Guest guest Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 Emmanuel,Emmanuel wrote: > On a month-long retreat in the New Mexico desert, this was my precise question. My guide was a woman Sufi mystic named Taj Inayat. I quote: "Soul is the intersection of earthly heredity with divine heredity. It is where the two meet. To locate yourself in that intersection consciously is to find your place in the world wherein you can accomplish your full potential." She indicated that things would come to you, and you could accomplish a great deal from consciously working from that intersection. This is one answer. I sense there are many. No doubt.These things remain mysteries to me.Ken Dear Ken, Z'ev, Yehuda, and All, Thanks, Ken, for asking the question. I hope you will indulge me just one more step along this path. I believe that Taj's definition of soul and Yehuda's advice regarding career were the same ... after a bit of interpretation. I did push Taj for further commentary at that time years ago, and she said essentially the following. There is a longitudinal heredity which is all that one has gotten from biology, as well as family and cultural upbringing: including school, formal religion, neighborhood friends and so on. There is a vertical heretidy that one acquires essentially out of yearning. This would include the yearning of the artist, musician, forest wanderer or formal student of meditation. I suggested that most on this list have internal cultivation practices, and this would be that vertical scale. The idea from Taj is that you find yourself on the horizontal and vertical scale and consciously develop with an eye to both sources of nourishment and to both sources of attainment. Considering that one could have several horizontal and several vertical axes of development, this is a multidimensional project. Also consider the notion from previous posts that we activate and deactivate genes and autonomic set-points through behavior. So one could explore CM or physiology from this perspective. I would further note that positioning one's self at the intersection of one's career practice and one's internal cultivation practice could be described as developing soul. Of course, Fernando Bernal has been broadcasting the results of this yearning on his jazz station for quite some time. Nothing new for him. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 Emmanuel, If my indulgence is required to permit another step, then you can go all the way. And if the liaison between soul and jazz is valid...which I suspect it is, then we'd better throw in Louis Armstrong's rejoinder when asked, " What is jazz? " " If you gotta ask, you'll never know, " is all that Satchmo said. Ken PS. I question your assumption that most on this list have some form of personal cultivation. That's what I was trying to find out a while back when I asked about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 - Emmanuel Segmen Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:11 PM Re: Soul work/career work Emmanuel wrote: There is a longitudinal heredity which is all that one has gotten from biology, as well as family and cultural upbringing: including school, formal religion, neighborhood friends and so on. There is a vertical heretidy that one acquires essentially out of yearning. This would include the yearning of the artist, musician, forest wanderer or formal student of meditation. Thanks Emmanuel, by taking "one more step" you've landed in a fertile terrian for discussion of medicine. I understand the "longitudinal heredity" to be fate, and the "vertical" to be freedom. I wonder is it possible to position oneself anywhere else? Isn't it that when we diagnose and treat patients that we enter into that patients own "intersection"? We could say that the notion of diagnosis itself is a notion of fate, a clearly establish pattern, a momentum, and treatment seems to imply freedom. to think in these terms expands my notion of what i'm doing (when i bill 97801). Sinc, Dean By the way, since i mostly read and rarely write this list, i'd like to express my appreciation for those that make it happen. It's very cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Dear colleagues, I'm interested in what people have to say about the soul related to concepts of the hun and po. I see them as a fundamental relationship between yin and yang on a spiritual level. As far as soul work related to career, I see this related to the zhi because it is as Kaptchuk put it the synthesis of heaven's will (left kidney) and the individual will (right kidney). I also rather like Lonnie Jarret's translation of ming men as gate of destiny and have found such interpretation clinically useful even if it is a bit romanticized. Ayurvedic medicine has a nice spin I have found clinically relevant. They divide life into four objectives: relationship, livelihood, material sustenance, and liberation respectively they are arta, dharma, kama and moksha. I have found one or more of these four features at the root of almost every chronic difficult to treat condition. They seem to drive the other behaviors that cause diseases to manifest. So, in this system, right livelihood is potentially at the root of a significant amount of disease conditions. The definition of Dharma is illustrated in a story from the Upanishada. A sage was once sitting next to a river bank and a scorpion fell in the water. The sage picked it up and placed it on dry land. In the process the scorpion bit the sage's hand. Later on the scorpion fell in the water once again. Once again the sage picked it up from the water and placed it on dry land. Noticing this, one of his disciples asked the sage why he repeatedly saved the life of the scorpion even though it bit him. The sage replied: "It is the dharma of the scorpion to bite. It is my dharma to save lives. That is why it bit my hand. And that is why I saved its life." Best regards, Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 PS. I question your assumption that most on this list have some form of personal cultivation. That's what I was trying to find out a while back when I asked about it. Ken - Refer to my earlier post about the four objectives of life from Ayurveda. Consider also Jung's theorem's about fundamental human urges towards spirituality that are the near equivalent of Freud's theorems about human sexuality. On these bases, I would be surprised to find people on this list without special forms of cultivation. IMO, your questioning suggests an assumption that doesn't esteem your colleagues well. And lastly, cultivation is a deeply personal subject. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Judaism has a slightly different spin on the idea of destiny. I looks at mankind as being predestined towards a certain fate, but that we, unlike animals have the potential to direct and focus our tendancies to constructive of destructive ends. An example that is given is that a person born under the sign of blood can either be a murderer, or (to apply the principle to medicine) could be a surgeon. In other words, we have a powerful responsibility to ourselves (and for that matter as a vessels involved in refining and healing globally) to view our strengths and weaknesses, and channel our energies to where they can most constructively be applied. When we find our way, it will provide immense personal gratification. But, we most introspect and be honest with ourselves first. BTW,as an aside, it think that it is interesting that the term in Hebrew for the highest aspect of the soul is " neshama " . Similar to shen, no? Best wishes, Yehuda Frischman LA ______________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Will, > Refer to my earlier post about the four objectives of life from Ayurveda. > Consider also Jung's theorem's about fundamental human urges towards spirituality > that are the near equivalent of Freud's theorems about human sexuality. On > these bases, I would be surprised to find people on this list without special > forms of cultivation. IMO, your questioning suggests an assumption that doesn't > esteem your colleagues well. And lastly, cultivation is a deeply personal > subject. My question was and is just that a question. I don't share what seems to be your opinion that life itself is a form of self-cultivation. My understanding of self-cultivation in the sense that it is used in works like Da Xue (from which I quoted yesterday) is that it goes more or less opposite to the natural way of things. Naturally, people are born, develop, mature, age, and die. This is the way of nature. Self-cultivation in the sense in which I have come to understand it in the context of Chinese medicine and the surrounding cultural set, implies an effort to reverse this natural tendency and to lengthen life and maintain youth. All I can say about my esteemed colleagues is that I really have no idea what they are doing with respect to the apprehension, understanding and incorporation of such traditional Chinese notions in their lives, study, and work. That's why I asked. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: > Self-cultivation in > the sense in which I have come to > understand it in the context of Chinese > medicine and the surrounding cultural > set, implies an effort to reverse this > natural tendency and to lengthen life > and maintain youth. > > All I can say about my esteemed colleagues > is that I really have no idea what they > are doing with respect to the apprehension, > understanding and incorporation of such > traditional Chinese notions in their lives, > study, and work. > > That's why I asked. > > Ken Well, Ken, I suppose my form of cultivation is playing with my 7-month-old son. I know the books say I should be taking his urine in decoction, but I figure hanging out with him as much as possible is an adequate substitute. So, do I qualify? Or does it have to be something more " Chinese " ? robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Robert, > > Well, Ken, > > I suppose my form of cultivation is playing with my 7-month-old son. > I know the books say I should be taking his urine in decoction, but I > figure hanging out with him as much as possible is an adequate > substitute. > > So, do I qualify? Or does it have to be something more " Chinese " ? Gee, too bad, if he were six months old you could qualify and receive the special Ginzu knife with your certificate! Actually, however, I'm not qualified to be qualifying you. My own urine drinking certificate has, unfortunately, lapsed. Darn, it really is too bad we have to call it Chinese medicine. Maybe we could just change the name to Cool Medicine. Then we wouldn't have to change the lettering. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: > > Darn, it really is too bad we have to > call it Chinese medicine. > > Maybe we could just change the name to > Cool Medicine. Then we wouldn't have > to change the lettering. > > Ken How about Totally Cool Medicine! Really, though, I'm interested in why you seem to think that cultivation should be so narrowly defined as a set of practices specifically bound to Chinese culture. I'm with you on the Medical Chinese language, but it seems to me that anyserious undertaking which allows our qi to remain unconstrained could be thought of as cultivation. See Mark Seems' thoughts on riding horses in Acupuncture Physical Medicine for an example of this. My feeling that keeping CM so narrowly culture bound will result in its demise as a viable medical system in the west. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Robert, Totally Cool Medicine sounds totally cool to me. I do not think that " cultivation " should be defined narrowly...or broadly...or any way at all. All I've done is ask a couple of questions and post a couple of quotations. I don't have any agenda regarding how to define anything. I do think that if people are going to tell other people that they are practicing Chinese medicine they should have some familiarity with how Chinese medicine has been defined in the past before and as an absolute prerequisite to how they might want to change that definition in the present and for the future. I believe that I have clearly outlined my concerns on these points in my published work and here on CHA. Chinese medicine is a cultural phenomenon, rather a set of cultural phenomena. If we want to understand and use it, we should be versed in the cultural milieu from which it arises. My questions about cultivation relates to the study and understanding of this cultural milieu. I'll restate it: Can one effectively study Chinese medical theory if one does not understand what the various practices of self-cultivation were in which those who originated and transmitted that theory over the centuries engaged? Nothing about this question suggests that anyone cannot engage in any sort of practice that one chooses. But it seems to me that there are certain key issues involved, one of them being qi. How do we understand what qi is? It's really just a question. Ken > > How about Totally Cool Medicine! > > Really, though, I'm interested in why you seem to think that > cultivation should be so narrowly defined as a set of practices > specifically bound to Chinese culture. I'm with you on the Medical > Chinese language, but it seems to me that anyserious undertaking > which allows our qi to remain unconstrained could be thought of as > cultivation. See Mark Seems' thoughts on riding horses in Acupuncture > Physical Medicine for an example of this. > > My feeling that keeping CM so narrowly culture bound will result in > its demise as a viable medical system in the west. > > robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 How do we understand what qi is? It's really just a question. Ken Ken, I am sure I am being rather naïve with this response............but I feel that the first step to understanding what qi is involves accepting that it exists at all. Then we can actively seek it out and try to understand it via it’s manifestation in our everyday lives. After all, isn’t qi expressed in everything? Perhaps the first step involves simple faith, and then we open the door to gradual insight and understanding of qi by actively observing and experiencing it in our everyday lives. Once we develop an awareness of it........it can open the door for its active and conscious cultivation through traditional Chinese practices such as qi gong, tai ji, ba gua, calligraphy etc. or more western activities undertaken with an awareness and conscious goal of feeling, cultivating and moving with our qi and that which surrounds us. Just as a additional note......I asked a Chinese friend of mine this very question. She is not a practitioner of medicine or student of any martial art. Her response was that it is just a word that means “angry or oxygen”. I asked...... is that all in means to you? Her response was a simple “yeah”. This is not dissimilar to the type of response common from your average westerner who often responds with something in the order of “isn’t that some new age idea?”. This says to me that awareness or acceptance of it as something more meaningful than just a word or a largely ethereal, “new age” concept is the all important first step in any culture for an individual to begin its cultivation. Perhaps this is not the type of response you were after........just some initial thoughts from a beginner..... I am sure I would have more to say when I get to reading your book on the subject. It is on my list;-) Sincerely, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Steve, I very much appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I can't say that you'll understand what qi is after reading A Brief History of Qi, but you should have a better understanding of what the Chinese have thought qi is for the past few thousand years. I'd be interested to know if that's true for you once you've had a chance to read it. Thanks, Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 --- > > Can one effectively study Chinese > medical theory if one does not > understand what the various practices > of self-cultivation were in which > those who originated and transmitted > that theory over the centuries engaged? > ken, how can you possibly answer a question like this? Your just being a trickster. Those who originated and transmitted chinese medicine through the ages have been so multi-variant in orientation and in contribution, how much can we really say about it at this point. I think what studying chinese history, philosophy and religion does for a student, is it inspires and gives one's own place and influence in time an added meaning. Why does the skilled practice of medicine need to be dependent on the knowledge of it's history? It seems like it certainly couldn't hurt and is indeed the truest path, but how does a lack of self-cultivation theory lead to a lack of effective learning? matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Ken, So now I'm glad you asked "what's soul?", and I'm glad to have been crazy and compelled enough to answer it. I'm glad you questioned my assumptions. Sounds like Disraeli Gears ... I'm glad, I'm glad, I'm glad. One of the best and, at times, funniest threads of recent times. I needed some end-of-the-week humor. Emmanuel Segmen - kenrose2008 Thursday, July 17, 2003 7:21 PM Re: Soul work/career work Steve,I very much appreciate your thoughtson the matter. I can't say that you'llunderstand what qi is after readingA Brief History of Qi, but you shouldhave a better understanding of whatthe Chinese have thought qi is forthe past few thousand years.I'd be interested to know if that'strue for you once you've had a chanceto read it.Thanks,KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Ken Rose wrote: Chinese medicine isa cultural phenomenon, rather aset of cultural phenomena. Ifwe want to understand and use it,we should be versed in the culturalmilieu from which it arises.My questions about cultivation relatesto the study and understanding ofthis cultural milieu.I'll restate it:Can one effectively study Chinesemedical theory if one does notunderstand what the various practicesof self-cultivation were in whichthose who originated and transmittedthat theory over the centuries engaged?Ken, Thank you for restating the question. I like the further iteration. Originally I responded to: what is soul? My thoughts regarding the cultivation of one's horizontal and vertical heredities have been taken far afield and back again. I still adhere to the nature of soul as a clear vision and disciplined and unwavering effort at seeing the real longitude and latitude of each moment. I still adhere to the notion that knowing the "soul" of oneself or the soul of a culture, you must attend to all that you've stated regarding language, customs and all that make up the longitudinal heredity. You must also attend to the art, music, forms of meditation and all that make up the vertical (or spiritual) heredity. We've discussed this many times on CHA since I've been posting, yet this iteration seems to be more encompassing that previous ones. For me, to "see" the soul of oneself, it is one's own project of attending to the many horizontal and vertical axes of cultural practice as well as the genuine and directed "yearning" as the artist or the spiritual adept. You've made the case well that CM is a cultural phenomenon that embodies the soul of a culture. So it's natural that you direct us on list to look at language and historical practices as well as the "vertical" practices that might put us in touch with the experience of Qi. The practitioners of merit that I know of personally are quite few, yet the best among them have been known as Qi masters based partly on how they acquired their training and their required internal cultivation. These are my partially formed thoughts for the moment. Oddly, while writing this post, my thoughts were intersected by two phenomena that anyone familiar with the Chinese community in San Francisco knows very well. If you go to a bakery like Sheng Kee (formerly from Taiwan), you will see and taste the usual treats like moon cakes. But you will also see their elaborate and labor intensive versions of Western style pastries and cakes. You might expect the cake or napoleon to taste as rich and sweet as a Western version, but instead they are amazingly light and hardly sweet at all by comparison. Another strange phenomenon are the Italian style restaurants operated by Chinese families and mostly patronized by Chinese families. Most Westerners might not recognize the lightly sauced pastas of these restaurants. It's just interesting to me that the Chinese bakers and pasta makers emulate Western styled foods but always retain a Chinese "edge" or "soul". Just another partially formed thought for the moment. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 ken, how can you possibly answer a question like this? Your just being a trickster. Those who originated and transmitted chinese medicine through the ages have been so multi-variant in orientation and in contribution, how much can we really say about it at this point. I think what studying chinese history, philosophy and religion does for a student, is it inspires and gives one's own place and influence in time an added meaning. Why does the skilled practice of medicine need to be dependent on the knowledge of it's history? It seems like it certainly couldn't hurt and is indeed the truest path, but how does a lack of self-cultivation theory lead to a lack of effective learning? matt Matt, Did you notice how you asked the last question? You asked it as a student. Not as a practitioner. I believe that's the answer. Self-cultivation may indeed make us better learners. But also self-cultivation makes us carry out what ever must be accomplished in the moment as practitioners of our art ... or medical practice. Emmanuel Segmen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Good question, Matt. Good answer Emmanuel. I have another perspective to offer. What if the practice of self-cultivation according to various ideas and principles puts a certain spin on the ball that imparts particular meanings, and particularly shades of meaning, to the words and phrases that make up the terms and texts? When reading through ancient texts with Chinese teachers, students, colleagues, and anyone who is familiar with the literary traditions, I am always amazed to discover that a single character can be an emblem for an entire body of knowledge. This is true of major terms like " dao4 " as in Laozi's dao4 or Kongzi's dao4 etc. in which knowing the author and the historical context allows one to understand what shades of meaning one should properly bring to the reading of this one word. It is also true of countless other terms, large and small. It has always seemed to me that the transmission of the literary and oral traditions in traditional China were a hand and glove type of proposition. Far from being competing or conflicting experiences, the reading of written texts and the receiving of oral teachings seem to have been intricately interwoven throughout the course of a life's education. Add the seasoning that accompaines various kinds of " self-cultivation " and you begin to see the complex dynamics and interactions that take place between these different threads from which the manifest tapestry of traditional Chinese knowledge is woven. So what happens when we start to unravel it, in order to make more well suited to our own needs and wants and to make it consumable by those whose strengths and weaknesses differ substantially from the characteristics of those who have created it continually through a process of unrelenting change over a period of more than 2,000 years? That's what I'm talking about. Keep in mind that terms like qi gong are relatively recent phenomena in China. Prior to the 1920's or thereabouts there was no such use of the term as we now take for granted. This does not mean that there was no qi gong prior to this time. It means that the cultural status of a wide range of practices was somewhat different. It's another quite complicated matter and it is briefly discussed in chapter 5 of A Brief History of Qi. But all things are not equal. All men are not created equal. The Chinese are progressive thinkers. In fact, I can make a strong case to support the position that among all of the various identities of groups of human beings of which we currently know, the Chinese stand in the highest position with respect to the generation of progress and thus the progressive thinking that underlies and motivates progress. And here I mean real, humane progress, not the highspeed development of very questionable technologies that threaten to wipe human beings from the face of the earth. There are reasons why progress progressed in China quite differently than in the West. Needham and others have addressed these reasons, but there remains a great deal to be discovered, I believe. Do you think that without qi cultivation of the sort that is described in various sources, old and new, that in days gone by the points of view and perspectives on existence that underlie the theories and methods of Chinese medicine would have come into existence? Again, just a question. But while we're at it...asking questions that is...if it was important in the past is there any reason why it is less important now? And Matt, I'm far more interested in questions than in answers. So the fact that I ask questions that are hard if not impossible to answer is a given. For me, a good question is one that results in cascades of further questions. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Emmanuel, Me, too. I'm glad about the whole operation. Hell, I'm even glad about yelling at Todd. Sorry, Todd. It's true. I am happy to yell at you. But it doesn't mean that I don't love you and appreciate your hard work. I just get worked up from time to time. And I'm always glad to know that what we do here generates some humor, as well as all the heat and maybe light from time to time. Ken , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Ken, > > So now I'm glad you asked " what's soul? " , and I'm glad to have been crazy and compelled enough to answer it. I'm glad you questioned my assumptions. Sounds like Disraeli Gears ... I'm glad, I'm glad, I'm glad. > > One of the best and, at times, funniest threads of recent times. I needed some end-of-the-week humor. > > Emmanuel Segmen > - > kenrose2008 > > Thursday, July 17, 2003 7:21 PM > Re: Soul work/career work > > > Steve, > > I very much appreciate your thoughts > on the matter. I can't say that you'll > understand what qi is after reading > A Brief History of Qi, but you should > have a better understanding of what > the Chinese have thought qi is for > the past few thousand years. > > I'd be interested to know if that's > true for you once you've had a chance > to read it. > > Thanks, > > Ken > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Ken Rose wrote: What if the practice of self-cultivationaccording to various ideas and principlesputs a certain spin on the ball thatimparts particular meanings, and particularlyshades of meaning, to the words and phrasesthat make up the terms and texts?When reading through ancient texts withChinese teachers, students, colleagues,and anyone who is familiar with theliterary traditions, I am always amazedto discover that a single character canbe an emblem for an entire body of knowledge.Ken, This is it precisely. I hope you'll indulge a long but I hope not tedious post. My first tradition was Sufi meditation and the loving investment of time and finesse into poets like Rumi. Without experiencing the practices, Rumi's poetry has considerably less impact. With the practices, his poetry is shattering. And yes, language matters. In Sufism, sound itself matters. Such is the case with other oral traditions I've pursued. My experience of other traditions since then has been quite similar. Now my experiences of qi gong, tai chi and my limited use of CM and taoist theory to query my own Western sciences has also had exquisitely shattering results. A subtext for my interest in CM has been its origins in oral traditions, though it's written tradition is also vast. It's pursuing people who have oral tradition training such as Michael Broffman, Nam Singh and Dr. Ping Qi Kang that compel my interests and also inform my instincts regarding the roots of CM and how to apply those informed instincts regarding my own sciences and the teaching of those sciences. More importantly, and you might appreciate this, Ken, is that Taoist traditions and practices now have come full circle for me. I won't bore you with too many details, but in 1978 I observed a Hopi Indian ritual with much spoken mantra. I happened to be familiar with that spoken mantra has they had been given to me as practices on various Sufi retreats. The oral tradition of derivation of the Sufi practices was Persian. Yet here were these Hopi practitioners using the precise and profoundly difficult intonations of my own practices that it takes years to learn. After an evening of questioning and mutual surprise on the part of both Hopi practitioners and myself, I learned that the sense of their practices were identical to my own right down to internal visualizations. Another shattering event. Skipping forward a decade, my wife is a senior practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism under Gyatrul Rinpoche, and I've experienced similar sensibilities with regard to our understandings of our teachings and practices. We occasionally shock each other by being guides to one another's practices. In the past decade I've been seeing the circle between my original practices and Taoist traditions tighten. What I currently learn from Nam Singh is sort of a graduate seminar in my ever evolving understanding of Sufism. This is no surprise to Nam. We often discuss the common origins of oral traditions ... not that they are literally common in time and place. His teacher Liu Ming is moving to Oakland this month. I look forward with great anticipation to hearing Liu Ming's teaching from an ancient text ... that has never been written. I'll stop here before I drive you to distraction. You must, however, take in a Liu Ming event during one of your visits. I believe you would enjoy his presentation ... as well as his sense of language and historical nuance with regard to ancient Chinese history. Indeed, cascades of questions can keep your sails trimmed. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Actually, 'I'm glad' is from " I'm So Glad " on Fresh Cream, written by blues great Skip James. Still one of my favorite bands, Cream. On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 08:16 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > Sounds like Disraeli Gears ... I'm glad, I'm glad, I'm glad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Emmanual, I glad you that you mentioned Liu Ming. I hope that you have the oppurtunity to study with him. He has been one of my most importatant teachers for the past 10 yrs. I was from his teachings that i gleaned the notions of fate and freedom that i mentioned in a previous post. i saw some parrellel to you notions of vertical/horizontal. I called vertical fate, which has some relationship to lineage. (there's a loaded term). In any case i was disappointed not to recieve a response. perhaps you didn't see the parrellel. or maybe it was too uncool of me to call the list cool. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Z'ev, From soul to blues ... clearly the oral tradition is alive and well in the U.S. Emmanuel Segmen Actually, 'I'm glad' is from "I'm So Glad" on Fresh Cream, written by blues great Skip James.Still one of my favorite bands, Cream.On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 08:16 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: Sounds like Disraeli Gears ... I'm glad, I'm glad, I'm glad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Dean, I am indeed overd this summer. I'm actually posting all that I write and read about just now. Normally I post less than a quarter of the things that I write. I hope you will forgive me for overlooking your comments at this time. I do manage to at least glance at nearly every post on CHA. Somewhere in mid to late August I'll come back into form. First Z'ev and I and then Ken and I will be performing duets at local tea houses in parts of August. Please join up if you'll be around. Liu Ming, indeed! That means you'll be visiting Oakland CA since Liu Ming will officially be stationed in Oakland from this month forward. Word on the street is that Liu Ming and Nam Singh will be starting a formal school of taoist nutrition and cooking. Stay tuned for that one. I'm glad you're tuned into Liu Ming. He's the guy that's so into oral tradition that he teaches from texts that have never been written. I love it! Emmanuel Segmen Emmanual, I glad you that you mentioned Liu Ming. I hope that you have the oppurtunity to study with him. He has been one of my most importatant teachers for the past 10 yrs. I was from his teachings that i gleaned the notions of fate and freedom that i mentioned in a previous post. i saw some parrellel to you notions of vertical/horizontal. I called vertical fate, which has some relationship to lineage. (there's a loaded term). In any case i was disappointed not to recieve a response. perhaps you didn't see the parrellel. or maybe it was too uncool of me to call the list cool. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Hi, Dean, I found your post. Thank you. ES Dean Militello wrote: Thanks Emmanuel, by taking "one more step" you've landed in a fertile terrian for discussion of medicine. I understand the "longitudinal heredity" to be fate, and the "vertical" to be freedom. I wonder is it possible to position oneself anywhere else? Yes, it's quite possible to be out of balance, out of synchronicity and out of the flow (or without flow - stasis). I believe that's what you are treating in your patients. Regarding fate and freedom, that puts the individual at the very center of the universe. That might be a bit too much for any of us to handle. That's perhaps too personal a view to be helpful in arriving at a clear vision. It's cleaner to just view it more impersonally in terms of direction. ES Isn't it that when we diagnose and treat patients that we enter into that patients own "intersection"? We could say that the notion of diagnosis itself is a notion of fate, a clearly establish pattern, a momentum, and treatment seems to imply freedom. to think in these terms expands my notion of what i'm doing (when i bill 97801). Sinc, Dean Again (it seems to me) fate and freedom evokes something too specific and far less than the objective situation. But if that works for you, go with it. It's a place to start. I agree that it's helpful to affirm a patient's (or student's) position within the longitudinal and vertical axes of their life. In most cases the patient is the healer and the practitioner is the midwife. The patient controls the lifestyle and intention. The physician (or instructor) can only guide, encourage or occasionally inspire. You "intervene" only when they are a danger to themselves or others ... a hopefully rare situation. Dealing with it was what makes you a physician (or teacher), and it's why you get paid the big dollars. ;-) Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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