the west due to the work involved........I believe that as a teacher, it is their professional responsibility to get across what they are teaching in a clear, accurate, consistent and understandable manner. Due to the vagueness, simplification and inconsistency of TCM English taught in Degree level TCM education........the “re-learning” is left to the student after graduation if they are dedicated to perfection of TCM and being the best health care provider they can be for their patients and fellow man. Sadly, I know many change career after completion of a TCM education due to fear of their incompetence to treat “real” sick people which I believe is due, in not small part, to a confused and incomplete understanding of the root of TCM; the basics. The work involved in “re-learning” the basics is hard and long......but I find it very rewarding!!! The number of flashes of inspiration and those final “Clicks” of understanding are liberating and worth the struggle........soon it will be time to tackle the ultimate........learning medical Chinese............

I believe that today, not tomorrow or next year, we have enough professionally translated texts to begin a accurate and professional education in TCM in English texts IF we agree to use Wiseman terminology as the “default” terminology..........even of only for reference purposes when confusion arises. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen until the “Professors” and lecturers learn this terminology themselves..........no small task; but I believe a vital one for the future of a professionally respected TCM medical tradition being born in the west.

I apologise for the degree of bitterness present in this post......but it has allowed me to release some of the frustration I have felt on this issue, one that I obviously have suffered with throughout my TCM education (certainly in no small part to my own unhealthy insistence for quality and professionalism when it involves to the healthcare of the ill). After all, better out than in eh?

Best health to all!!

Steve

On 16/7/03 12:23 AM, " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote:

Yehuda,

I'd be very interested in knowing what the " serious " problems are with

Bensky & Gamble's materia medica. I have reviewed the Chinese source

literature that book is compiled from and it seems pretty faithful to

its standard Chinese sources. Can you cite specific examples of

problems?

Bob

, yehuda l frischman

<@j...> wrote:

> Hi Dave,

>

> I couldn't agree with you more. I am thoroughly disgusted with the

main

> educational texts used in our educational training. From my

experience

> as a fourth year student, because the texts are so poor, the

difference

> between a good professor and a mediocre one is the quality of the

> supplemental material we are provided with. CAM is loaded with

errors,

> my profs disagree with Giovanni's conclusions constantly, Shanghai

is

> tedious and poorly organized, and my better Chinese professors have

> serious problems with Bensky's Materia Medica and formula books

including

> his translations.

>

> One piece of hopeful news: THere is a new series of very well

presented

> texts from Hua xia publishing house: " The clinical essentials of

> contemporary Series " published in 2002. So far I

have

> seen two volumes: Fundamentals of Formulas of , and

> Pediatrics of. I like what I have seen so far.

Check out

> tcmtreatment.com for more info. and let me know what you think.

>

> I really hate being negative and critical, but we've got to have

some

> better texts, ala Deadman et al " Manual of Acupuncture " or the

> wonderfully illustrated Seirin acupuncture atlas.

>

> Yehuda Frischman

>

> ______________

> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!

> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

July 15, 2003

, Steve Slater <dragonslive@h...>

wrote:

> When, on several occasions I approached the leader of my University

> concerning the issues of texts and translations I was always dismissed with

> an overwhelming impression that only Chinese could write English TCM texts

which flies in the face of all professional translation

When

> lecturers proclaimed a certain statement in a text such as Bensky was wrong

> in was often based on the simple fact that ONE Chinese text they liked

> disagreed (not a general consensus of Chinese texts), saving face attempt

> due to an innocent mistake by that lecturer or the lecturer not

> understanding the actual meaning of the terminology used.

I believe we have a serious problem in this country as we attempt to increase

educational standards, which is how to train and utilize chinese teachers as

they possess all the knowledge. I believe that the curriculum at schools such

as PCOM and SIOM (sorry, I don't know what's up elsewhere --please chime

in), which is based on modern curriculum design is so more effective than the

old style rote learning, there is really no basis for comparison. In ALL other

fields, case based problem solving oriented learning has become the norm and

is statistically validated as most effective. this is the style that also most

closely approximates the traditional apprenticeship. the university style of

learning in the modern PRC is based upon a german model of rote science

learning developed in the early 20th century. See this article by Paul Karstens

for more details on all this:

http://www.siom.com/resources/texts/articles/p-karsten/education.html

this german model is considered obsolete, even in germany, yet it persists in

one place in the west, the american education of TCM practitioners. As we

strive to change this, we find our biggest stumbling block to be chinese

teachers who are unwilling to even discuss or consider the matter of

curriculum design. At every faculty and dept. meeting, most of the chinese

make the same refrain. It is all about rote memorization. the solution to our

educational dilemma in the US is to abandon our progressive educational

reform and replace it all with hard core drilling of data. In their minds, this

subject is not even open to debate. so we are left stalemated, unable to

manifest our vision because some teachers stubbornly refuse to teach any

differently than they were taught. well, you know what, parroting the

methodology you learned by is not teaching. Teaching is a consideration of

one's environment, students, abilities, proclivities. You can bemoan the fact

that more students are not hard core memorizers, but if we can produce

students who actually remember more by memorizing less, which model

succeeded?

July 15, 2003

I will review my classnotes and get back to you. Two quick things come to

mind: Wen Jing Tang he translates as Warm the Menses Decoction.

However, my professor Dr. Ji Jiang tells me that a correct translation

would be Warm the Channels (as in jing luo), those channels being the

chong and ren, and that yue is the correct translation of menses.

Second, in the materia medica, he lists gan cao as antagonizing Yuan zhi.

Yet they are two of the ingredients in Gui pi tang.

Please understand that I 1) am only a student. 2)my information is

limited to what I have read and learned from my professors over the last

3+ years, and 3) I don't speak Chinese. Any information that I offer is

not to be adversarial, but in thequest of excellence.

Humbly accept my apologies if I have stepped on any toes or spoken

inappropriately.

Respectfully,

Yehuda Frischman

______________

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July 15, 2003

Again forgive my affront and refer my comments in response to Bob Flaws.

I will make a serious effort, to accumulate the objections that I have

heard from at least three of my Chinese professsors as soon as I am able.

Humbly,

Yehuda

______________

The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!

Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

July 15, 2003

Sorry all,

I would just briefly like to clarify a couple of my oversimplifications and generalisations which I sent before a thorough reading of my previous post................

Other issues about the inherent disrespect of TCM translations written by native English speakers are obviously the questions of “ownership” of TCM and national pride and the protection from embarrassment (face) involved in accepting translations of TCM by native English speakers. Such issues are certainly not an exclusive to any race or culture. Actually, when I really think about it.........I feel these are the real issues; however, perhaps they should be left here due to their inherent racial overtones and sensitivities potentially involved..................

I sincerely believe, that if the current generation of native Chinese professors and lecturers seriously studied and considered the Wiseman terminology with his dictionary, glossary and texts in hand alongside a good general English Chinese dictionary and compared and considered his translations compared to the original Chinese and current simplified version taught in Chinese English texts they would be excited. Excited and relieved with, at the very least, the prospect of lessoning the frustrations I know THEY experience with incessant questions asked by enthusiastic students which are horrifically difficult to answer with previous English terminology. I am sure many teachers mistakenly believe us lao wai can never really understand TCM due to feeling that our incessant questioning and confusion over details or inconsistencies is based in nothing more than not being Chinese. They don’t understand how frustrating and unclear the current default, poorly written English references and terminology is as they still think in Chinese. I believe this “thinking” explains infinitely more in their own minds that is not deemed necessary to translate or too difficult to with their current TCM English vocabulary.

I deeply and sincerely apologise if any list member feels any of my comments are racially biased or insensitive......they are certainly not meant to give that impression and I have no such beliefs. I talk rather bluntly, and I hope this is not construed as disrespect!! I am simply expressing the causes and possible solutions to this issue as I currently see them.

Best Wishes!!

Steve

“When, on several occasions I approached the leader of my University concerning the issues of texts and translations I was always dismissed with an overwhelming impression that only Chinese could write English TCM texts (which is an opinion I can only see is based on not being able to comprehend the more detailed and accurate English by authors such as Wiseman). When lecturers proclaimed a certain statement in a text such as Bensky was wrong in was often based on the simple fact that ONE Chinese text they liked disagreed (not a general consensus of Chinese texts), saving face attempt due to an innocent mistake by that lecturer or the lecturer not understanding the actual meaning of the terminology used.”

“There is currently an overwhelming resistance to the improved standards of translation in Australia which is led by Wiseman and Flaws. After numerous conversations with Chinese professors and lecturers, I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that it is a Chinese versus English situation. The majority of these individuals who express overt disrespect for translations or text written by native English speakers have not really read ANY of the Wiseman or Flaws material with an English dictionary at hand which I believe would be the minimum requirement for a native Chinese speaker with less than perfect English skills to understand such good and detailed English. While I understand their reluctance to “re-learn” TCM English to improve the understanding and export of TCM to the west due to the work involved........I believe that as a teacher, it is their professional responsibility to get across what they are teaching in a clear, accurate, consistent and understandable manner. Due to the vagueness, simplification and inconsistency of TCM English taught in Degree level TCM education........the “re-learning” is left to the student after graduation if they are...”........

July 15, 2003

Hi

You have my total agreement on this issue. I was a student representative at faculty and staff/student meetings and often met the very same resistance and dismissal in favour of the status quo.

Personally I know I learn best and remember more when I actually “understand” something. Understanding allows application, the ultimate goal of such endevours as education. I have found my understanding is best facilitated when the lecturing is somewhat conversation and includes visuals and analogies to previously known data, regardless of whether that data is related to medicine or not. If a student doesn’t understand a concept, the use of analogy is a remarkable simple and effective tool to clear up any such confusion. The use of analogy is everywhere in the TCM tradition, however what confuses me is the total lack of creatively with using this device when actually teaching students today by my lecturers. All to often, the explanation to a question simply consisted of repeating the same sentence (grrrr). This usually led to the student who proposed the query giving up hands in the air and a look of resignation after further attempts to re-clarify their own question were met with that very same sentence being once again repeated as though repetition would facilitate understanding. Repetition facilitates memorisation, a very different beast.

I believe teaching with the goal understanding is the crux of effective education......not the accumulation of endless snippets of individual and somewhat unconnected bits of data.

As you rightly say, Chinese education involves endless wrote memorisation, perhaps with the expectation that of all these individual bits of data will eventually spontaneously form a coherent, internally consistent whole at some unknown time in the future (grey hair may very well be involved:P).

Steve

16/7/03 2:25 AM, " " < wrote: