Guest guest Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Compassion? IS IT REAL IF IT DOES NOT AIM TO AID THE POOR THOSE IN NEED? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Marco, , " Marco " <bergh@i...> wrote: > Compassion? > > > > IS IT REAL IF IT DOES NOT AIM TO AID THE POOR THOSE IN NEED? Good to hear from you. How are things going? Sun Si Miao was clear and adamant in stating that a doctor must be compassionate and treat any and all who need care without consideration of their ability to pay. As a practical matter, I believe that one of the great potential strengths of Chinese medicine lies in its application in addressing public health challenges in impoverished parts of the world. True compassion would not only aim to aid but actually treat the poor and those in need, regardless of their economic conditions. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: > Marco, > > , " Marco " <bergh@i...> > wrote: > > Compassion? > > > > IS IT REAL IF IT DOES NOT AIM TO AID THE POOR THOSE IN NEED? Marco, I often think about these kinds of things. Maybe i'm just young and thus blissfully naive, but i feel as if this kind of focus is in many ways where the practice of acupuncture is expecially so useful. Wasn't acupuncture in many ways re-popularized during the sino- japanese war, when many soldiers and everyday people were desperately in need of such a mobile and efficient form of treating trauma. From my own understanding, this in many ways catalyzed a newly born re- interest and trust in acupuncture in China. Acupuncture for a long period of time was largely looked upon as somewhat dangerous and inferior to herbal treatment in the public eye; until the changing times however invoked a real need for it. Needles are very relatively inexpensive and yet quite powerful tools for many conditions. In many ways, schools in the west provide a niche for the poor,the youth and anyone a little cash-challenged. They have clinics that function for low-cost payements. In areas where there are not clinics, one's could be formed most feasibly with a collective of doc's contributing some of their time for little or no pay. There certainly needs to be more low-cost healthcare. I read a story in adbusters about a nineteen year old girl narrating how she felt as stared into a bloody sink, with wrench in her hand, tears coming down her cheek....with a tooth only half pulled. She couldn't afford to go to the dentist. Much of the population of young people are most always without any kind of health insurance these days. Working shitty jobs with no benefits, many without educations..... they certaintly sometimes fit in a lowly societal space. We all need to sometimes make great sacrifices in order to truly reap the good wealth. all we can do is hope for is alien intervention at this point. well, hopefully not. matt > > Good to hear from you. How are things > going? > > Sun Si Miao was clear and adamant in > stating that a doctor must be compassionate > and treat any and all who need care > without consideration of their ability > to pay. > > As a practical matter, I believe that > one of the great potential strengths > of Chinese medicine lies in its application > in addressing public health challenges > in impoverished parts of the world. > > True compassion would not only aim > to aid but actually treat the > poor and those in need, regardless > of their economic conditions. > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 , " facteau8 " <facteau8> wrote: > , " kenrose2008 " > <kenrose2008> wrote: > > Marco, > > > > , " Marco " <bergh@i...> > > wrote: > > > Compassion? > > > > > > > > IS IT REAL IF IT DOES NOT AIM TO AID THE POOR THOSE IN NEED? > > > My mom was recently in Guatamela with the " Doctors without Borders " group. People would walk for miles and miles from rural areas to seek medical attention. Many people were terribly afflicted with parasites and dental problems. One woman had some sort of worm that would actually protude from her belly button and in others you could sometimes see small worms dart from the corner of their eye sockets. Mostly many have them suffered from terrible abdominal pain and G.I.complaints. One young girl had to take over the role of the mother, after her own mother had died giving childbirth and her father had left long ago. she was probably 14 and had brought the newborn for medical treatment and to figure out how to care for it. While so much of this was so sad, the children balanced it all. For them it was christmas. Getting some stickers and a toothbrush brought the biggest light to their eyes. According to her, many of these peoples only access to medical care comes twice a year with these kind of trips. She also encountered much lack of basic education concerning childbirth and such matters. Men would talk of tying the placenta to a tree, so that it didn't try to get back inside the mother after birth. They held cpr classes for fireman in child c.p.r., which was new to most all of them. This was all very distinct from the elite culture in Guatemela who all mostly have access to good medicine. Poverty brings much disease. What is your experience with much of this? thanks for your post, matt > Marco, > I often think about these kinds of things. Maybe i'm just young > and thus blissfully naive, but i feel as if this kind of focus is in > many ways where the practice of acupuncture is expecially so useful. > Wasn't acupuncture in many ways re-popularized during the sino- > japanese war, when many soldiers and everyday people were desperately > in need of such a mobile and efficient form of treating trauma. From > my own understanding, this in many ways catalyzed a newly born re- > interest and trust in acupuncture in China. Acupuncture for a long > period of time was largely looked upon as somewhat dangerous and > inferior to herbal treatment in the public eye; until the changing > times however invoked a real need for it. > Needles are very relatively inexpensive and yet quite powerful > tools for many conditions. In many ways, schools in the west provide > a niche for the poor,the youth and anyone a little cash- challenged. > They have clinics that function for low-cost payements. In areas > where there are not clinics, one's could be formed most feasibly with > a collective of doc's contributing some of their time for little or > no pay. There certainly needs to be more low-cost healthcare. > I read a story in adbusters about a nineteen year old girl > narrating how she felt as stared into a bloody sink, with wrench in > her hand, tears coming down her cheek....with a tooth only half > pulled. She couldn't afford to go to the dentist. Much of the > population of young people are most always without any kind of health > insurance these days. Working shitty jobs with no benefits, many > without educations..... they certaintly sometimes fit in a lowly > societal space. > We all need to sometimes make great sacrifices in order to truly > reap the good wealth. > all we can do is hope for is alien intervention at this point. > well, > hopefully not. > > matt > > > > > > > Good to hear from you. How are things > > going? > > > > Sun Si Miao was clear and adamant in > > stating that a doctor must be compassionate > > and treat any and all who need care > > without consideration of their ability > > to pay. > > > > As a practical matter, I believe that > > one of the great potential strengths > > of Chinese medicine lies in its application > > in addressing public health challenges > > in impoverished parts of the world. > > > > True compassion would not only aim > > to aid but actually treat the > > poor and those in need, regardless > > of their economic conditions. > > > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Dear Ken and Matt, Ken: Good to hear from you. How are things going? Marco: So so... I am concern that due to personality I am " slow " by nature and not very organized but.... However, I voluntary (there is basically no funding, although I do not agree with a system of volunteering) in a hospital on Wednesdays mornings 6 hours. Due to a friend of mind a western doctor from Guatemala whom if she was so not emotionally disturbed ( sexual child abuse, father murdered due to being revolutionary, he was not the disturbed abuser), would accomplished attunement between heaven and earth (maybe another way of reflecting upon Emanuel's Sufi expression). However she does not " accept " treatment yet so I am thinking of incorporating meditative practices with her whenever we work together. She basically helped me in being allowed to work at the hospital. I have far to many patients and to little time and she is planning on more patients. I often read the list and feel ashamed with regard to studies and qualifications and so forth because here in Guatemala people insist that I am a doctor of Chinese medicine my friend got me in at the hospital after showing my credentials (which formally was studying at one of those treachery places both to Chinese medicine and the students i.e. the objective of the school was certainly not the formation of skilled practitioners but that is the past..., then I worked five years in NHS environment in London...), and my capabilities in any branch of Chinese medicine are anything but highly skilled. I used to buy books back in London every moth after pay day and after spending a complete week end in the books shop only resting for lunch and sometimes dinner break. However these days books are a precious medium to furthering of my dreams and aspirations. I feel it is a ashamed that people here do not know what real Chinese doctors are like you and others on this list... (I am using the term as highly skilled practitioner of an education healing art), because it means that we have so much work to do in Guatemala to be able to promote Chinese medicine on a public health level whilst staying true to those treated and Chinese medicine. Although buying books once a month is no longer with the times, I agree that if resources permitted one do best in at least two unread books a month that is why I declined the opportunity to visit Sweden and England this winter so that way I can and will invest in books come December:-) At this point must thank Bob Felt and you may not believe me but I felt like crying when the donation of books arrived from paradigm I am forever grateful and one day if you or anyone was to visit Guatemala in due time you hopefully see people using tennis balls for health cultivation:-) The help made me think that: The feeling of loneliness is only temporary and information knowledge can be further... Hence one day others can practice ... Thanks to Paradigm! And Todd I unfortunately can not open the pdf's file but really thanks anyway... I also feel what a marvel the internet and this list because one is reminded to study practice study practice study... At the hospital I am contemplating how one can due some sort of monitoring? Any suggestions and or knowledge about questioners? Any suggestions as to treat ulcers according to the logistic of Chinese medicine with out the Chinese herbs they are not currently available are still welcome, and thanks very much Matt Ferguson for the comment of honey. We use it and it helps on some ulcers (any acumoxa logistics?) I am thinking out load that maybe a form of food diet could help rice soup combinations? Ken : Sun Si Miao was clear and adamant in stating that a doctor must be compassionate and treat any and all who need care without consideration of their ability to pay. Marco: I work voluntary also in zone 18 where I hurry away from before 2-3 Sunday afternoon because although I fantasize of being true to such statements as above I am a coward hence I work there only in the mornings to try to treat people and more importantly try to teach some " form " of Chinese medicine we are currently focusing on " Tui Nai " and tennis ball's:-) It is a struggle because people are not used to study I am not really a teacher and so forth but the youth organization and although being born out of the catholic church are very keen and kind and open to Chinese medicine. We also focus on some sort of qi gong and I anything to develop Tai Chi Chuan with self massage and combination of diet for health according to what I currently understand of Chinese medicine and very much agree with Ken when he states that Chinese medicine has much to offer public health (social health-individual-family health and so on...) I treat only two days a week for free because although one ought to treat everyone I apart from books and air need to eat... from home treat we have two rooms and a hall that really is a room then when i am " ready " will hire a place but really where my heart is not in privet practice but a dream of full time dedication to community health... Although privet practice is a challenge as all things. It challenge me in " accepting " military personnel (which I have failed in doing) since one can not chose there patients and not many but a few have been in the army; and in theory think that I treat them the same as other but... Was it not also Sun Si Miao whom said something that one should treat friend and enemy alike (not pay attention to such things) The majority however of the privet patients are people " interested " in Chinese medicine and then after that members or former members of the National resistance movement in Guatemala. Here must ask for help what does one do if it so happen that one is weak minded. Of course i do not cry in font of the patients but apart from whish one could do more (by reading and studying and practicing more... how to treat victims of torture and war crimes repression by the Guatemalan state and there allies, no offence any one). I can not help to feel anger an sadness at the inhuman suffering and repression that the native Americans are still suffering, not just in Guatemala (yes Maya people are native Americans if on was to know the historical term of America...) Is this a problem with my heart channel? I have patients that although there family members been killed by the army they can not cry is that also a heart channel problem? Of course I aspire to practice knowing practice from the four examinations and pattern identification treatment determination but... Hence often " meditate " upon the above said by Sun Si Miao but still far from realizing such a goal... Ken: > As a practical matter, I believe that > one of the great potential strengths > of Chinese medicine lies in its application > in addressing public health challenges > in impoverished parts of the world. Marco: Could not agree more! Ken: True compassion would not only aim to aid but actually treat the poor and those in need, regardless of their economic conditions. Marco: I still do not know what compassion (but think its interrelated to self cultivation and Chinese medicine seam like an optimum medium to develop the two if one wanted too) actually entails and if I was not so slow and more strong I probably would not just spend two days a week trying to treat besides one need to earn a living and less someone has a good idea how to find people organizations that find funds this will be the set up for a while to come. As for funding (just for a laugh) if 1000 us dollars a month was possible that would be seen as an " acceptable " wage in Guatemala and I would work full time (out side of privet practice) for 387 us dollars a month (excluding the possibility to buy a book once a moth:-( so just by the way any fund raiser out there? So thanks for asking and I feel lonely but thinking about the potential that chinese medicine possible can contribute to Guatemala warms my heart. Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 --- > > In Guatemala to my surprise acupuncture was used by the Guerilla army of the > poor and the armed peoples resistance organizations. They used of course a > rudimentary form needling to reduce pain but a friend has relied his > experience and it makes one think. Apparently someone from USA went to the > mountains via Mexico to help the people and she though the resistance > medical staff some basic acupuncture. Or was it possibly assimilated from highland mayan influences? Have you seen the book " Wind in the Blood " . It's author is interested in showing many of the parallels between mayan medicine and at least very rudimentery conceptions of chinese medicine. They seem to use a sort of primitive acupuncture system. Aren't highland mayans involved in the resistance? > > > Marco: > > Agree but here in Guatemala needles and moxa are absurdly expensive as those > whom import has definitely not understood the aim of medicine. however if > you or any one else have ideas? Can't you order them from the U.S. or China. > (currently > the western medical students are obliged to finishes 6 moths in rural > health care practice and six moths in urban healthcare setting in a public > health setting) community orientated health care practice... This would be a great way to establish compassion and humbleness in acupuncturists. There's also the fact that western doctors are not allowed to make money on their drugs by law. Herbs are often times much too taxed. > > If any one know of a school that would want to develop a program of > cooperation in years to come would be fun to develop the idea... your best luck will probably be in a grassroots style fashion. > > > > I wait with great joy for you to join us for sometime in Guatemala:- ) hmm.. i do plan on eventually getting down there. A side interest of mine for some time has been Mayan studies and i've always wanted to go to Palenque, the Yucatan and possibly the highlands of guatemela. I don't know any spanish though and right now chinese is my long term goal. Where do you run a clinic? > > Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Marco, There may well be a problem with your heart channel, and I suspect that you are going to die. But not today. Thanks for the update on what's going on in Guatemala. I'm going to be in the States for a brief spell next month and maybe September. Maybe I can carve out some time to come down there and see what you're up to. Contact me off the list and let's talk about it. I also need to set the record straight. I am not a doctor. I am a student. I write and teach mainly because Cheng Man Ching said that not to teach what one knows loses the dao. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Marco, Thank you for working so hard to promote TCM in your part of the world. It is a wonderful system that is well-suited to treat many people for very little money, especially if we can promote the lifestyle and diet that comes along with it. Xinku ni le! For your ulcer patients, as far as foods or nutrients are concerned, there are some natural remedies available almost anywhere in the world. For example, raw cabbage juice has been used and is well-documented for treating peptic ulcers. Have pt drink 1 liter per day of fresh juice, sipped throughout the day, for ten days. Since it seems that the high glutamine content in cabbage juice is responsible for its efficacy, you may be able to find glutamine in powder-form and use that instead. Also, aloe vera, evening primrose oil (EPO), and ground flaxseeds have healing properties due to various components and mechanisms. Others may be harder to find where you are, so these may be of some help, of course, in conjunction with a health-promoting diet. Monitor, and advise pts concerning intake of fried foods, coffee, alcohol, and other irritants. Good luck, and continue on your path, for the sake of all of us, Daniel C. Luthi >>Any suggestions as to treat ulcers according to the logistic of Chinese medicine with out the Chinese herbs they are not currently available are still welcome, and thanks very much Matt Ferguson for the comment of honey. We use it and it helps on some ulcers (any acumoxa logistics?) I am thinking out load that maybe a form of food diet could help rice soup combinations?<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Dear Daniel, Good morning... (thanks for the info) I meant skin ulcers, and what I am thinking is: If I can borrow a camera from someone here in Guatemala which should not be to difficult we could take pictures and send them to Todd and if he does not deem them to inappropriate for the list he could post them on the list. They all look different really mainly due to " bed sores " in the hospital and probably intervention by surgery on a background of a very debilitated person. If we could find some way apart from honey (topical) to treat and speed up healing of skin ulcers it would be a great for the patients and also for the hospital in being able to take in new piatians (yes I am but young at heart " naive " )... For example someone named Robert or Robin in Beijing (I think posted a really interesting letter about a Chinese doctor in China whom treats nearly exclusively with acumoxa, or only acupuncture?) Have you (that posted the letter about " 6 channels " and acupuncture seen healing of skin ulcers, in the clinic? What I am looking for is encouraging experience and logistic... How many times a week (although I am just there 2 days a week but...) Tendencies of disease(ies)western; dis-ease(ies), Pattern(s) Chinese needle method point combination (as a basis for point prescription which of course is not immutable) Tui nai method Plant medicine Qi gong or visualisations Any information might be what mobilises the qi to heal... If one needs to treat every day I shall to organise my self to be there every day or someone mention in a earlier letter they wanted somewhere to volunteer well between you and I (think this was on another list) we could share the joy of administrating acumoxa-Chinese medicine... Anyway Daniel thanks for your kind letter... Marco (in Guatemala:-) - " Daniel " <solothurner Friday, July 18, 2003 10:51 PM Re: Addendum > Marco, > Thank you for working so hard to promote TCM in your part of the > world. It is a wonderful system that is well-suited to treat many > people for very little money, especially if we can promote the > lifestyle and diet that comes along with it. Xinku ni le! > For your ulcer patients, as far as foods or nutrients are concerned, > there are some natural remedies available almost anywhere in the > world. For example, raw cabbage juice has been used and is > well-documented for treating peptic ulcers. Have pt drink 1 liter per > day of fresh juice, sipped throughout the day, for ten days. Since it > seems that the high glutamine content in cabbage juice is responsible > for its efficacy, you may be able to find glutamine in powder-form and > use that instead. Also, aloe vera, evening primrose oil (EPO), and > ground flaxseeds have healing properties due to various components and > mechanisms. Others may be harder to find where you are, so these may > be of some help, of course, in conjunction with a health-promoting > diet. Monitor, and advise pts concerning intake of fried foods, > coffee, alcohol, and other irritants. > > Good luck, and continue on your path, for the sake of all of us, > > Daniel C. Luthi > > > >>Any suggestions as to treat ulcers according to the logistic of > Chinese medicine with out the Chinese herbs they are not currently > available are still welcome, and thanks very much Matt Ferguson for > the comment of honey. > We use it and it helps on some ulcers (any acumoxa logistics?) I am > thinking out load that maybe a form of food diet could help rice soup > combinations?<< > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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